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Happy Birthday Mr. President!
Topic Started: Aug 4 2011, 12:55 PM (382 Views)
Snefaldia
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That's true, so I suppose we first have to trust Congress to cut spending and then raise taxes? I think the hardest part is "trust Congress." :angry:
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Krioval
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Kenny,Aug 6 2011
09:11 PM
Perhaps you missed the part where we are the ones who really pay for the tax increases? Not to mention the folly of assuming that Washington will raise taxes, ostensibly to pay off the debt, and not end up using it all on more wasteful spending. :rolleyes:

Problem is, Kenny, we also pay when taxes aren't raised, thanks to the penalty to the U.S. credit rating last week. If we want, as a country, to have a serious discussion about the deficit or spending in general, that's fine, but tying it to the stability of the American economy was stupid and it cost us money in the long run.
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Kenny
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I hardly think that Standard & Poor's, a group of wealthy bankers and investors, downgraded the U.S. credit rating because taxes weren't high enough. Nor do I think they suspected, even in their wildest dreams, that raising taxes would have resulted in more fiscal responsibility on the part of the government, because it has never happened before in the history of the republic. You can't give Washington more money during a crisis because they will inevitably spend it. Not to mention that the people that were demanding "more revenue" during the debt-limit negotiations were doing so to prevent deeper cuts, not to add to the savings.
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artichokeville
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Kenny,Aug 5 2011
05:24 PM

Alright, what I posted before, and quickly deleted, because I thought I misread your post, is that FICA/SSA (Social Security) sounds similar to what you're talking about. It's taken out of every paycheck, it counts as credit against your income taxes, and you get it back in small chunks once you retire or apply for federal disability benefits. "Social Security" means other things in other countries, but here it's a mandatory federal pension program.

Nah, it's not the same thing. It doesn't pay old age pensions or unemployment benefits; we had those long before we had superannuation. It's more like compulsory savings, but you/fate can affect how big a nest-egg it's going to be.

Whatever, I guess it's not all that relevant to anything going on in this thread.
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The Evil Smurfs
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Snefaldia,Aug 6 2011
07:45 PM
Absolutely expenses need to come down, and I would support a reorganization of Federal entitlements like Medicare and SS if the alternatives weren't just rightist "cut it all and let god sort 'em out."

It'd be nice if we could try something without the left braying about how we're throwing Grandma off a cliff.

Look, SS and Medicare are really simple. At least, the first step is: go back to how they were originally intended. When Social Security came out, the retirement age was one year beyond the average life expectancy. My father-in-law just turned 71 yesterday, and not only is he still kicking, but he's still working full time. He could have retired ages ago, but hasn't. If they would just raise the retirement age, even if it only counts for people under the age of 50, that would help immensely.

And, about the debt ceiling, this whole thing was insane. There weren't any cuts in spending. They reduced the increase. If you were promised a $5/hour raise and only got a $3.50/hour raise, would you say your pay was cut? No. You got a smaller raise. That's what happened in Washington.

Hell, look at Illinois. We're broke, we raised taxes by 66% and we considering putting casinos and slot machines everywhere. And what did Governor Quinn do today? He formed a panel to spend a year talking to themselves about wind power. We're going bankrupt and we're still forming bullshit committees to suck up even more money.

"But my account can't be overdrawn! I still have checks left!"
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Krioval,Aug 7 2011
12:45 PM
Problem is, Kenny, we also pay when taxes aren't raised, thanks to the penalty to the U.S. credit rating last week.

But that is not the reason why S&P downgraded U.S. Credit (and today Fannie and Freddie). One might argue that there was pressure that since they already downgraded European credits for similiar reasons it just wasn't fair not to downgrade the U.S.

The real reason is the problem inherant in the U.S. Congress. This can be explained by the old Popeye line from Whimpy "I'll galdly pay you Tuesday for a Hamburger today." One can argue that we need both tax increases and spending cuts. But the truth is that with the one exception that was dead on arrival in the senate, spending cuts were never on the table. What was on the table was reductions in spending increases in the "out years." Note Well, no congress can bind a future congress.

The Democrats pulled out the same bullshit they presented Reagan; tax increases today, and spending cuts tomorrow (and tomorrow never comes). We are still waiting fr the spending cuts promised to president Reagan. The Obama Llama wants to even spend more (in the form of "loans") to help the economy.

People are saying we are becomming Greece. Bullshit. Their congress at least is trying to make real cuts while the people so bloated and drugged on goverment spending riot in the streets. Ours is refusing to make any cuts while the people demand that they do.

In other news; Italy may be "too big to rescue."
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Krioval
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I did not say that not raising taxes led directly to the S&P downgrade. It was the refusal of the Tea Party Republicans to negotiate in good faith that tied down the House and pushed this issue to the brink of disaster, and that led to the downgrade.

A centrist compromise would have sailed through the Senate and been signed by Obama. Neither the Senate nor the President are terribly liberal and the Democrats in power right now aren't exactly the most pugilistic.

What needs to be done is a complete restructuring of how things are done in the U.S., including how the government *and* private industry operate. We need to rebuild our infrastructure and stop the dismantling of our manufacturing base. We need to stop our unilateral war policy and critically evaluate exactly what kind of military footprint we need in the world. We need to work to improve labor conditions around the world to correct the gross imbalance in global wages. We need to work to reduce income inequality in the U.S. as a part of this.

Of course, I'm not holding my breath in any case.
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Kenny
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Krioval,Aug 8 2011
10:29 AM
I did not say that not raising taxes led directly to the S&P downgrade.  It was the refusal of the Tea Party Republicans to negotiate in good faith that tied down the House and pushed this issue to the brink of disaster, and that led to the downgrade.

Actually, no, S&P downgraded the U.S. credit rating because the deal that went through did not assuage their doubts that the U.S. was serious about reversing its debt crisis. In their own words, "The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics." Meaning that they could have been mollified by deeper cuts. Meaning that we might not be in this mess if only we'd listened to "the terrorists" from the start, instead of indulging in over-the-top efforts to slander and de-legitimize them for having the nerve to disagree with President Obama.

Quote:
 
What needs to be done is a complete restructuring of how things are done in the U.S., including how the government *and* private industry operate. We need to rebuild our infrastructure and stop the dismantling of our manufacturing base. We need to stop our unilateral war policy and critically evaluate exactly what kind of military footprint we need in the world. We need to work to improve labor conditions around the world to correct the gross imbalance in global wages. We need to work to reduce income inequality in the U.S. as a part of this.

Will you be announcing for president soon, krio? Are you gonna be the left's Ron Paul? :P
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Kenny
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2...al-average.html

Kent Brockman: Professor, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?
Professor: Yes I would, Kent.
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Snefaldia
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Kenny,Aug 8 2011
12:07 PM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2...al-average.html

Kent Brockman: Professor, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?
Professor: Yes I would, Kent.

http://thesmartmoney.files.wordpress.com/2.../sc0003864f.jpg
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Krioval
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While we're posting articles that justify our positions, I'm rather partial to this piece on Slate. To sum up, the downgrade was due to the political situation, not the economic situation. Or to use a (not really) clever analogy, it's as if I could make my personal debt payments, but I decided to threaten not to, right up until the actual due date. Of course, nobody gives a damn about my ability to pay my bills in any large scale as I am not an economy unto myself.

I agree with the article I cited in that deep cuts are going to kill long-term growth. Who's going to stick around when the bridges keep collapsing, the roads turn to shit, and the power randomly goes off? I'm already seriously considering leaving the U.S. because its social policies are too conservative (on the federal level and in many states), but that's something that could be changed practically overnight. The economic situation is going to be resolved far more slowly.

Ultimately, there needs to be a centrist - read "compromise" - solution between economic liberals and conservatives. This means that when I, as a liberal, say that the SS age should be raised (or the whole program needs to be restructured), I need to hear a conservative make some grudging concessions about taxes. Otherwise we're all about equally fucked in the long run.

As for running for President, I'm too young. Maybe in five years, if the country is ready for a gay pagan who's lived in New York, Massachusetts, and California his entire life. :hahahaha:

Yeah, I didn't think so either.
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Zarquon Froods
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Kenny,Aug 8 2011
03:07 PM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2...al-average.html

Kent Brockman: Professor, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?
Professor: Yes I would, Kent.

We're still not in the danger zone, but it wouldn't hurt to stock up on ammo just in case. If she starts dipping below 10,000 I think we'll be in negative return territory that may persist for several years.

As to S&P, I think they made the right decision. We have got to quit borrowing money to pay off debts, we are on course to run a deficit that exceeds our GDP and that is a threshold you simply do not come back from. The money has got to come out of the budget, these nickle and dimes cuts are going to do it. I don't want to see a single tax hike until there's some hardcore debt reduction in place. Giving the government more money is like giving an addict another rock while telling him to work on kicking the habit.
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Zarquon Froods
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Krioval,Aug 8 2011
05:19 PM
I'm already seriously considering leaving the U.S. because its social policies are too conservative (on the federal level and in many states), but that's something that could be changed practically overnight.

Are you serious? A friend of mine's wife use to live in communist China and she has said on numerous occasions that we are more socialist than they ever thought about being.
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The Evil Smurfs
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Krioval,Aug 8 2011
02:19 PM
Who's going to stick around when the bridges keep collapsing, the roads turn to shit, and the power randomly goes off?

Or we could fund the things we're Constitutionally obligated to fund, and let other things (like, NEA, EPA, etc) take some cuts.

Or we could stick with the hyperbole, I guess. That's served us so well already.
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Retired WerePenguins
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Krioval,Aug 8 2011
06:19 PM
As for running for President, I'm too young. Maybe in five years, if the country is ready for a gay pagan who's lived in New York, Massachusetts, and California his entire life. :hahahaha:

Yeah, I didn't think so either.

Sorry, but you need to spend at least 5 years in Key West, Florida. :P
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