Vampire The Masquerade RPG
Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]


The Times
The Kindred Chronicle
Key Figures
THE MONSTER OF EALING
Last night, several people reported the sighting of a "screaming red monster" in a quiet neighbourhood of Ealing. After a power shortage in the area, a building caught fire. It was then when, what was described as a "man shaped, footless creature" emerged from the flames, leaping, running, and screaming. One woman has told our reporters that the man had "teeth like a wolf, and the face of the devil". Police officers are still trying to get to the bottom of this; neither the power shortage nor the fire have still been explained. A spokesperson from Scotland Yard has stated that the "so called monster" might be a wounded person, escaping the fire.

TRAGEDY IN TOOLEY STREET
The police has found the bodies of three TFL workers in the construction site at Tooley Street. One of their colleagues raised the alarms last week, when the three workers didn't attend their shifts. The bodies of the men have been found in a deep hole, uncovered by the refurbishment works that are taking place in the area. According to the Police, the bodies were horribly mutilated, which has led to the wildest speculations. The names of the three workers are being kept anonymous, following the wishes of their families.

HOROSCOPE
MARCH 8 - PISCES
You are used to making sacrifices, to prioritising the happiness of others before yours. Even though that is a noble attitude, there are times in life where the only healthy alternative is to embrace your own selfishness and allow yourself some enjoyment. Reserve one hour per day to do something you really like. Treat yourself! Your colour for this month is blue.
Echoes from the past ring back into London. Their intensity increases until they are deafening. What once was a faded memory of a glorious time, now becomes a shocking reality. The consequences of actions taken decades ago ripple into the present, altering the lives of everybody in the City. Unguided and blind, Kindred wander around, trying to make profit out of the reigning chaos.


The appearance of four mysterious figures turned the city upside down. Mistrust and jealousy became the official currency of London. Serpents and fiends rise to power, misdirecting the blaming eyes of the Camarilla towards imaginary enemies. Only those with clear vision and the ability to trust each other strive, while the rest run towards a shallow grave.



Across The Board
Current Chronicle: Dragons and Lions; Pride and Fire
Current Season: Spring
Controlling Sect: Camarilla



Index
Getting Started
General Information
Central London
North London
East London
West London
South London
Miscellaneous
Out of Character


Population: 31

Camarilla
Anarchs
Other
Ventrue: 1
Toreador: 5 (6)
Brujah: 2 (3)
Malkavian: 7
Tremere: 2
Nosferatu: 3
Gangrel: 1
Ventrue: 1
Toreador: 0
Brujah: 2 (3)
Malkavian: 0
Nosferatu: 1
Gangrel: 1
Setites: 5
Sabbat: ???


THE CAMARILLA

Prince

Nobody

Sheriff
Meredith Furlong
Hounds
Robyne Sheridan
Rosella Marie Allain


Keeper of Elysium
Davvad Bisset

Grand Harpy
Catherine Wilke

Primogen
Ventrue: Marcus Antonio Russo
Brujah: Thomas Krusen
Gangrel: Alexa Mallik
Malkavian: Ellora Reese
Tremere: Hannah Sundling
Toreador: Arsenio Pozzi
Nosferatu: Dogan Khojak



ANARCHS

Baron

Khoza

Baronets
Enfield: Leslie
Haringey & Barnet: Clarice Harris
Harrow: Jelena Korolenko

Register -:- New Posts -:- Active Topics -:- The Staff -:- Contact Us
Welcome To The Night

You find yourself in London on a dreary, foggy night like any other. But what lurks in the shadows is the stuff of fantasies and nightmares, far from mortal reality.

This game uses the cursed and immortal vampiric condition as a backdrop to explore themes of morality, depravity, the human condition, salvation, and personal horror. We are a writing and roleplaying community dedicated to telling complex and engaging stories.

Your fate is your own. Mingle among the ivory-tower elite in the Camarilla, join the fight of the discontented and chaotic Anarch rabble, or set out independently and attempt to survive in London's nighttime underworld. Anything is possible in our World of Darkness.

Create Your Account!

If you're already a member, please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
Obfuscate Discussion & Clarification; Moving from the Standard Presentation/Blythe House Security thread
Topic Started: Friday, 27. June 2014, 19:48 (850 Views)
Pidge
Member Avatar
Sheriff Pro Tempore
* * * * *
Moving the Obfuscate clarification and discussion over here so we can keep the Blythe House security thread related to Blythe House security.

Background summary: There was a misunderstanding (primarily on my part) about the interaction of Obfuscate, especially Mask of a Thousand Faces, with imaging technology. I am moving the discussion here in order to (1) keep everything in one place, and (2) help provide clarification on the new ruling.

Disclaimer: Yep, I'm personally invested in how Obfuscate works, but I'm okay with the mods' ruling! Just want to be 100% sure we all understand the technicalities.

The following quotes are directly copy/pasted from the other thread. I skipped a couple of non-relevant posts (just requests for a change of venue), but all text below is original.

AND A REMINDER: If you want to add to this discussion, please do, but please keep it civil! We're all in this together.

Pidge
 
Thoughts from the peanut gallery:

My first question is what kind of body scanners you're using - millimeter wave or backscatter - and then how heavily you've modded them to not conform to airport scanner regulations. Millimeter wave scanners are more commonly used in the U.S. now, but they don't achieve anywhere near the resolution of backscatter scanners. Neither would damage a vampire, from what I've read, and both would see through Obfuscate, but at current (publicly known) technology levels they're essentially useless for actual facial detail. A good Mask that's similar to the underlying person in height, built, and presence of a face could be enough.

And if you're storing high-res images, a certain vampire-and-human-rights officer may have something to say about how privacy works. If you wanted to bust Obfuscate and keep useful images on file, why not just take headshots with an ordinary camera?


Alarik
 
To answer your last question first: Alarik will only indulge Jane so far. Having high resolution, full-body images of Kindred is a vital intelligence asset, and every Camarilla Kindred has to visit the Blythe House at least once. The opportunity to get accurate measurements pretty much overrides any security concerns. Especially since vampires are pretty much unchanging.

Blythe House security cameras btw already provide 'regular' camera footage that can be captured.

I cannot really speak on millimetre wave vs backscatter scanners. The latter are better, yes, but they were also recently banned in the EU. At least in airports. Fundamentally, though, I do not believe that the difference really matters since they both capture a vague picture that can detect hidden materials. (Though not as well as the makers would have you believe.)

The trouble with Obfuscate is that it is a psychological tool that would affect the person watching the pictures until the Kindred moves out of range, at which point the 'real' image would be shown. A way to subvert this would be to place the person watching the pictures somewhere else. The security room in the basement has cameras and might just constitute 'out of range', especially when the security room and the entrance cross-reference what the person looks like.

This method assumes full knowledge of how Obfuscate works, though, and I am not assuming that Alarik has it. Pidge might share that nugget, because Henderson sure hasn't. ;)


Pidge
 
I think backscatter scanners were also recently banned (or at least reduced in use) in the U.S. The difference is that backscatter uses X-rays, which are an ionizing radiation type, while millimeter wave uses non-ionizing radiation. I say they'd be interchangeable for Kindred because it's not like cell death is an issue any more, but if you have kine coming through, millimeter would be more humane.

I would have to ask for a DM call on the 'range' aspect of Obfuscate, as I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere in my own research - distance is not addressed, but time makes a difference. (Please share your source?) As in, if a person is watching Obfuscation through an electronic device, if they are seeing it live their mind is fooled, but if they are watching a recording it is not.

My understanding of most airport body scanners is that a static image is collected and sent to a monitor somewhere, either near or far from the machine, and that image is what's used to determine whether the subject is a threat. If that's the case with your body scanners, the static image would bust Obfuscate.

As for the CCTV cameras, I did want to bring that up - no matter how far away the watcher is sitting, if the feed is live, they should be fooled by Obfuscate. (Again, this is based on my understanding as a player, and I am happy to defer to DMs on the nuance here.) However, if the feed is delayed, they should no longer be fooled. My recommendation would be to pipe in two streams at once: (1) a live stream, to ensure that the camera-watchers see what's happening as it happens, and (2) a delayed stream (requires DM ruling for how delayed it has to be), so that the camera-watchers see a recording rather than live video, which will bust Obfuscate.

And yes, for this discussion we're assuming full knowledge of how Obfuscate works, which Pidge is probably closer to than Alarik - but even she doesn't know everything. Perhaps a practical demonstration would help test the system...

(I'm coming at this as a generalized theoretical 'how do you design a security system for vampires' question, rather than 'how would Alarik design a security system for these particular vampires'. It's a good question!)


Alarik
 
Fun Fact: the risk of getting cancer from airport scanners is minute, but because of the great number of people travelling by air, more people still die each year as the result of airport-radiation-exposure than of actual terrorism.

On to the matter at hand: I am iffy about exploiting the 'live' vs 'recorded' difference as a counter to obfuscate. If you've seen the lag in real life advertisement it becomes plain that you could programme an occulus set at the proper level of delay to be an infallible obfuscate-detector. And that just seems to me like the kind of cheesy technological solution that we should avoid!

Some of the elements of Blythe Houses' design already prevent Nossies and other creepers from sneaking around unseen. The lasers trip 'trap doors' for example. This has happened when people just posted leaving without an escort, for example. Same with the hand-palm print and regular-key using doors that cannot just be opened. The fact that they would be opening would be registered electronically.

Countering Mask of a Thousand Faces is harder, and it should be harder. Alarik knows of the existence of this Discipline and is quite paranoid about it. As a result he himself always makes sure he goes through the whole security procedure every time he enters OR leaves the Blythe House. No exceptions. (Helps that he is a bit OCD about these things.)

Having information about a person on record would allow the guards (theoretically, at least) to notice small discrepancies, either in behaviour or in appearances.


Jane Marlow
 
I talked this over with other mods, and the decision was that cameras with distant monitors are actually a pretty perfect counter for Obfuscate. As long as you are not in the same room as the Obfuscated individual, be it Mask or conventional Obfuscate, you are not affected by the power. So the distant viewers watching the live feed, even without a delay, would see the true form of any Nosferatu entering Blythe House.

This of course does not take into account the False Reflection merit, but few Nossies have that.


Pidge
 
Margo: You know where to find her!

Alarik: That ad is great and I see what you're getting at about the infallible Obfuscate detector being a bit of a laser gun. However, it's also (a) a real buildable piece of technology, and (b) not without downsides, as shown in the ad.

Jane: Thank you for the ruling. I will digest this and add it to my next writeup.

I agree that distant monitors are a much simpler fix for Blythe House's security system, though in general they would significantly diminish the ability of Nosferatu to go really anywhere in public - as far as I know remote monitors are much more standard, as security protocols go, than lagged video. (e.g. convenience stores, museums, libraries...) (I'm okay with this ruling, I just might need to retcon a thread or three to account for it. If there's a canon basis, could someone please point out the source for me? I may just have missed it the first time around.)

Would a delay still have the same effect? As in, would a recording or static image still break Obfuscate, as per canon?

If yes: Now we really are talking about the perfect Ob-buster - you can't fool the remote viewer, because they're remote, and you can't fool a nearby viewer, as long as they're looking through something with a lag. Nothing could get past. The only people fooled would be direct viewers in the room with either no technology filter or a live technology filter (e.g. holding up a phone camera). This would be true for Mask as well.


TheJersy
 
Well, in some ways, it might be rather fitting to describe Obfuscate as "Reversed Presence" (instead of attracting attention, it diverts it), so I'd use similar guidelines for both of these powers.

Then again, it's magic. It would be kinda dumb if just some simple technological gimmick could completely negate it's usefulness, so I wouldn't particulary mind, if there was some degree of bleed-through from the disciplines onto the media that capture them (Fans of Doctor Who might recall that "Everything that holds the image of a Weeping Angel becomes a Weeping Angel itself").


Sawyer
 
There isn't bleeding through of obfuscate into media- that's why our clan flaw is a clan flaw, after all. Many Nossies are completely incapable of moving around in modern society, hence the massive subterranean complexes and their importance. There are ways to circumvent this- Henderson wraps himself up like a mummy, Sawyer has the false reflection merit, and presumably Pidge still looks human enough not to be an absolute masquerade breech. But it's difficult for Nosferatu by design, especially considering the omnipresence of cameras in our society and the speed at which images virally propagate.

That said- if you're close enough to the obfuscate user that you could, presumably, see them directly, you're close enough to fool. Even if you're looking through a camera or a phone, you're still being fooled because obfuscate is solely a mind trick, and your mind is being tricked. In another room and especially on another floor, this mind trick has no way of translating. So someone monitoring a feed elsewhere in Blythe House, as Jane said, would see the obfuscate user's true physical form.

Additional note: there'd also be no way to distinguish through the feed alone whether someone was using cloak of shadows or mask of a thousand faces- you'd just see the person as they were. There are probably ways to circumvent that as well, but you'd have to be creative in doing so.


Lessa
 
If there was a computer set up in the recieving area so that the person/people watching the cameras could send a screenshot to them, would that image be affected by Obfuscate while the person doing the Obfuscate is in the room? Or would it being a static image sent from elsewhere negate that? I think that would be a possible answer to Sawyer's additinal note.


English (#9966FF) Spanish (orange)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pidge
Member Avatar
Sheriff Pro Tempore
* * * * *
All of that being said, here's my position:

I think I now understand the reasoning behind the mods' ruling and I am of course happy to comply.

However, due to my previous [mis]understanding of the Obfuscate/technology intersection, I made some calls OOC that affected Pidge's behavior IC in existing threads and may be problematic and/or Masquerade-breaching when viewed in light of the updated ruling. Sawyer is right, Pidge still looks pretty human, but the kind of human who really should be in a hospital bed in a medically induced coma. If kine see her they'd be more likely to call an ambulance than the police.

It would be easiest for me to cover my own butt if Pidge is allowed to retroactively take the False Reflection merit, as she is not dumb and this is entirely player error. I won't do so without mod approval, and if that's an unreasonable route, please let me know so I can reason through my options. (PMs appreciated, I have sporadic board access this weekend.)

Thanks again to everyone working on clarifying this hiccup.
English (#9966FF) Spanish (orange)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alarik
"Papers, Please."
* * * * * * *
For Alarik the ruling is very good news! For Vanth... not so much! I'm actually wondering how this would work with break-ins and the like where the security camera footage might be used the next day to determine who did it.

Being similarly unaware of the impact of this until this ruling I wonder how Vanth/Isaac should try to counter this. (And in all likelihood WOULD have countered this since his mug isn't plastered all over London wanted boards.) Should he just wear a scarf or mask over his real face when breaking in to things? Or would disabling the cameras still help somehow?
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jane Marlow
Member Avatar
Vampire Damage Control Professional
* * * * * *
Pidge: I had actually assumed Pidge had the False Reflection merit, when I was reading her presentation thread, and I think it makes sense for her since she's a child of a very techie age.

I'm now kind of imagining False Reflection as an increasingly common merit among young Nosferatu. A kind of instinctive adaptation to a more monitored era. And also a merit that allows PC Nossies to be more ability to be active and social in London. Which is good.

Alarik: Disabling cameras would work well, since it doesn't matter if Obfuscate works on cameras if the cameras aren't working.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alarik
"Papers, Please."
* * * * * * *
Jane: wouldn't most cameras nowadays transmit immediately to a computer somewhere? Or would it still have a tape inside? I know modern cameras work wirelessly but most old stuff could still have tapes I suppose. I just don't know OOC! Vanth probably would, given his interests.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jane Marlow
Member Avatar
Vampire Damage Control Professional
* * * * * *
Alarik: I think most modern security cameras are digital. I would assume that most still use local storage mechanisms--transmitting to a computer somewhere in the building instead of to an internal tape. Not sure though. I'd have to research.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Malia
Member Avatar
I'm a Queen
* * * * *
Vanth could be wandering around with a Cheshire Cat mask under his Obfuscation and be constantly prone to breaking CCTV cameras. *lol* nobody would be able to pin it on him and nobody would see his mask if he put a face over it
English Norwegian Spanish I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Posted Image


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alarik
"Papers, Please."
* * * * * * *
That's the thing, though. Mask is Obfuscate too. Wouldn't it also be negated?
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Malia
Member Avatar
I'm a Queen
* * * * *
No I meant like a physical mask. If he walked around wearing like a V for Vendetta mask on his face at all times, nobody would know as long as he had a mask of 1000 faces on over top of his physical mask. So the video would just catch someone in a generic "Anonymous" mask.

He could project the illusion of a normal face over his physical mask.
English Norwegian Spanish I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Posted Image


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alarik
"Papers, Please."
* * * * * * *
I like that. And the Guy Fawkes mask is very Vanth-y. Mind if I appropriate it?
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Malia
Member Avatar
I'm a Queen
* * * * *
Be my guest!
English Norwegian Spanish I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Posted Image


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pidge
Member Avatar
Sheriff Pro Tempore
* * * * *
Jane: If you're okay with that, I'm okay with that. If the people who've been threading with me are okay with the retcon, let's just say Pidge has had False Reflection all along. (omg now she can take selfies A WHOLE NEW WORLD HAS OPENED MWAHAHAHA)

Though you bring up an interesting topic - selection or heritability for merits and flaws. Adaptation is a nice idea, especially as we do have dramatically changing conditions for unlife since the inception of VtM, but how would a merit actually become more common? Is there some mechanism that might encourage its development? They're supposed to be randomly distributed throughout the population, I think, but in reality they're always up to players' discretion at point buy and sheet creation and some end up much more common for no reason other than utility. (See: anything to do with hearing or seeing things from far away, especially in a LARP.)

Malia: I hereby declare officially that, unless otherwise noted, Pidge is always wearing pajamas and fuzzy slippers under her Mask. Why wear actual nice clothes when you could be comfy 24/7? (This is, of course, a corollary to "What's the point of having Mask if you don't use it to look cute?")
English (#9966FF) Spanish (orange)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alarik
"Papers, Please."
* * * * * * *
That is adorable. But also a little freaky if her mask should fail.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Malia
Member Avatar
I'm a Queen
* * * * *
Actually it's kind of brilliant. If her mask fails and she looks like she's been brutally beaten with multiple broken bones and such, and she's in soft comfortable pajamas it'll look like someone kidnapped her from a recovery ward.
English Norwegian Spanish I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
Posted Image


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pidge
Member Avatar
Sheriff Pro Tempore
* * * * *
Malia: My thoughts exactly. Killing two birds with one stone - she's comfy as hell, and she has a slightly more plausible explanation for existing than "I'm the ugly kind of vampire"!
English (#9966FF) Spanish (orange)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheJersy
Member Avatar
A Fierce Creature of the Night! *RawR!*
* * * *
BTW: Is Mask of 1000 faces a no cost / no upkeep thing? Can you just activate it when you wake up and then walk around with it throughout the whole night?
Posted Image
~Thread Involvement Diary~
My Blog
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clarice Harris
Member Avatar
Sexually abused by a Jew
* * * * *
Source - patman.org
 
Level 3 • Mask of the Thousand Faces

Roll: Manipulation + Acting, difficulty 7
The vampire may assume another appearance. This is only in the minds of others, and often others will see different forms. This power may not usually be used for impersonation.
1 suc. A little different. She could still be picked from a police lineup.
2 suc. A bit more different. Descriptions vary.
3 suc. The desired appearance is successfully broadcast.
4 suc. Appearance, movements, and mannerisms are all radically different.
5 suc. Even race or gender can be altered.

This site is listing exact blood costs, so I guess entire Obfuscate is cost-free, like reverse Presence
Posted Image
Dialogue colors
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sawyer
Member Avatar
Friendly Neighborhood Vampire
* * * * * *
Mask of A Thousand Faces requires blood to activate, but does not cost blood to upkeep. It can, indeed, fail or have varying degrees of success, particularly if you aren't accustomed to using the power. You might just end up 'forgettable'- people will see your face, but fail to remember any details about it if someone asks. You might end up effectively 'blank', a blur in their memory, and people won't be able to agree on your appearance if question. Or you could suceed completely and appear to others however you envision yourself as appearing. Only if you're very skilled or very lucky could you successfully mask size, gender, or other radical physical differences.

Blood can make the difference between a truly human, convincing mask and failure. The chart Orissa posted isn't exactly in line with the core rulebook's take on things, but it's a similar concept. More blood burned will enhance the illusion, but be mindful of the cost and play it accordingly.

It's also important to mention that blood and skill aside, a person posing as another will still have to convincingly mimic the mannerisms and behavior of the impersonated. This is a discipline that, contrary to most obfuscate powers, relies on the social abilities and acting skills of the vampire in question.

Other obfuscate powers do not require blood. This is in line with the costs in the core rulebook.
Posted Image
Dialogue color = #9F4438
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clarice Harris
Member Avatar
Sexually abused by a Jew
* * * * *
What I found in V20 rulebook:
Mask of 1000 Faces has no blood cost unless desired mask would raise Appearance rating. Then vampire has to spend 1 point of blood for every Appearance level gained. It would mean any Nosferatu willing to socialize would have to spend at least 1-2 blood points, while most of Malkavians and Assamites would do fine without use of blood

3rd edition mentions no blood cost on any Obfuscate power up to level 5
Posted Image
Dialogue colors
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alarik
"Papers, Please."
* * * * * * *
Poor Sawyer. So cute he has to drain half his veins to get his original looks :(
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums. Reliable service with over 8 years of experience.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Roleplay Discussions · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1

Affiliate links:


RPG-D