| Why 50% MSSjin Goku > SSjinG3 Trunks | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 7 2015, 11:25:02 AM (1,785 Views) | |
| Pakl | Jun 10 2015, 03:19:15 PM Post #41 |
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Cell states he was warming up vs Vegeta and then fights Trunks without powering up so yes he was using his warming up state Burden of proof on yours to say otherwise Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.1-4 No.16: “Cell really did get considerably stronger…But Vegeta’s still better than him at everything!” Vegeta: “Damn you. You’re not taking this seriously.” Cell: “I told you I was warming-up.” Yes when they power up they are serious and Goku has no round eyes... I agree so whats your point? Of course they change with te mood but why would it worth mentioning it if it has no real meaning? Goku's eyes also change from round to narrow.. That's wy it's mentioned.. It has a reason I think your English understanding is not all that good.. "show me your strength" is not future tense but the meaning of the sentence is Vegeta wanting to see Goku's true power which he was not using at that point.. Plus, they were said to be just warming up and eveyone knows it... Vegeta knows Goku was not at full power despite thinking his max is his 50% so therefore Goku was using much less than that... Trunks didn't see Goku powering up but only sensed him so how can he know if Goku was not using some grade method?? Do you think Trunks sensing Goku without seeing him is gonna think about the way he was able to power up? Of couse not.. He was merely focused about his power and it shocked him But his warm up state is the same as his initial state after he existed the RoSaT... Why is it so hard to understand it... It's the same natural SSjin state Piccolo and Vegeta explained to Trunks The whole 50% thing was just a power up a demonstration to Korrin.. if t was not to build drama for the CG, Goku would have shown his full power to Korrin... Again, his basic evel whch he used the entire 10 days and his warm up with Cell was his initial Post RoSaT state which was shown in the design CG MSSjin Goku >> 50% MSSjin Goku (power up demonstration) >> Initial Post Rosat MSSjin Goku/10 days MSSjin Goku/Warmed Up MSSjin Goku ~ Warmed Up Perfect Cell All three are the same basic level Goku used until the Cell Games.. Half of his power was just a power up demonstration like Goku using Kaioken vs Ginyu lol Edited by Pakl, Jun 10 2015, 03:31:47 PM.
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| Pakl | Jun 10 2015, 03:28:54 PM Post #42 |
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You are comparing Anime images to Manga's Anyway, Goku's eyes being round in his 10 days state and his warm up vs Cell is still there the whole time.. Not really... Him saying it proves Goku was not at half of his power because he thinks it's his max.. You interpret this in the wrong way and I will tell you why.. I already posted this: Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5 Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first Cell first Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…” Vegeta thinks he is the strongest... We know he is much weaker than Goku's max and yet, he still thinks he is stronger than Goku (he is stronger than 50% Goku) That proves Vegeta thought Goku's max was his 50% and that my interpretation of Goku being at less than half power vs Cell and Vegeta saying "show us your strength" refers to his half power.. Plus, after Goku powers up to max Vegeta says "That's his full power?" with the question mark, it proves he didn't expect Goku to be stronger than what he thought he was hence half of his power What didn't I address? I addressed everything you posted.. Goku comes out of the RoSaT which is described by Piccolo to be natural SSjin.. He has round eyes and lacks aura... He has the same thing vs Cell and during the days... His half power was just a demonstration to Korrin a power up That's like saying Goku using Kaioken X2 vs Ginyu is also what he stays after without any proof |
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| Kyo | Jun 10 2015, 06:55:11 PM Post #43 |
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That was the image you posted, the evidence you were going by. Let's avoid those anime pics, then, yeah? I pointed out that this ain't right already, harping on it anymore doesn't look like it'll change much since you're just repeating yourself so I'll leave it be. I don't think so. No one's gonna say "show me your power" if they think they know that person's power already. Come on now. And just what is stopping me from proposing that 100% Goku > Vegeta > Vegeta's guess for Goku's full power > 50% Goku instead? Wrong, it proves that he didn't expect Goku to be that strong. If Vegeta's prior statement didn't exist then you'd be right, but sadly, it does. When Vegeta says, “So this is his true power?...” it sounds more like he was surprised at how high it is, not that there was a "true power" that he wasn't even aware of. Same goes for Trunks, though that's not as relevant. I repeat: unless you want me to believe that SSJG2 Vegeta would beat Warm Up Cell, you've got some explaining to do as to how Resting Goku puts up the fight he does. Now you're jumping the gun and putting words in my mouth. Please read my posts more thoroughly. |
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| Dioxide | Jun 10 2015, 09:16:51 PM Post #44 |
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Goku's powered down state is evidently not more powerful Vegeta since Goku had to him that his true power was powerful. The same suppressed stated which merely stalemated Cell |
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| Mike | Jun 10 2015, 09:37:27 PM Post #45 |
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True Prophet
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warm up Cell ~ 50% Goku > Grade 2 Vegeta > resting/warming up Goku, because Vegeta didn't notice Goku was stronger than him until Goku powered up to 50%, that's what you're implying, Kyo? (I didn't read through all of the posts.) |
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| Kyo | Jun 10 2015, 09:40:50 PM Post #46 |
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Basically. Goku even told him that he was much stronger and Vegeta didn't believe him. I'm just using that as an easy reference point though; the fact that Piccolo calls it an "ordinary, everyday level" already means that it's pissweak in general. Guliver's idea rides entirely on the notion that Goku stayed at this "resting level." I don't care where you've got 50% Goku at (though it seems I've been dragged into that debate as well), but that notion is false because Goku would've powered up no matter what, whether we saw it or not. Edited by Kyo, Jun 10 2015, 09:42:52 PM.
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| Lightsworn | Jun 10 2015, 10:04:39 PM Post #47 |
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Goku could have varying levels of his suppressed state. The Goku who fought Cell doesn't have to be equal to the Goku who was talking to Vegeta |
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| Papasmurf | Jun 10 2015, 10:08:53 PM Post #48 |
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Suck my dick.
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He still had to physically power up to reach 50% though, so I doubt he raised his power that far during his warm-up with Cell |
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| Kyo | Jun 10 2015, 10:48:52 PM Post #49 |
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Yup. He could've used 25% against Cell or something. Just not whatever minuscule % he was when he exited the RST in my book. You can't say that for sure, his intent was to power up to full until Karin begged him to stop. |
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| Dioxide | Jun 10 2015, 11:24:13 PM Post #50 |
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What argument is there anyway for 50% SSJ Goku being superior to Trunks? |
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| Whipedkillsmiled | Jun 11 2015, 02:22:51 AM Post #51 |
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Super Elite
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Warming up at Vegeta's level, warming up at Goku's level. Yeah and he thought that up until he powered up so it's fine to think Goku was at 50% Show me your strength is like saying show me what you got this is usually said before the fight starts and is implying that moment. Plus why would he say show me what you got if he knew his Fp was 50% he obviously also had doubts in his thoughts Yeah he thought because of his different training method there is a great possibility that he is obtaining this power without loosing speed. Also Goku's 50% is stronger than his G2 cell claimed his G3 was stronger than himself (trunks didnt know he was supressed) so if Goku's 50% IS stronger than his G2 but weaker than his G3 he thought there was a Chance He could beat cell. Yes eyes change with mood that's why Goku's eyes weren't round when he powered up. Saying the look in his eyes changed is like saying He has an angry look in his eye. That's not his warm up state that's his everyday life initial state he stayed that way in the 7 days in which he was not warming up. We've never seen what his 50% looks like when he's not powered up ofc he's gunna have aura while powering up. But we've never got a look of it post power up. Power chain is your opinion. Yes he demonstrated his 50% so? Doesn't mean he can't use it in battle. Edited by Whipedkillsmiled, Jun 11 2015, 02:31:30 AM.
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| Demon Saiyan | Jun 11 2015, 02:33:02 AM Post #52 |
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Perhaps when Vegeta said "Show me your strength kakarot" imply that Goku can get stronger than 50%, but Vegeta thinks he's superior to Goku and Cell. |
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| Whipedkillsmiled | Jun 11 2015, 02:36:23 AM Post #53 |
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Yes he thought he was stronger but saying show me your strength shows he was not totally confident and had a notion of disbelief. And yeah that is implying he believes Goku's full strength is higher than 50% |
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| Demon Saiyan | Jun 11 2015, 02:42:20 AM Post #54 |
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That mean Goku and Vegeta gap should be bigger something like this Vegeta: 75 Expected Cell: 70 Expected Goku: 65 Piccolo: 55 50% Goku: 50 |
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| Pakl | Jun 11 2015, 04:46:15 AM Post #55 |
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I mean you can't compare the Manga image to the Anime one but can use both as evidence.. How is it not right? Goku existed the RoSaT and Piccolo and Vegeta described them as SSjins in a natural state.. It's like normal Goku as a SSjin but not powered up.. That's why I call him Natural MSSjin and that's what he uses the entire time until powering up vs Cell.. It's shown in the design I showed which you keep ignoring... The round eyes ae there only for Goku when he rested and warmed up vs Cell but not when he powered up.. How did you prove it wrong? I already proved my interpretation is right based on the quotes Vegeta said before the CG started.. "show me your strength" can mean Goku was suppressed and not at full power like Vegeta thought which was half of his power You are grasping at straw now... Come on, Vegeta is not THAT much ahead of 50% Goku so him thinking Goku still has some power but he is still noticeably stronger than him is wrong More like you interept this quote in the wrong way.. He thinks Goku was suppressed and waits to see his full power which he showed to Korrin.. Get over it already Your interpretation is not backed up but mine is... He could of been surprised that Goku had more power than what he sensed and also surprised at his power... That proves nothing I don't understand... How does my post makes you think I say SSjinG 2 Vegeta is stronger than Warm Up Cell?? Resting Goku is the Goku who existed the RoSaT as a natural Sjin that everyone thought it was his normal state.. It was the basic power he uses the whole time till the CG and that is weaker than half of his power as he powered up to Korrin and said he used just half of it... CG MSSjin Goku > 50% MSSjin Goku (short power up demonstration to Korrin) > SSjinG 3 Trunks > Warm Up Perfect Cell ~ Initial Post RoSaT/10 days MSSjin/Warmed Up Goku > SSjinG 2 Vegeta What's the big deal? And again, the 50% was just a power up demonstration of Goku's real power.. His basic power which he uses the entire time since he exsited the RoSaT and until he powered up vs Cell is his natural state which is < half of his power... Gohan is also shown like Goku with that natural state until he powers up vs Cell.. That's their suppressed state.. I am not putting words in your mouth. People think Goku used half of his power vs Cell because he did vs Korin but ignore the fact it was just a power up demonstration... He and Gohan use the same basic level they did since they existed the RoSaT until the CG. The art shows it as well.. You keep ignoring the concept art.. You think resting Goku is weaker than Vegeta because Vegeta didn't think Goku was stronger until he powered up? Well thee are several flaws with that Vegeta is the guy who always ignores sensing ki and judges it by the look of the fighter.. He didn't know Cell was stronger than him until his kick got tanked.. Cell put a fake ki but he later showed his wamed up state which is >> Vegeta and Vegeta only realized he is weaker when his kick got tanked... Secondly, it was just to build up a dramatic effect like his fight with Cell when he doesn't realize his inferiority until fighting or sensing a huge power up.. In Cell's case it was his kick getting tanked and in Goku's case it was the huge power up for Korrin Your entire argument hold on Vegeta not admitting inferiority to Goku before he powered up but it has some flaws and contradicted by many things I posted like statements and the obvious at I showed... Plus, Piccolo calling it natural base power is not in reference of it being weak but in reference to show that they mastered the SSjin to the point of having no strain of evil heart Goku varying his ki is an assumption.. We know he used just one level the entire time until his fight with Cell and that level was less than half of his power... Plus, everyone else knew Goku was not serious vs Cell and they all thought Goku's max was half his power Edited by Pakl, Jun 11 2015, 04:59:05 AM.
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| Pakl | Jun 11 2015, 04:47:40 AM Post #56 |
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I don't understand your English.. Goku's natural basic state is more powerful than Vegeta because he fought evenly with the Cell who beat Vegeta lol What evidence is there for Trunks being weaker than Goku? I posted absolutely all the statements and the art which conclude it Goku while warming up with Cell is in his natural basic state which is shown by the art and the 10 days and that level is much weaker than half of his power.. Saiyan, what's the point of powering up to 50 and not 65?? when you power up but still has some power left it means you have a lot of power left... Vegeta would not been thinking Goku has more power unless he was FAAR stronger than him... That's grasping at straws.. What I said of him thinking half of Goku's power was his max fits best Edited by Pakl, Jun 11 2015, 05:01:53 AM.
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| Dioxide | Jun 11 2015, 12:07:06 PM Post #57 |
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That is not the case. Vegeta didn't know Goku was more powerful than him in his suppressed state an needed to be be told by him that his true power is far beyond him.
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| Pakl | Jun 11 2015, 12:40:56 PM Post #58 |
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| Dioxide | Jun 11 2015, 01:09:35 PM Post #59 |
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That's not how it works. Not only didn't Vegeta himself not notice, nobody else noticed that Goku was walking around with Ki far greater than Vegeta, nor does Goku contradict him on the matter. Cell was suppressing himself, the two situations are not applicable. You have yet to prove Goku was at that level you are asserting. Edited by Dioxide, Jun 11 2015, 01:10:25 PM.
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| Pakl | Jun 11 2015, 01:27:49 PM Post #60 |
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Nobody noticed Cell was stronger too.. Even 16 was fooled Cell was suppressed at the beginning but then he said he would use some power and Vegeta still didn't know he was stronger until his kick got tanked I proved they are the same.... The design of movie 8 Goku which I posted is copied from the Goku on the Look Out and Goku when he was warming up with Cell which means they are the same.. They also look the same and have the same art.. That's the only level Goku used when he existed the RoSaT until the CG.. His natural MSSjin level.. He only powered up to Korrin to know where he is compared to Cell You are the one who has no proof about Goku's level... He uses the same level because he was always at that level... Even if he was not and he was, he was still less than half power |
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