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Well I'm not done talking but my other thread was locked for some reason...
Topic Started: 21 Feb 2013 - 21:02 (132 Views)
Raven
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Zdenka
 
Quinn wrote:

Quote:

Could you direct me to where you derive your power over granting citizenship?


Quote:

But what gives the admins the unilateral power to make those decisions?


It's very simple. Being founder and admins is where we derive the power and what gives us the unilateral power to make those decisions. I don't notice you asking that about any other thing we've done, but if you did, the answer is the same.

It's my responsibility as founder to maintain the region's security. It's my and Keita's responsibility as admins to keep the peace in the forums. That is, quite frankly, our job.

Since Raven has now moved a nation back to the region -- as we clearly told him was the requirement the last time he asked -- Keita and I will now consider the matter of his citizenship. Comments by other parties are neither wanted nor helpful.

I am locking this thread now.
How is this any different from all the stuff you gave me crap about in West?
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Keita
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We gave you "crap" there because you:

1) Pretended to be on the outs with others on Westphalia
2) Took what we said OFF SITE on no official Westphalian-approved site and
3) Publically posted that.

In other words, Raven, you

1) Lied to us
2) Betrayed us

And now you want to come in here as if nothing happened and expect us to welcome you with open arms? You were told right from the start that we would CONSIDER making you welcome here. Note also that the only reason you're here now, according to Quinn, is that Westphalia is dying. You made trouble for us there and supported Mike (which is totally your right, no disputing that). You made your bed, as it were, and if we were nasty, we could have told you right off to go sleep in that bed you made for yourself. How are we different from what we did? We never lied to you, and offered you false support. We were honest with you, by telling you exactly why we were considering not allowing you to join. You didn't show much problem with that when we started talking to you about that. Then you moved your nation out. And now you want to come in here and tell US we're not treating you right? You're getting FAR more consideration that I personally feel you deserve.

Now, Zdenka and I discussed it, and we decided to grant you citizenship.
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Quinncunx
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Please Keita if you're going to quote me then quote me correctly. Don't take a portion of my statement and use it as you wish.
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Caninope
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Keita
22 Feb 2013 - 17:25
We gave you "crap" there because you:

1) Pretended to be on the outs with others on Westphalia
2) Took what we said OFF SITE on no official Westphalian-approved site and
3) Publically posted that.

In other words, Raven, you

1) Lied to us
2) Betrayed us

And now you want to come in here as if nothing happened and expect us to welcome you with open arms? You were told right from the start that we would CONSIDER making you welcome here. Note also that the only reason you're here now, according to Quinn, is that Westphalia is dying. You made trouble for us there and supported Mike (which is totally your right, no disputing that). You made your bed, as it were, and if we were nasty, we could have told you right off to go sleep in that bed you made for yourself. How are we different from what we did? We never lied to you, and offered you false support. We were honest with you, by telling you exactly why we were considering not allowing you to join. You didn't show much problem with that when we started talking to you about that. Then you moved your nation out. And now you want to come in here and tell US we're not treating you right? You're getting FAR more consideration that I personally feel you deserve.

Now, Zdenka and I discussed it, and we decided to grant you citizenship.
This all works on the presumption that it is not just the right of you and Zdenka, but indeed the duty, to decide what is best for the reason. I consider this false; thus you had no right to withhold citizenship from Raven as long as you did.

If this is true, you shouldn't have let emotions get in the way.

Either way, you're in the wrong, Keita.

EDIT: Accidentally referred to Raven as "Mike". I'm sorry, I really should get more sleep. :P
Edited by Caninope, 22 Feb 2013 - 17:50.
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Deleted User
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I disagree that Westphalia is dying. It has been around for quite a few years and is probably going to survive a lot longer than you guys expect.

Raven, in all senses of the law here SHOULD be welcomed back, as not welcoming him/her/it is rude and quite possibly illegal in the region.
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Cleverwhatever
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Coconut Horse
22 Feb 2013 - 22:46
I disagree that Westphalia is dying. It has been around for quite a few years and is probably going to survive a lot longer than you guys expect.
They have lost 40 or so members since Barrayar was formed, have four active topics a day and their founder is nowhere to be seen.
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Keita
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Caninope
22 Feb 2013 - 17:44
Keita
22 Feb 2013 - 17:25
We gave you "crap" there because you:

1) Pretended to be on the outs with others on Westphalia
2) Took what we said OFF SITE on no official Westphalian-approved site and
3) Publically posted that.

In other words, Raven, you

1) Lied to us
2) Betrayed us

And now you want to come in here as if nothing happened and expect us to welcome you with open arms? You were told right from the start that we would CONSIDER making you welcome here. Note also that the only reason you're here now, according to Quinn, is that Westphalia is dying. You made trouble for us there and supported Mike (which is totally your right, no disputing that). You made your bed, as it were, and if we were nasty, we could have told you right off to go sleep in that bed you made for yourself. How are we different from what we did? We never lied to you, and offered you false support. We were honest with you, by telling you exactly why we were considering not allowing you to join. You didn't show much problem with that when we started talking to you about that. Then you moved your nation out. And now you want to come in here and tell US we're not treating you right? You're getting FAR more consideration that I personally feel you deserve.

Now, Zdenka and I discussed it, and we decided to grant you citizenship.
This all works on the presumption that it is not just the right of you and Zdenka, but indeed the duty, to decide what is best for the reason. I consider this false; thus you had no right to withhold citizenship from Raven as long as you did.

If this is true, you shouldn't have let emotions get in the way.

Either way, you're in the wrong, Keita.

EDIT: Accidentally referred to Raven as "Mike". I'm sorry, I really should get more sleep. :P
Until such time as we do have a constitution in place, and specific policies in place regarding regional security, it is indeed our duty to make security decisions. Do we let a known troublemaker join or not? Would it be of benefit to the region, or not? Eventually, answering these questions will be the job of a minister (or whatever other type of government official we the region ultimately decides on) but until then, it remains our, meaning my and Zdenka's, job to do it. There's no time limit on approval of citizenship. There are a lot of regions who have waiting periods of 24 hours or more. From his application to us offering an answer was less than 24 hours. The fact that he didn't receive it when he initially requested it was his own fault. He removed his own nation, and thus was no longer eligible for it. As for me letting my emotions get in the way...if I did that, Caninope, Raven would not have been allowed to join at all. Probably neither would you have.
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Cleverwhatever
23 Feb 2013 - 19:08
Coconut Horse
22 Feb 2013 - 22:46
I disagree that Westphalia is dying. It has been around for quite a few years and is probably going to survive a lot longer than you guys expect.
They have lost 40 or so members since Barrayar was formed, have four active topics a day and their founder is nowhere to be seen.
That's because those were puppet nations. I'm sure they'll recruit if they have to.
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Cleverwhatever
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Coconut Horse
23 Feb 2013 - 20:57
Cleverwhatever
23 Feb 2013 - 19:08
Coconut Horse
22 Feb 2013 - 22:46
I disagree that Westphalia is dying. It has been around for quite a few years and is probably going to survive a lot longer than you guys expect.
They have lost 40 or so members since Barrayar was formed, have four active topics a day and their founder is nowhere to be seen.
That's because those were puppet nations. I'm sure they'll recruit if they have to.
Um, no they weren't. Many have CTE'd but many more have just left from lack of activity.
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Deleted User
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Possibly.. Do you intend Barrayar to be the new Westphalia?
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Cleverwhatever
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Coconut Horse
23 Feb 2013 - 21:00
Possibly.. Do you intend Barrayar to be the new Westphalia?
No. Barrayar should be Barrayar.
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Cleverwhatever
23 Feb 2013 - 21:48
Coconut Horse
23 Feb 2013 - 21:00
Possibly.. Do you intend Barrayar to be the new Westphalia?
No. Barrayar should be Barrayar.
I agree.
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