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Why 50% MSSjin Goku > SSjinG3 Trunks
Topic Started: Jun 7 2015, 11:25:02 AM (1,785 Views)
Pakl
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Whipedkillsmiled
Jun 10 2015, 02:29:46 PM
Im not gunna quote your thing cuz its too long so..its never said his VS trunks state is his warm up state.I can say the same and claim ur making excuses
I never said they weren't warming up I said when they're powered up they are NOT warming up hence they do not have calm rounded eyes.
The look in his eyes changed... is that it so when you go serious your eyes stay happy and calm? No they change with your mood.
Yes Vegeta thought Goku's max was 50% what does that have to do with anything? He said show me your strength. Thats not future tense that's present so he's obviously talking bout that moment.
Trunks being surmised with the whole gaining strength without loosing speed thing is not an excuse since it was obvious Goku had trained in a totally different way. Which was mastering SSJ.
Your talking like 50% is a big deal a x2 difference his huge and stomp worthy 50% can totally be warm up. Whatchu think he's gunna use only 25% this is a warm up not a joke


Cell states he was warming up vs Vegeta and then fights Trunks without powering up so yes he was using his warming up state
Burden of proof on yours to say otherwise

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.1-4
No.16: “Cell really did get considerably stronger…But Vegeta’s still better than him at everything!”
Vegeta: “Damn you. You’re not taking this seriously.”
Cell: “I told you I was warming-up.”

Yes when they power up they are serious and Goku has no round eyes... I agree so whats your point?

Of course they change with te mood but why would it worth mentioning it if it has no real meaning? Goku's eyes also change from round to narrow.. That's wy it's mentioned.. It has a reason

I think your English understanding is not all that good.. "show me your strength" is not future tense but the meaning of the sentence is Vegeta wanting to see Goku's true power which he was not using at that point.. Plus, they were said to be just warming up and eveyone knows it... Vegeta knows Goku was not at full power despite thinking his max is his 50% so therefore Goku was using much less than that...

Trunks didn't see Goku powering up but only sensed him so how can he know if Goku was not using some grade method?? Do you think Trunks sensing Goku without seeing him is gonna think about the way he was able to power up? Of couse not.. He was merely focused about his power and it shocked him

But his warm up state is the same as his initial state after he existed the RoSaT... Why is it so hard to understand it... It's the same natural SSjin state Piccolo and Vegeta explained to Trunks

The whole 50% thing was just a power up a demonstration to Korrin.. if t was not to build drama for the CG, Goku would have shown his full power to Korrin... Again, his basic evel whch he used the entire 10 days and his warm up with Cell was his initial Post RoSaT state which was shown in the design

CG MSSjin Goku >> 50% MSSjin Goku (power up demonstration) >> Initial Post Rosat MSSjin Goku/10 days MSSjin Goku/Warmed Up MSSjin Goku ~ Warmed Up Perfect Cell

All three are the same basic level Goku used until the Cell Games.. Half of his power was just a power up demonstration like Goku using Kaioken vs Ginyu lol
Edited by Pakl, Jun 10 2015, 03:31:47 PM.
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Pakl
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Kyo
Jun 10 2015, 03:06:15 PM
I see what you're saying, but they're not really round. Definitely not like they are here. And, as I said, if you'd like to speak of the difference between kind-of-narrow-kind-of-not and narrow (nowhere did I deny that there was a difference; if you'd reread my post, I explicitly acknowledge it), do note that Goku was powering up for the entirety of his 50% display.
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Plus, the fact Vegeta knows Goku is not serious
Prior to the fight he's thinking to himself something like "Show us your power, Kakorot," so he already knows that Goku on Karin's ≠ full power Goku. Goku could be 50% and there'd be no contradiction.

I repeat (you've yet to address this point so I can assume you've no counter?), unless you want me to believe that SSJG2 Vegeta would beat Warm Up Cell, you've got some explaining to do as to how Resting Goku puts up the fight he does.
You are comparing Anime images to Manga's

Anyway, Goku's eyes being round in his 10 days state and his warm up vs Cell is still there the whole time.. Not really... Him saying it proves Goku was not at half of his power because he thinks it's his max.. You interpret this in the wrong way and I will tell you why.. I already posted this:

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first Cell first
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

Vegeta thinks he is the strongest... We know he is much weaker than Goku's max and yet, he still thinks he is stronger than Goku (he is stronger than 50% Goku)

That proves Vegeta thought Goku's max was his 50% and that my interpretation of Goku being at less than half power vs Cell and Vegeta saying "show us your strength" refers to his half power.. Plus, after Goku powers up to max Vegeta says "That's his full power?" with the question mark, it proves he didn't expect Goku to be stronger than what he thought he was hence half of his power


What didn't I address? I addressed everything you posted..

Goku comes out of the RoSaT which is described by Piccolo to be natural SSjin.. He has round eyes and lacks aura... He has the same thing vs Cell and during the days... His half power was just a demonstration to Korrin a power up

That's like saying Goku using Kaioken X2 vs Ginyu is also what he stays after without any proof
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Kyo
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Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
You are comparing Anime images to Manga's
That was the image you posted, the evidence you were going by. Let's avoid those anime pics, then, yeah?
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Anyway, Goku's eyes being round in his 10 days state and his warm up vs Cell is still there the whole time
I pointed out that this ain't right already, harping on it anymore doesn't look like it'll change much since you're just repeating yourself so I'll leave it be.
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Him saying it proves Goku was not at half of his power because he thinks it's his max..You interpret this in the wrong way
I don't think so. No one's gonna say "show me your power" if they think they know that person's power already. Come on now.
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Vegeta thinks he is the strongest... We know he is much weaker than Goku's max and yet, he still thinks he is stronger than Goku (he is stronger than 50% Goku)

That proves Vegeta thought Goku's max was his 50%
And just what is stopping me from proposing that 100% Goku > Vegeta > Vegeta's guess for Goku's full power > 50% Goku instead?
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Plus, after Goku powers up to max Vegeta says "That's his full power?" with the question mark, it proves he didn't expect Goku to be stronger
Wrong, it proves that he didn't expect Goku to be that strong. If Vegeta's prior statement didn't exist then you'd be right, but sadly, it does.

When Vegeta says, “So this is his true power?...” it sounds more like he was surprised at how high it is, not that there was a "true power" that he wasn't even aware of. Same goes for Trunks, though that's not as relevant.
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
What didn't I address? I addressed everything you posted..
I repeat: unless you want me to believe that SSJG2 Vegeta would beat Warm Up Cell, you've got some explaining to do as to how Resting Goku puts up the fight he does.
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
That's like saying Goku using Kaioken X2 vs Ginyu is also what he stays after without any proof
Now you're jumping the gun and putting words in my mouth. Please read my posts more thoroughly.
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Dioxide


Goku's powered down state is evidently not more powerful Vegeta since Goku had to him that his true power was powerful. The same suppressed stated which merely stalemated Cell
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Mike
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warm up Cell ~ 50% Goku > Grade 2 Vegeta > resting/warming up Goku, because Vegeta didn't notice Goku was stronger than him until Goku powered up to 50%, that's what you're implying, Kyo? (I didn't read through all of the posts.)
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Kyo
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Basically. Goku even told him that he was much stronger and Vegeta didn't believe him. I'm just using that as an easy reference point though; the fact that Piccolo calls it an "ordinary, everyday level" already means that it's pissweak in general.

Guliver's idea rides entirely on the notion that Goku stayed at this "resting level." I don't care where you've got 50% Goku at (though it seems I've been dragged into that debate as well), but that notion is false because Goku would've powered up no matter what, whether we saw it or not.
Edited by Kyo, Jun 10 2015, 09:42:52 PM.
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Lightsworn
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Goku could have varying levels of his suppressed state. The Goku who fought Cell doesn't have to be equal to the Goku who was talking to Vegeta
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Papasmurf
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Suck my dick.

He still had to physically power up to reach 50% though, so I doubt he raised his power that far during his warm-up with Cell
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Kyo
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Lightsworn
Jun 10 2015, 10:04:39 PM
Goku could have varying levels of his suppressed state.
Yup. He could've used 25% against Cell or something. Just not whatever minuscule % he was when he exited the RST in my book.
Kenshi
Jun 10 2015, 10:08:53 PM
He still had to physically power up to reach 50% though, so I doubt he raised his power that far during his warm-up with Cell
You can't say that for sure, his intent was to power up to full until Karin begged him to stop.
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Dioxide


What argument is there anyway for 50% SSJ Goku being superior to Trunks?
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Whipedkillsmiled
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Warming up at Vegeta's level, warming up at Goku's level.
Yeah and he thought that up until he powered up so it's fine to think Goku was at 50%
Show me your strength is like saying show me what you got this is usually said before the fight starts and is implying that moment. Plus why would he say show me what you got if he knew his Fp was 50% he obviously also had doubts in his thoughts
Yeah he thought because of his different training method there is a great possibility that he is obtaining this power without loosing speed. Also Goku's 50% is stronger than his G2 cell claimed his G3 was stronger than himself (trunks didnt know he was supressed) so if Goku's 50% IS stronger than his G2 but weaker than his G3 he thought there was a Chance
He could beat cell.
Yes eyes change with mood that's why Goku's eyes weren't round when he powered up. Saying the look in his eyes changed is like saying He has an angry look in his eye.
That's not his warm up state that's his everyday life initial state he stayed that way in the 7 days in which he was not warming up.
We've never seen what his 50% looks like when he's not powered up ofc he's gunna have aura while powering up. But we've never got a look of it post power up.
Power chain is your opinion.
Yes he demonstrated his 50% so? Doesn't mean he can't use it in battle.
Edited by Whipedkillsmiled, Jun 11 2015, 02:31:30 AM.
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Demon Saiyan
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Perhaps when Vegeta said "Show me your strength kakarot" imply that Goku can get stronger than 50%, but Vegeta thinks he's superior to Goku and Cell.
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Whipedkillsmiled
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Saiyan
Jun 11 2015, 02:33:02 AM
Perhaps when Vegeta said "Show me your strength kakarot" imply that Goku can get stronger than 50%, but Vegeta thinks he's superior to Goku and Cell.
Yes he thought he was stronger but saying show me your strength shows he was not totally confident and had a notion of disbelief. And yeah that is implying he believes Goku's full strength is higher than 50%
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Demon Saiyan
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That mean Goku and Vegeta gap should be bigger something like this

Vegeta: 75
Expected Cell: 70
Expected Goku: 65
Piccolo: 55
50% Goku: 50
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Pakl
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Kyo
Jun 10 2015, 06:55:11 PM
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
You are comparing Anime images to Manga's
That was the image you posted, the evidence you were going by. Let's avoid those anime pics, then, yeah?
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Anyway, Goku's eyes being round in his 10 days state and his warm up vs Cell is still there the whole time
I pointed out that this ain't right already, harping on it anymore doesn't look like it'll change much since you're just repeating yourself so I'll leave it be.
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Him saying it proves Goku was not at half of his power because he thinks it's his max..You interpret this in the wrong way
I don't think so. No one's gonna say "show me your power" if they think they know that person's power already. Come on now.
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Vegeta thinks he is the strongest... We know he is much weaker than Goku's max and yet, he still thinks he is stronger than Goku (he is stronger than 50% Goku)

That proves Vegeta thought Goku's max was his 50%
And just what is stopping me from proposing that 100% Goku > Vegeta > Vegeta's guess for Goku's full power > 50% Goku instead?
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
Plus, after Goku powers up to max Vegeta says "That's his full power?" with the question mark, it proves he didn't expect Goku to be stronger
Wrong, it proves that he didn't expect Goku to be that strong. If Vegeta's prior statement didn't exist then you'd be right, but sadly, it does.

When Vegeta says, “So this is his true power?...” it sounds more like he was surprised at how high it is, not that there was a "true power" that he wasn't even aware of. Same goes for Trunks, though that's not as relevant.
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
What didn't I address? I addressed everything you posted..
I repeat: unless you want me to believe that SSJG2 Vegeta would beat Warm Up Cell, you've got some explaining to do as to how Resting Goku puts up the fight he does.
Guliver
Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM
That's like saying Goku using Kaioken X2 vs Ginyu is also what he stays after without any proof
Now you're jumping the gun and putting words in my mouth. Please read my posts more thoroughly.
I mean you can't compare the Manga image to the Anime one but can use both as evidence..

How is it not right? Goku existed the RoSaT and Piccolo and Vegeta described them as SSjins in a natural state.. It's like normal Goku as a SSjin but not powered up.. That's why I call him Natural MSSjin and that's what he uses the entire time until powering up vs Cell.. It's shown in the design I showed which you keep ignoring... The round eyes ae there only for Goku when he rested and warmed up vs Cell but not when he powered up.. How did you prove it wrong?

I already proved my interpretation is right based on the quotes Vegeta said before the CG started.. "show me your strength" can mean Goku was suppressed and not at full power like Vegeta thought which was half of his power

You are grasping at straw now... Come on, Vegeta is not THAT much ahead of 50% Goku so him thinking Goku still has some power but he is still noticeably stronger than him is wrong

More like you interept this quote in the wrong way.. He thinks Goku was suppressed and waits to see his full power which he showed to Korrin.. Get over it already

Your interpretation is not backed up but mine is... He could of been surprised that Goku had more power than what he sensed and also surprised at his power... That proves nothing

I don't understand... How does my post makes you think I say SSjinG 2 Vegeta is stronger than Warm Up Cell?? Resting Goku is the Goku who existed the RoSaT as a natural Sjin that everyone thought it was his normal state.. It was the basic power he uses the whole time till the CG and that is weaker than half of his power as he powered up to Korrin and said he used just half of it...

CG MSSjin Goku > 50% MSSjin Goku (short power up demonstration to Korrin) > SSjinG 3 Trunks > Warm Up Perfect Cell ~ Initial Post RoSaT/10 days MSSjin/Warmed Up Goku > SSjinG 2 Vegeta

What's the big deal? And again, the 50% was just a power up demonstration of Goku's real power.. His basic power which he uses the entire time since he exsited the RoSaT and until he powered up vs Cell is his natural state which is < half of his power... Gohan is also shown like Goku with that natural state until he powers up vs Cell.. That's their suppressed state..

I am not putting words in your mouth. People think Goku used half of his power vs Cell because he did vs Korin but ignore the fact it was just a power up demonstration... He and Gohan use the same basic level they did since they existed the RoSaT until the CG. The art shows it as well.. You keep ignoring the concept art..


You think resting Goku is weaker than Vegeta because Vegeta didn't think Goku was stronger until he powered up? Well thee are several flaws with that

Vegeta is the guy who always ignores sensing ki and judges it by the look of the fighter.. He didn't know Cell was stronger than him until his kick got tanked.. Cell put a fake ki but he later showed his wamed up state which is >> Vegeta and Vegeta only realized he is weaker when his kick got tanked...

Secondly, it was just to build up a dramatic effect like his fight with Cell when he doesn't realize his inferiority until fighting or sensing a huge power up.. In Cell's case it was his kick getting tanked and in Goku's case it was the huge power up for Korrin

Your entire argument hold on Vegeta not admitting inferiority to Goku before he powered up but it has some flaws and contradicted by many things I posted like statements and the obvious at I showed... Plus, Piccolo calling it natural base power is not in reference of it being weak but in reference to show that they mastered the SSjin to the point of having no strain of evil heart

Goku varying his ki is an assumption.. We know he used just one level the entire time until his fight with Cell and that level was less than half of his power... Plus, everyone else knew Goku was not serious vs Cell and they all thought Goku's max was half his power
Edited by Pakl, Jun 11 2015, 04:59:05 AM.
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Pakl
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Dioxide
Jun 10 2015, 09:16:51 PM
Goku's powered down state is evidently not more powerful Vegeta since Goku had to him that his true power was powerful. The same suppressed stated which merely stalemated Cell
I don't understand your English.. Goku's natural basic state is more powerful than Vegeta because he fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol

What evidence is there for Trunks being weaker than Goku? I posted absolutely all the statements and the art which conclude it

Goku while warming up with Cell is in his natural basic state which is shown by the art and the 10 days and that level is much weaker than half of his power..
Saiyan, what's the point of powering up to 50 and not 65?? when you power up but still has some power left it means you have a lot of power left... Vegeta would not been thinking Goku has more power unless he was FAAR stronger than him... That's grasping at straws.. What I said of him thinking half of Goku's power was his max fits best
Edited by Pakl, Jun 11 2015, 05:01:53 AM.
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Dioxide


Guliver
Jun 11 2015, 04:47:40 AM
Dioxide
Jun 10 2015, 09:16:51 PM
Goku's powered down state is evidently not more powerful Vegeta since Goku had to him that his true power was powerful. The same suppressed stated which merely stalemated Cell
I don't understand your English.. Goku's natural basic state is more powerful than Vegeta because he fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol

What evidence is there for Trunks being weaker than Goku? I posted absolutely all the statements and the art which conclude it

Goku while warming up with Cell is in his natural basic state which is shown by the art and the 10 days and that level is much weaker than half of his power..
Saiyan, what's the point of powering up to 50 and not 65?? when you power up but still has some power left it means you have a lot of power left... Vegeta would not been thinking Goku has more power unless he was FAAR stronger than him... That's grasping at straws.. What I said of him thinking half of Goku's power was his max fits best
That is not the case. Vegeta didn't know Goku was more powerful than him in his suppressed state an needed to be be told by him that his true power is far beyond him.

Quote:
 
Vegeta: “What was that…? I don’t like that…The way you said that made it sound like you’re saying that your true ability is greater than mine…”
Goku: “Yeah, a whole lot greater, I think.”
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Pakl
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Dioxide
Jun 11 2015, 12:07:06 PM
Guliver
Jun 11 2015, 04:47:40 AM
Dioxide
Jun 10 2015, 09:16:51 PM
Goku's powered down state is evidently not more powerful Vegeta since Goku had to him that his true power was powerful. The same suppressed stated which merely stalemated Cell
I don't understand your English.. Goku's natural basic state is more powerful than Vegeta because he fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol

What evidence is there for Trunks being weaker than Goku? I posted absolutely all the statements and the art which conclude it

Goku while warming up with Cell is in his natural basic state which is shown by the art and the 10 days and that level is much weaker than half of his power..
Saiyan, what's the point of powering up to 50 and not 65?? when you power up but still has some power left it means you have a lot of power left... Vegeta would not been thinking Goku has more power unless he was FAAR stronger than him... That's grasping at straws.. What I said of him thinking half of Goku's power was his max fits best
That is not the case. Vegeta didn't know Goku was more powerful than him in his suppressed state an needed to be be told by him that his true power is far beyond him.

Quote:
 
Vegeta: “What was that…? I don’t like that…The way you said that made it sound like you’re saying that your true ability is greater than mine…”
Goku: “Yeah, a whole lot greater, I think.”


Him not knowing it doesn't mean it's not true. He didn't know Cell was stronger as well

Resting Goku fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol
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Dioxide


Guliver
Jun 11 2015, 12:40:56 PM
Dioxide
Jun 11 2015, 12:07:06 PM
Guliver
Jun 11 2015, 04:47:40 AM
Dioxide
Jun 10 2015, 09:16:51 PM
Goku's powered down state is evidently not more powerful Vegeta since Goku had to him that his true power was powerful. The same suppressed stated which merely stalemated Cell
I don't understand your English.. Goku's natural basic state is more powerful than Vegeta because he fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol

What evidence is there for Trunks being weaker than Goku? I posted absolutely all the statements and the art which conclude it

Goku while warming up with Cell is in his natural basic state which is shown by the art and the 10 days and that level is much weaker than half of his power..
Saiyan, what's the point of powering up to 50 and not 65?? when you power up but still has some power left it means you have a lot of power left... Vegeta would not been thinking Goku has more power unless he was FAAR stronger than him... That's grasping at straws.. What I said of him thinking half of Goku's power was his max fits best
That is not the case. Vegeta didn't know Goku was more powerful than him in his suppressed state an needed to be be told by him that his true power is far beyond him.

Quote:
 
Vegeta: “What was that…? I don’t like that…The way you said that made it sound like you’re saying that your true ability is greater than mine…”
Goku: “Yeah, a whole lot greater, I think.”


Him not knowing it doesn't mean it's not true. He didn't know Cell was stronger as well

Resting Goku fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol
That's not how it works. Not only didn't Vegeta himself not notice, nobody else noticed that Goku was walking around with Ki far greater than Vegeta, nor does Goku contradict him on the matter. Cell was suppressing himself, the two situations are not applicable.

You have yet to prove Goku was at that level you are asserting.
Edited by Dioxide, Jun 11 2015, 01:10:25 PM.
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Pakl
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Dioxide
Jun 11 2015, 01:09:35 PM
Guliver
Jun 11 2015, 12:40:56 PM
Dioxide
Jun 11 2015, 12:07:06 PM
Guliver
Jun 11 2015, 04:47:40 AM
Dioxide
Jun 10 2015, 09:16:51 PM
Goku's powered down state is evidently not more powerful Vegeta since Goku had to him that his true power was powerful. The same suppressed stated which merely stalemated Cell
I don't understand your English.. Goku's natural basic state is more powerful than Vegeta because he fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol

What evidence is there for Trunks being weaker than Goku? I posted absolutely all the statements and the art which conclude it

Goku while warming up with Cell is in his natural basic state which is shown by the art and the 10 days and that level is much weaker than half of his power..
Saiyan, what's the point of powering up to 50 and not 65?? when you power up but still has some power left it means you have a lot of power left... Vegeta would not been thinking Goku has more power unless he was FAAR stronger than him... That's grasping at straws.. What I said of him thinking half of Goku's power was his max fits best
That is not the case. Vegeta didn't know Goku was more powerful than him in his suppressed state an needed to be be told by him that his true power is far beyond him.

Quote:
 
Vegeta: “What was that…? I don’t like that…The way you said that made it sound like you’re saying that your true ability is greater than mine…”
Goku: “Yeah, a whole lot greater, I think.”


Him not knowing it doesn't mean it's not true. He didn't know Cell was stronger as well

Resting Goku fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol
That's not how it works. Not only didn't Vegeta himself not notice, nobody else noticed that Goku was walking around with Ki far greater than Vegeta, nor does Goku contradict him on the matter. Cell was suppressing himself, the two situations are not applicable.

You have yet to prove Goku was at that level you are asserting.
Nobody noticed Cell was stronger too.. Even 16 was fooled

Cell was suppressed at the beginning but then he said he would use some power and Vegeta still didn't know he was stronger until his kick got tanked

I proved they are the same.... The design of movie 8 Goku which I posted is copied from the Goku on the Look Out and Goku when he was warming up with Cell which means they are the same.. They also look the same and have the same art.. That's the only level Goku used when he existed the RoSaT until the CG.. His natural MSSjin level.. He only powered up to Korrin to know where he is compared to Cell

You are the one who has no proof about Goku's level... He uses the same level because he was always at that level... Even if he was not and he was, he was still less than half power
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