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Understanding where Anti-Cloti comes from
Topic Started: 14 May 2014 - 05:31 (367 Views)
Splash
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I have no beef with Clerith. To be honest I still see Clerith as the intended pairing of Disc 1. I could delve into reasons why I don't believe Clerith prevailed after the timeline of FF7 but let's save that essay for another day.

Has anyone ever been upset about the presence of Anti-Cloti material in love triangle debates ? Well I used to, but now I have come to a revelation that makes me understand why a small subset of fandom material attempts to attack the Cloti ship by disputing, denying and putting it down.

Basically if you want to postulate that Cloud is still in love with a woman who is deceased, and desires only a romantic relationship with her and no one else, there are two necessary and different conditions to prove.

1) You must prove that Cloud is not currently in a relationship with any other woman at this point.
2) Then you must prove that Cloud still holds romantic feelings for Aerith - who is deceased.

Clerith is a more difficult ship to prove. Proving that Cloud has no present connection to Tifa is difficult enough, no less proving that a man desires his previous lover so much that he cannot ever possibly enter into a loving relationship with anyone else. Now in regards to point number 1, we all know that the Cloud and Tifa pairing - and this particular girl > :tifa: is the one who poses the biggest threat to a nominal group of people who are adversely adamant that no one else can date Cloud, ever!

While I cannot speak for any other Cloti besides me, I find this ship so much easier to prove. All we need is one essential thing.

1) Evidence that Cloud and Tifa are currently together now.

We have lots of official material and content on our side. The fantastic thing about this ship too is that the seemingly high possibility (and to me the canon fact) that Clerith occurred in the past does not negate the Cloti ship whatsoever ! Woohoo :cool:

Most of us I hope can be cool with the idea that Clerith was a possibility, that Aerith and Cloud did share something cute during her life and still legitimately ship Cloti 100%. Our ship does not rely on destroying the other before it is valid in the present timeline. I'm sure many of us have had an ex romantic partner and do not deny that relationship's validity and occurrence just because we moved on from them no? : ) Cleriths are fine with the idea of Aerith moving on from Zack but don't deny the validity of the Zerith pairing. Then the same approach can apply to some Clotis like me who are at peace with the Clerith pairing.

Overall that's why I ship Cloti after FF7 Disc 1 . I guess I just want to do things the easy way :P . So next time you discover an Anti-Cloti post on love triangle debate fandom that upsets you realize that other people are completely entitled to their opinion, and that very negative arguments come from a place of fear.

Disclaimer: I am not having a go at Cleriths or trying to discourage any Clerith to stop shipping their pairing. The intention of this post is to inform newcomers to the fandom and confused Clotis about where the unusual incentive to disprove Cloud and Tifa so vehemently originates from.

Update: After observing some confusion in the comments I'd like to clarify that my definitive term for 'Anti-Cloti' is not equivalent to someone who supports Cloud and Aerith as a romantic pair. That is a common mistake. To me Anti-Cloti refers to somebody who decidedly demonstrates a negative and antagonistic attitude towards Cloud and Tifa's relationship by vilifying, ridiculing or misconstruing one or both characters in order to falsely present their interactions as abnormal, unhealthy and dysfunctional. Not perceiving Cloud and Tifa as having a romantic relationship or seeing them as close friends doesn't seem anti-anything in my opinion.

I've refined this essay for grammar, and also to make it abundantly clear that no Clerith is being accused...in case anyone is interested in rereading my 0.02 dollars worth of thought in this topic though I cannot fathom why.

Happy sane shipping everybody :tifa: :heart: :cloud:
Edited by Splash, 22 May 2014 - 04:54.
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Enigma
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I always felt that they used the romance between Cloud and Aerith in the first disc to turn people away from the possibility she might die. They even increased her scenes. Originally Aerith hardly had any scenes because she was planned to die so they made the first disc so huge with Aerith, mainly tieing her to Cloud and their relationship. I honestly wish they would have focused on Aerith's relationship with the other characters as well, especially TIFA!!!! I need more AerTi in my life.

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Alessa Gillespie
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as a multi-shipper i agree wholeheartedly. i feel personally that cloud and aerith shared something that is extremely important to both characters.

and regarding aerti, as i have been replaying the game there's a lot more that i appreciate about their relationship like their almost immediate friendship. out of all the pcs, tifa is the only one to make an attempt to try to get her away from tseng on the helicopter and one of the first things aerith does is reassure tifa that marlene is safe now. its so cute and important :wub:
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Enigma
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Alessa Gillespie
15 May 2014 - 11:29
as a multi-shipper i agree wholeheartedly. i feel personally that cloud and aerith shared something that is extremely important to both characters.

and regarding aerti, as i have been replaying the game there's a lot more that i appreciate about their relationship like their almost immediate friendship. out of all the pcs, tifa is the only one to make an attempt to try to get her away from tseng on the helicopter and one of the first things aerith does is reassure tifa that marlene is safe now. its so cute and important :wub:
I still wish more was shown between Aerith and Tifa. I would love to see them do girly shit together. They're the only two women in the group technically (not counting optional Yuffie)

It would have been great to see them talk about different things, like Aerith asking Tifa about martial arts and to show her a few moves, and Tifa wanting advice on how to be more outspoken like Aerith.

AerTi :wub:
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Dante
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Splash
14 May 2014 - 05:31
I have no beef with Clerith. To be honest I still see Clerith as the intended pairing of Disc 1. I could delve into reasons why I don't believe Clerith prevailed after the timeline of FF7 but let's save that essay for another day.

Perhaps some people have noticed that the Clerith fandom contains a lot of Anti-Cloti elements? Has anyone ever been upset about it? Well I used to, but now I have come to a revelation that makes me understand why some very dedicated Cleriths feel the need to attack the Cloti ship by disputing, denying and putting it down.

Basically if you want to postulate that Cloud is still in love with a woman who is deceased, and desires only a romantic relationship with her and no one else, there are two necessary and different conditions to prove.

1) You must prove that Cloud is not currently in a relationship with any other woman at this point.
2) Then you must prove that Cloud still holds romantic feelings for Aerith - who is deceased.

Clerith is a more difficult ship to prove. Proving that Cloud has no present connection to Tifa is difficult enough, no less proving that a man desires his ex-girlfriend so much that he cannot ever possibly enter into a loving relationship with anyone else! Now in regards to point number 1, we all know that Cloti - or more specifically this girl > :tifa: is the one who poses the biggest threats to some (note some!) Cleriths who want to insinuate that Cloud has feelings for no one and that he will never develop any other relationships in his life - except with his spirit flower girl. That is why folks, you will see more Anti-Cloti material in the Clerith pairing than the other way round.

While I cannot speak for any other Cloti besides me, I find this ship so much easier to prove. All we need is one essential thing.

1) Evidence that Cloud and Tifa are currently together now.

We have lots of official material and content on our side. The fantastic thing about this ship too is that the seemingly high possibility (and to me the canon fact) that Clerith occurred in the past does not negate the Cloti ship whatsoever ! Woohoo :cool:

Most of us I hope can be cool with the idea that Clerith was a possibility, that Aerith and Cloud did share something cute during her life and still legitimately ship Cloti 100%. Our ship does not rely on destroying the other before it is valid in the present timeline. I'm sure many of us have had an ex romantic partner and do not deny that relationship's validity and occurrence just because we moved on from them no? : ) Cleriths are fine with the idea of Aerith moving on from Zack but don't deny the validity of the Zerith pairing. Then the same approach can apply to some Clotis who are fine with and like the Clerith pairing for what is was.

Overall that's why I became and Ex-Clerith and ship Cloti. I guess I just want to do things the easy way :P . So next time you discover an Anti-Cloti post that upsets you realize that of course other people are completely entitled to their opinion, and that they are just attempting to prove their ship the harder way. That pairing requires it.

Disclaimer: I am not having a go at Cleriths or trying to discourage any Clerith to stop shipping their pairing. The intention of this post is to educate newcomers to the fandom and current Clotis who get upset as to where the incentive to disprove Cloud and Tifa (so vehemently sometimes) originates from.

Happy sane shipping everybody :tifa: :heart: :cloud:

Well as a Clerith I can tell you that a lot of "Anti-Cloti" commentary is likely coming out of frustration in LTD debates. I obviously don't support Cloti in FF7 or AC but I don't deny that Cloud loved Tifa back when they were kids and in Last Order and CC. I also think Zerith is sweet first love (although I don't support that Aerith loved Zack forever since she named Cloud as her lover (which I believe is an official translation now in French).

Kobito quote

"Cloud was her friend, her koibito — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected." (Case of Lifestream: White)

Well Clerith shippers like me in general support the idea that Cloti is not in a current relationship but Cloud had a crush on Tifa which occurred in the past which doesn't negate Clerith. Also we don't believe Aerith's death has stopped Clerith from loving her. They might not be able to physically be together but they are spiritually together (much like Edward & Anna, Ashe & Rasler etc) especially since Nomura said Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart. :heart:

Just wanted to give a bit of Clerith view. Cloti is very cute in Last Order though. :cool:
Edited by Dante, 20 May 2014 - 12:36.
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Alessa Gillespie
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Dante
20 May 2014 - 12:33
Well as a Clerith I can tell you that a lot of "Anti-Cloti" commentary is likely coming out of frustration in LTD debates. I obviously don't support Cloti in FF7 or AC but I don't deny that Cloud loved Tifa back when they were kids and in Last Order and CC. I also think Zerith is sweet first love (although I don't support that Aerith loved Zack forever since she named Cloud as her lover (which I believe is an official translation now in French).

Kobito quote

"Cloud was her friend, her koibito — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected." (Case of Lifestream: White)

Well Clerith shippers like me in general support the idea that Cloti is not in a current relationship but Cloud had a crush on Tifa which occurred in the past which doesn't negate Clerith. Also we don't believe Aerith's death has stopped Clerith from loving her. They might not be able to physically be together but they are spiritually together (much like Edward & Anna, Ashe & Rasler etc) especially since Nomura said Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart. :heart:

Just wanted to give a bit of Clerith view. Cloti is very cute in Last Order though. :cool:
ive always known that the aerith quote said lover (ok admittedly not always it was only after i took japanese class way back in high school where i learned jp sentence structure, looked up koibito everywhere, possibly even had one horrifically embarrassing encounter with the teacher but this was back during the tifa-as-koibito debates were occurring) but anyways

now i was especially interested in the aerith being engraved in cloud's heart thing, because ive only ever seen that quote associated with the jp dirge of cerberus guide (or was it game insert manual? god i really cant keep all these resources straight) but i don't know whether nomura wrote that or not i think largely because i typically don't assume important info like that would be in the manual

(although admittedly sometimes they do that and spoil people who look at the manual but w h a t e v e r)
Edited by Alessa Gillespie, 20 May 2014 - 19:12.
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Splash
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Clerith doesn't negate Cloti. Cloud and Tifa being together now like Nojima said doesn't negate or deny the lovely spiritual bond that Cloud shares with Aerith. I think their scenes in AC were very cute and lovely.

Also that koibito quote is valid for both Aerith and Tifa: 'Tifa is a sweetheart/koibito/amanat, mother and ally in battle' is not a universal statement. The unspoken connective person in the quote is Cloud - she is The sweetheart of Cloud, the mother of the children they are both raising together and his ally in battle. SE tends to subtly lump this character with Cloud all the time as with Aerith.

To say Tifa's koibito quote is universal and applicable to other people besides Cloud is fallacious because one could interpret universally that 'she is a sweetheart to Shinra, a mother to Hojo and an ally of SOLDIER' which is canonly false :P So the Clerith koibito quote as valid as it is cannot stop me from seeing Cloti as a current relationship now because the Tifa quote,ultimania material and canon events just pop up like glaring neon signs in my head.

To me that's the luxury of shipping Cloti. I have no beef with Clerith, I think Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart and she is his koibito and still legimitately ship Cloti as a current romantic couple 100%. Tifa does not want to break Clerith's spiritual bond, she thanks Aerith for being with Cloud at the end of ACC. No one unless severely cruel would expect their current boyfriend to deny their past romantic relationships or kill all tender feelings and positive memories for someone dear to them who was killed.

Cloti signing off (:
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Splash
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Far out I'm not.
I just want to point out that not all Cleriths are Anti Cloti. I wouldn't dub you (Dante) Anti Cloti for believing that the Clerith bond exists and that she is engraved in his heart etc etc. I believe that even as a Cloti.

Anti Cloti to me is denying Tifa's koibito quote while insisting Aerith's one, throwing shit on Tifa, bitching that the Cloti relationship in FF7 and ACC is dysfunctional, abusive and one sided, saying Cloud doesn't care for Tifa AT ALL or insisting that he ran away from Seventh Heaven because he was miserable with his family. I think only a smaaal subset of shippers in Clerith subscribe to that view, but when they do they do it loud and tactlessly, upsetting many emotionally vested Clotis and misleading newbies to the fandom.

Being unable to perceive the romantic bond and relationship between Cloud and Tifa now doesn't make you Anti Cloti, just as my seeing them two romantically together now and in the future doesn't make me Anti-Clerith.

TLDR: Clerith and Anti Cloti are not the same thing. Believing that Cloud and Aerith still love each other is not the same thing as throwing lies and negative vitriol at the Cloti pairing.

You guys are safe from the wrath of the Nomura and his dedicated Cloti minions.

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Enigma
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Actually no. It doesn't say that Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart. The official English translation says he will never forget her. The "engraved in his heart forever" is a clerith fan translation much like the english translation of kobito being translated into "beloved" is a cloti fan translation.
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Splash
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Oh no not this translation war thing. My underlying point of the replies to Dante and Alessa was that any Clerithkoibitocentric quote cannot be used to disprove Cloti. Any Clotikoibitocentric quote cannot be used to disprove Clerith. Yes I'm biased towards fan translation of Cloti (Tifa = a beloved someone = Cloud's beloved someone) and I see that as supporting my pairing but I am not going to bother disputing the Aerith engraved in his heart thing. I don't want to. I really feel like that's not necessary, I am happy to acknowledge Clerith because it doesn't threaten my currently preferred pairing. That's the intent of the original essay.

And now I realize bringing up that koibito thing was completely unecessary and irrelevant to this topic. Dante was using that quote to show that Aerith moved on from Zack to Cloud. She (or he? sorry Dante!) thinks that Cloud moved on from Tifa after CC. I think Cloud moved on from Aerith after FF7 Disc 1. Cool beans to us all!

This is a Cloti forum. I'm here to ship this pair everyone. Just so you know :) again and again. May the lifestream be with us all.
Edited by Splash, 21 May 2014 - 09:27.
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