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| Blood Bonds (Informational) | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 27. February 2014, 08:47 (1,023 Views) | |
| Lynx | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 08:47 Post #1 |
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Lord Torchwood
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I'm editing this post to reflect the correct information from the first post, so as not to confuse anyone with the erroneous information I originally had in my head when I started this conversation. As a result there's a decent chance people won't understand the conversation that followed. Either way, the quote was made by someone later in the thread and contained the correct information. If you drink vitae, 1 point. Drink vitae again 2 points. Up til now, no conflicts, have as many as you want. Drink vitae again 3 points, ALL other bonds get snapped. Start drinking from other sources, those bonds get reformed up to 2 points.
Edited by Lynx, Wednesday, 18. June 2014, 21:47.
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color code 00CC00 #BC8F8F: Japanese ![]() “if you consider a woman less pure after you've touched her maybe you should take a look at your hands” Permanent Fangs - Flaw Sharpened teeth from fangs back - Frenzy Mark | |
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| Sawyer | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 09:29 Post #2 |
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Friendly Neighborhood Vampire
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Chat box questions/discussion were specifically focused on the issue of kindred to kindred blood bonds, so I'm going to focus on addressing that. Generation is not used on this site as an indicator of vampiric power. This has been discussed among mods, and because it isn't a required field on applications, and because many people don't know/care about/use generation at all, it isn't relevant except for flavor reasons. That being said, it does not affect the length of blood bonds. Likewise, willpower is not used on this site because it's a sheeted attribute. The tabletop explanations simply do not apply on this forum because we lack the context necessary to utilize them. The answer I gave in chat box is precisely how blood bonds between kindred are handled on DM. I'll supply a quote for a bit of clarification for anybody that missed it.
So what does 'very, very focused' mean? That's up to your discretion as writers and storytellers, and we do not intend to hold your hands through that process. Work within the recommended time frame, and do it in ways that make sense for your characters and for the situation they find themselves in. Six months is a hard minimum. To reach that six month point, the kindred under the influence of the bond should be aware of the bond, resentful of the bond, and have significant reason and motivation to break the bond. It will not simply go away. They must resist the temptation to drink from their regent for the entirety of those six months. Six months in game, coincidentally, is roughly analogous to six months (or more, depending on thread pace) of real life time. Truly exceptional is the circumstance in which six months is all it takes. For most bonds, particularly those in which the party in question is unaware of the full consequences of their thralldom, a year without exposure to the regent's vitae is required. Time in between those two extremes is, again, up to player discretion. Be writers. Value the story above all else. Play true to character, and true to the situation. We'll treat you like adults. Do not give us reason to have to dictate every minute detail of the roleplaying experience. This time frame applies individually to each step of the bond. A three year bond, unless intentionally dissolved, will take a full three years to fully dissipate, gradually dropping from three, to two, to finally one step. Any contact with the vitae of the regent, again, will renew the bond. This process is grueling and emotionally devastating to the thrall- particularly at the third step, they are subconsciously drawn to the regent and cannot simply give up on the blood. At that point, even for fellow kindred, it is an addiction. It will not be an easy process. For the most part, you are stuck with those you are fully bonded to. In summation: a blood bond, particularly a three step blood bond, is a supreme commitment. They should not be entered into lightly. And appropriately, they cannot be dissolved lightly. Edited by Sawyer, Thursday, 27. February 2014, 11:07.
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| Lynx | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 13:50 Post #3 |
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Lord Torchwood
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I'm not arguing. But that doesn't make any sense. You're saying that because we don't use generation (which is critical for determining how things like Dominate work but forget that for now, people can write that out) every vampire is considered to be as strong as Caine himself in terms of blood bonds? How do you explain Tavin then? He's a 100 year old ghoul who spent... how many decades bound to his original master before she started loaning him out to other vampires as their starter ghoul? Under the rules you just describes, he doesn't work. Because if he spent 10 years bound to his original master, he'd be bound for another 10 years after they passed him to another vampire. Which invalidates the story he's already got set up where he was with 12 masters alone just before Margo. Saying a 3 year bond takes 3 years to dissolve completely invalidates the vampire's tendency to trade and pass ghouls between each other. Because the bond works the same between a vampire and ghoul and a vampire and a vampire, only it can go both ways between vampires; which doesn't mean it has too. There's making things about writing and dramatic power, then there's breaking the logical mechanics that based the system on. The weaker the vampire the weaker the bond that forms is an inherently logical progression of their blood system. It follows the very nature of V:tM which says the farther away you are from Caine, the farther you are from the root of vampire power and the weaker your abilities. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that all vampire 3 point bonds dissolve after 1 month if they're not being reinforced because that'd be setting the default generation for all vampires on the board to be 12th generation, the starter level in the old books? Because we're NOT super powerful vampire masters of the universe? |
color code 00CC00 #BC8F8F: Japanese ![]() “if you consider a woman less pure after you've touched her maybe you should take a look at your hands” Permanent Fangs - Flaw Sharpened teeth from fangs back - Frenzy Mark | |
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| Jhael | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 14:21 Post #4 |
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Prince Blucher's Dinner (still not quite house trained)
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As a ghoul, I've had the lore discussion on these exact questions and the firm consensus was that drinking off another vampire three times is not enough to break that first strong bond. I believe the logic behind this is that if that were possible, vampires could too easily steal each other's ghouls willy nilly. |
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| Lynx | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 14:24 Post #5 |
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Lord Torchwood
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Well, as long as the bond is being reinforced there are only two things I know that can break it. Tremere Ritual and Vaulderie for a Sabbat Pack, the viniculim breaks all bonds. But a lapsed bond does fade over time. As far as I understood the book and it's rulings a bond needs to actually be renewed each month or it starts to decay, but it can't be broken until that "time" period has passed. So for a 12th gen vampire the month would have to pass before it would drop down to a 2nd degree bond. So, if your last drink was in February, it would be April, before your bond went down to 2 steps and ANY time in that period the 3rd step bond could be renewed. |
color code 00CC00 #BC8F8F: Japanese ![]() “if you consider a woman less pure after you've touched her maybe you should take a look at your hands” Permanent Fangs - Flaw Sharpened teeth from fangs back - Frenzy Mark | |
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| Jason B. Dahlgren | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 14:39 Post #6 |
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För Kung och Fosterland
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I still don't understand how some attributed are considered "sheeted" and hence do not apply to the game while others are, by that definition, not sheeted and so does apply. It is a Vampire the Masquerade game. Sure, you don't need to be an expert as far as playing in a VtM games goes, but a basic understanding of the rules and the mechanics and the setting should be required. How can willpower not be an stat that applies where as say strength is? How on Earth can generation not be a part of it when it a is a vital core mechanic to the whole game and how it works? How can Dominate work with no basic understanding of willpower score or generation? How cna presence work with no idea of willpower score? How is a person's strength a more forun friendly stat than generation? I'm asking because I'm starting to get frustrated with how some things are just waved off as if there's no consideration for their value worth or actual affect on a game. And I'm probably going to be labelled a right on bitch after this but, anyone wanting to play in WoD, regardless of which game, whether it is Mage, Hunter, Werewolf, Shapeshifters, Wraith, Mummy, Changeling, Demons or Vampire: should at the very least take the time to open the core rule book for said game. |
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Swedish - English - French - Latin Amber wolf eyes - Permanent fangs - Claw-like nails | |
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| Machine | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 15:25 Post #7 |
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I am no one now, only agony
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I'll just say that Link has a point. Otherwise Presence and Dominate are OP. We should add our Gen and Willpower to the sheets. |
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| Lynx | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 15:50 Post #8 |
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Lord Torchwood
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I think we should be careful to all stay friendly. Things like being kidnapped as a ghoul and having your bond stolen, is unfortunately, one of the things that is so miserable about being a ghoul. They also get traded back and forth between vampires as currency from time to time. But let's not be confrontational or take sides in what should be a calm discussion of what people are confused on, or what they hope to see. We don't want to see people getting frustrated by a lack of communication and leaving the board. |
color code 00CC00 #BC8F8F: Japanese ![]() “if you consider a woman less pure after you've touched her maybe you should take a look at your hands” Permanent Fangs - Flaw Sharpened teeth from fangs back - Frenzy Mark | |
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| Church | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 15:53 Post #9 |
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Putting the 'fun' in 'dysfunctional'
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First of all, people need to understand and appreciate that this board hasn't changed in a while. As in, me and Mael made it with the understanding that we wanted purely a writing RPG and nothing to do with the stats sheets. We actually wanted people to come to the board with no knowledge whatsoever of V:TM - this was for beginners. As I have said several times, this has probably caused more problems than it's worth, but at the same time we never did anything to change it. The current Mods have now taken it upon themselves to make this board a damned sight better and implement certain changes to make things more balanced. And on that note, understand how freaking difficult it is. Generations and willpower? Great idea. Put in the game before on the understanding that we mods would actually give a bracket for generation based on character age, clan and background then roll a dice within that. What did we get for it? New applicants saying that no they should've been lower - their character has lower on sheet - not interested in joining. This legitimately happened on about ten different instances so we removed it. Willpower admittedly I dont think we ever did, but it links to the fact that it's all or nothing. Even if generation were on here, dominate is not a definite success. It's contested like just about everything else. It costs blood points like most disciplines do. It's not just Generation and willpower but every stat on the sheet is necessary to play it out in the conventional way. Which is fine in some circumstances, and people do so, I've never had a problem with it, someone who has no idea what they're doing, has joined a writing RPG, and doesn't have a grasp how sheets/rolls works might. So while what you're saying is true, it wasn't what it started out as. The mods are working on shit like this - please give them a break. |
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| Lynx | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 16:01 Post #10 |
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Lord Torchwood
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Church, your avatar is broken. That makes me sad. I don't think anyone wants to rant at the Mods. Sometimes things come out a bit strongly and we all need to remember that this is communicating over text without body language or tone of voice and it's easy to end up sounding a lot more hardass than it actually is. This board comes up as the number 1 selection of google for Vampire: The Masquerade Forum RPG. That makes me damn proud to be playing on it. I know I didn't have anything to do with it getting there, but it makes me happy. I think there are ways to balance out the mechanics and the writing that don't require a full sheeted board. The moderators already take more time examining the sheet of an older vampire than they do a younger. The reason is simple, the more life experience and power a vampire has, the more detail should go into their history and life. Which translates well to generation. Not to mention putting a cap on Generation, like say "Nothing lower than 10th generation" does away with most of the difficulties there. Willpower can be summed up on a scale of 1 - 5 really. Easily Swayed, Average, Stubborn, Never Changes Mind, Master of Self-Control (or whatever you want to call it) and people who have never read the books don't even need to worry about how they'd distribute the points. They could just pick which of those descriptors fit the profile they were building. The writing/mechanics don't have to be insurmountable opponents. Just need to find the right interface that allows people to pick what they want. I'm sure we could find volunteers to help the Mods write things out as well, if they want help. |
color code 00CC00 #BC8F8F: Japanese ![]() “if you consider a woman less pure after you've touched her maybe you should take a look at your hands” Permanent Fangs - Flaw Sharpened teeth from fangs back - Frenzy Mark | |
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| Ayla Ayhan | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 16:02 Post #11 |
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Childe
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Okay this is somewhat my opinion but Gen was/is one of White Wolf's dumber mechanics... it encourages munckining because its so very cheap but so very influential and largely can't change it. Among the worst is that it makes you flat immune to Dominate from your lessers no ifs ands or buts. Though okay it was one of the many ways WW was playing the "we are being patently unfair to be sure you loose" card. Which is okay in a chronicle with an ending where you tag team the OP elder but is problematic in a (presumably) more open ended sandbox like this place where only some people are playing on the same team. However getting rid of it ISN'T HARD at all. Since we are dumping the dice we are dumping what makes adjudicates its very succes in the first place how does it succeed? So you just apply the same principle you use for avoid violence (which Dominate is!) that it doesn't work unless you allow it. Dodge or soak a bullet with your corpse bod... well either willpower right through Dominate/Prescence for awhile or RP how its sufficiently against your nature to not take hold. With a bit more warning/suspicion you avert your attention or say start making noise so you can't be given orders. And if you can avoid it once Dominate you can literally not hear in the heat and speed of battle easy enough, and Presence is too indistinct outside Dread Gaze. Conversely that ineffectiveness against direct violence and the idea that Mind Rape inspires completely justified self-defense should restrain players from spamming it against other players. Because those that do can and should get a stake in the heart for their crimes. Less Mechanics mean MORE protection, not less. Because there's not as clear a basis to insist you do anything at all. Now sure someone goes around being effectively immune all the time that's a problem too (but required with Gen thus only an all or nothing pissing contest!) but that's what moderation is for. Same as dodging every bullet in a gunfight. Alright now back on topic, since I have it in PDF I'll copypasta the Blood Bond section of the V20 core. I'm aware of no changes between V20 and Revised here but anyways: "Blood Bonds Some stuff in their is pretty explicit and fairly little handles dice. Blood bonds are intended to be super serious things. EDIT: This is also pretty pertinent: http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Crone_%28VTM%29 Caine himself (!) falling is a fairly big piece of lore. Or at least that's the general interpretation... IC. Edited by Ayla Ayhan, Thursday, 27. February 2014, 16:25.
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| Lynx | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 16:28 Post #12 |
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Lord Torchwood
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I don't have a problem with ignoring generation for the most part. As long as Dominate gets worded so that it is a contested power and side steps that time bomb. I don't even have a problem with blood bonds having a set limit to how long they take to expire. But setting them as if every vampire is Caine and then extending that time limit based on how long a person has been bound does lead to breaking certain facets of the game. Nobody is going to hand a ghoul to another vampire as repayment of a boon for instance, if it's going to take a YEAR to make that ghoul loyal. Who would accept something they couldn't trust for a year as payment? And for longer term ghouls, it gets even worse. If Tavin was bound to his original mistress for 50 years, then he's still bound to her today, even if she gave him away 50 years ago. It would make more sense to just set it at like... 3 months. Which by 3rd edition rules would claim the generation was 9th (which is average the background is STUPIDLY cheap and I never liked how easy it was to power level that way) so if you stop feeding a ghoul in February it would be June before they could be 3 step bound to someone else, because it would be June before your bond dropped to a 2 pointer. That would allow for some conflict to remain, but still allow the kind of horse trading that vampires do with valuable ghouls. |
color code 00CC00 #BC8F8F: Japanese ![]() “if you consider a woman less pure after you've touched her maybe you should take a look at your hands” Permanent Fangs - Flaw Sharpened teeth from fangs back - Frenzy Mark | |
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| Ayla Ayhan | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 16:44 Post #13 |
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Childe
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While I'd hate to say its literally word for word near as I can tell nothing changed between Revised and V20. I don't have a copyable pdf of VtM Revise but pgs 218-221 if anyone wants to double check. If an older edition was by Gen I've never heard that but I don't know 1st and 2nd worth a damn. As for trading ghouls...I think "well yeah exactly" would be the official answer on the trust issue. You have to hope that "obey this person now" command (if its even there) holds up through the transition period with the secondary bond... and of course the clock arguably resets at any meeting plus secret orders would totally subvert that. That the official problem, we vary here but how much is the question. A couple of months is still fairly dramatic and impractical to say break and a careful regnant can basically prevent any attempt anyways because the person you love and need most in the world said not to try and escape your love and tell ASAP should someone try to help with that... blood bonds suck like that. I can't speak to what the board might consider appropriate really, just lay down what the lore says. We already vary pretty fiercely but where is always a question. |
![]() "From shadows, we'll descend upon the world, take back what you stole" -[Ayla's Theme]- | |
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| Mac | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 17:09 Post #14 |
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Goddess of Fuck and War
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I'm so confused, I just woke up... But how is generation being applied to blood bonds? Generation has no affect on blood bonds, it's willpower that's used to break blood bonds. Bond, not being re-enforced takes a year to wither on it's own. So if you have a one night stand randomly, you have a year bond to that vampire you drank from. After a year the bond itself snaps on it's own and goes away. If you -want- it to go away faster, you can break it in six months. Fully avoiding, ignoring, and resisting it. Usually the time table to break a bond is 12 months - one month for each WP. We don't use WP, so this was heavily discussed and six months was agreed on. It is equivalent to the average WP rating in most games, 6. We're using it for simplicity. I don't play requiem but is the generation/blood bond thing a req thing that's just getting confused? It happens. |
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| Lynx | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 17:16 Post #15 |
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Lord Torchwood
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I apparently have my head up my ass. I could have sworn I found something that showed a chart. Maybe it was player generated on a random wiki. Maybe it was Blood Potency and Requim, I dunno. But I am apparently talking entirely out of my ass. I am wrong. I am sorry. I don't know where I got this wrong information. I'm not being sarcastic. I've reread the books and I'm genuinely in the wrong and I'm apologizing for get people riled up on the issue. I feel bad. I am frustrated with myself. |
color code 00CC00 #BC8F8F: Japanese ![]() “if you consider a woman less pure after you've touched her maybe you should take a look at your hands” Permanent Fangs - Flaw Sharpened teeth from fangs back - Frenzy Mark | |
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| Jhael | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 17:24 Post #16 |
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Prince Blucher's Dinner (still not quite house trained)
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What Ayla posted is precisely what I read and had been going off of as a ghoul. I've been trying to play that bonds are very emotionally intense and not like casual friendship bracelets. I would think this is something vampires would be very careful with. |
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| Alarik | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 17:31 Post #17 |
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"Papers, Please."
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What Jhael said. I completely support the 6 month hard minimum / 1 year normal minimum and needing a reason to let the bond laps. Blood bonds are a very intense experience and should be, IMO! |
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| Lynx | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 17:52 Post #18 |
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Lord Torchwood
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I was and am completely wrong about my understanding of the whole generational thing. But who ever said that the bonds WEREN'T intensely emotional things? |
color code 00CC00 #BC8F8F: Japanese ![]() “if you consider a woman less pure after you've touched her maybe you should take a look at your hands” Permanent Fangs - Flaw Sharpened teeth from fangs back - Frenzy Mark | |
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| Aguirre Efrain Maddox | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 19:56 Post #19 |
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Mouse
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Basically, amen to the mods, Ayla and Church. Even without generation on our sheets it caused huge problems in the past and has since been ruled irrelevant. Thanks for the quotes Ayla, Sawyer and I have done quite a lot of studying over that section in particular xD |
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| Sawyer | Thursday, 27. February 2014, 21:31 Post #20 |
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Friendly Neighborhood Vampire
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Loki has the right of it. As I understand it, Mael's vision, a vision which we haven't let go of for the future of the site, is that someone can come here after playing Bloodlines, or because they just like vampires, or because a friend said it was a fun website, and have just as easy a transition as someone with twenty years of familiarity with the tabletop game. It isn't necessary to know the mechanics of Vampire the Masquerade to write a story in its universe. Knowledge of the tabletop rules system is not a requirement, because this isn't the tabletop system. It's a vastly simplified adaptation of it. Right now that still can be a rough transition because our informative resources are sparse and pretty spread out between subforums, and we're working on rectifying that. But adding more details for an outsider to keep track of is not on the agenda, and frankly, those details aren't necessary or integral to the sort of forum we are. We don't have attributes or abilities. We don't have virtues or willpower. All of those, instead, should be measured by your character's background, experience, and actions in game. Illustrate those traits through roleplay, not through referring back to a sheet. Think of the person you are roleplaying just as you would a character you might write in a novel or fanfiction. They don't need a sheet, because the things that make them who they are can be illustrated through their character development. They aren't good at something because they have four dots; they're good at something because they've extensively studied it, or are naturally talented in it, or it's a skill they've utilized throughout their working career. They aren't resistant to coercion because they have eight willpower; they're resistant to coercion because they're a stubborn bastard who doesn't give up easily, and that's the essence of who they are. Write true to character. In terms of people clashing in combat, or in cases when disciplines like dominate are used, I expect people to handle themselves maturely and use their judgement as writers. Don't take success for granted; sometimes you'll succeed, sometimes you'll fail. Just focus on what tells the best story. If that sort of give and take compromise doesn't work, try other ways of resolving the situation. I'm okay with two players deciding to resolve a combat situation through unofficial sheets and rolls (I've done that, too), just as I'm okay with people resolving the situation through making an OOC plan of how the scene will go down, or through a coin flip, or through just letting the target of a player's action decide whether it works or not. Most combat scenes run smoothly without having to resort to stats. Above all, communication is key. All of this is kind of unrelated to the initial post topic, but it needs to be said because complaints and confusion seem to crop up again and again. |
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