| Why 50% MSSjin Goku > SSjinG3 Trunks | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 7 2015, 11:25:02 AM (1,784 Views) | |
| Demon Saiyan | Jun 11 2015, 02:05:22 PM Post #61 |
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I don't think Warm Up Goku is the same who walk out of Rosat. Everyone couldn't tell that Goku is weaker than Cell immediately which imply that they know that Goku was supressed when he walked out. Vegeta even support this as well. If he knew Goku is equal to Warm Up Cell who tanked Vegeta's kicked, then he should know that Goku is already stronger him instead he need to ask Goku if he's stronger or not. |
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| Pakl | Jun 11 2015, 02:17:45 PM Post #62 |
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It's about the plot It's possible they didn't seem fearsome because of their natural look.. It looked like their base which is why they lacked aura Goku while warming up looks the ame and uses the same natural state.. He is never shown powering up Also why do you keep ignorng the design for M8 Goku which shows him from his warm up and from the Look Out.. They are basically equals Also, Cell saw Goku after he eisted the RoSaT and he never commented he was different when the CG began.. Resting Goku is his basic power the entire time lol Edited by Pakl, Jun 11 2015, 02:19:12 PM.
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| Demon Saiyan | Jun 11 2015, 03:57:02 PM Post #63 |
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Before I refute this , I just want to inform you and the others who read this that when I say resting state which mean he's normal form and warm up state which he used against Cell.
Because they were in their resting state.
Its true he didn't power up. But that doesn't mean he's stay in his warm up state. He can be anywhere below 50% but he could be in his resting state which makes sense why Vegeta need to ask Goku if he's weaker or not.
They're same so what? They're equal.
Why comment something if he's expected him to much more stronger than that? |
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| Pakl | Jun 11 2015, 04:13:47 PM Post #64 |
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You basically say you agree they are equals? I don't understand your point Natural MSSjin Goku is only one level which is below 50% and in par with Cell |
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| Demon Saiyan | Jun 11 2015, 04:29:53 PM Post #65 |
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Here's my question. If Goku is a warm up state then how come Vegeta didn't notice that Goku is stronger than him? It doesn't make any sense. |
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| Lightsworn | Jun 11 2015, 05:16:40 PM Post #66 |
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Edited by Lightsworn, Jun 11 2015, 05:26:46 PM.
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| Pakl | Jun 12 2015, 06:12:43 AM Post #67 |
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I already explained it.. Vegeta doesn't rely on ki.. He didn't sense Freeza was stronger than him and that Cell was stronger until he got defeated Furthermore, everyone knew Goku was suppresed vs Cell and they thought his max was half his power |
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| Demon Saiyan | Jun 12 2015, 07:23:23 AM Post #68 |
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Since Vegeta is a bad judgement. Then how about everyone? You said that Goku was in warm up state which rival Warm Up Cell who tanked Vegeta's kicked. How come they didn't notice that Goku is still weaker than Trunks like "Hey, Goku is weaker than me! He's just as strong Cell who I surpassed!" But they didnt since Goku was supressed like his base form. When Goku and Gohan walk out of the Rosat. Everyone were shocked that Goku seems to be natural in SSJ form like in his base form which implied that he's supressed. Goku doesn't need to stay in that power in 10 days which makes sense. |
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| Pakl | Jun 12 2015, 07:47:53 AM Post #69 |
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Why would they say it? He stayed the same.. Nothing says otherwise |
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| Demon Saiyan | Jun 12 2015, 08:30:02 AM Post #70 |
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Because the whole point was they thought Goku was the one who should beat Cell. And they asked him if he can beat Cell which suggest that Goku was supressed on the whole time. Furthermore, Goku was supressed just like his base form. |
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| Pakl | Jun 12 2015, 10:07:59 AM Post #71 |
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Because they didnt know what Cell was capable of... |
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| Demon Saiyan | Jun 12 2015, 10:40:15 AM Post #72 |
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They were asking Goku's ability to beat Cell not Cell's capable off. |
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| Pakl | Jun 12 2015, 02:26:01 PM Post #73 |
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Because they don't know Cell's power |
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| Demon Saiyan | Jun 12 2015, 03:23:26 PM Post #74 |
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Its nothing to do with Cell's power. |
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| Kyo | Jun 12 2015, 03:46:40 PM Post #75 |
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What? Using the anime is a bit pointless when you're not comparing to the manga, since the manga is what's canon and what matters in the end. Here's the manga version of the round eyes: http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dragon_Ball-buyao_daolian_ya/0.jp_Kanzenban/DRAGONBALLvol27/007-3YWNu.jpg Alright, moving on... Somehow you're not realizing that this is why your argument falls apart: Case in point. No, which I addressed*, and to which you responded with "No, the eyes are round, do you not see it?" I then acknowledged the slight differences (we have 3 versions here, essentially) – before your response, for that matter, and you went back and repeated what you said before again. What? No, no it can't. Yes, Goku is suppressed, but no, Vegeta isn't just telling Goku to not suppress. No, Vegeta is thinking to himself, "Show me your strength," which absolutely means "I want to see how strong you are." Why would it mean "Stop suppressing and let me see the strength that I've already seen"? This makes it sound as though Vegeta is directly addressing Goku out of impatience or something, which is absolutely not the case. Look at the context. Prove it. How do you not see the problem with this? "Show me your power, which I've already seen" makes no sense. There is no reason for such a line with such a meaning to exist, and nothing in the scene supports it. Who's grasping at straws, me or you? Lemme show you some other lines... Chapter: 156, P11.1-6 Context: after Goku and Piccolo fight a bit Goku: “Come at me with all you’ve got! Put out all your strength! Show me your true power!” Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4 Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife.” By? Certainly not the context of the scene. You see, this is why I've been telling you to read my posts more thoroughly. > that everyone thought it was his normal state You seriously don't see the problem in saying that this Goku was the one who stalemated the Cell who kicked Vegeta's ass? An ordinary, everyday state, to be precise. You say you're not putting words in my mouth, and then you go on to talk about what other people generally say. Anyway, I'd like you to go over all of my posts and look for where I say "Goku stayed at 50% the whole time." If you can't find it, then yes, you were putting words in my mouth. Until the CG. Yes. Not during any part of the CG, no. Well, not Goku, anyway. I've said more about the art than you have. I've talked about the three differing looks in Goku's eyes. I've offered an explanation for Goku's look during his demonstration for Karin's. All of which you've not addressed, simply falling back on statements like "You're ignoring the art" and "His eyes are round." Didn't stop him from realizing that Goku was superior when the latter powered up later. Yep. And you're ignoring that this is exactly the moment in which Cell stopped putting out his fake chi (you said something about grasping straws earlier?). Or, rather, it was right before, when he appears right behind Vegeta, after which Vegeta immediately kicked Cell. Go back and read that part. Even 16 was fooled until Cell started to actually try. Still, you could've picked a better example, Vegeta has messed up before. So has Cell. And numerous others. In the heat of battle. Not outside of the battlefield, with a calm state of mind. He was definitely sensing Goku and Gohan there, given that he as well as Trunks and Piccolo note the way they feel "natural." Moreover, the fact that he immediately accepts his inferiority when Goku powers up should tell you that he indeed going by the chi he feels right there. Moreover, Vegeta's not the only one who doesn't notice. No one notices how powerful Goku is. Because at the moment, he's just not powerful. Lastly, that's not even the only thing that points to why Resting Goku is weak. Which has no bearing on the in-universe reasons for his thoughts and actions. If Goku was legitimately weaker than Vegeta prior to powering up, it'd achieve the same dramatic effect, so taking note of that doesn't change anything. Again, who's grasping at straws here again? No, it doesn't. Go back and read. > no strain of evil heart This was never an issue. Piccolo didn't call it "natural base power." Yes, *until* the fight. Not during the fight. I'll point you to Vegeta's line once more. So, in Trunks's mind, he thinks he's stronger than Goku at the Games, according to you? Edited by Kyo, Jun 12 2015, 04:04:04 PM.
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| Dioxide | Jun 12 2015, 07:10:51 PM Post #76 |
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Assuming Goku was at half of his power when he initially fought Cell, then it is possible that Goku at half of his power is not even as strong as Vegeta at his acended level. What Cell describes as his warm up power was not even as powerful as Vegeta as stated by #16. Then Cell decided to increase his power even more which is easily defeated Vegeta. Evidently Cell's warm up power and his power to defeat Vegeta are different. After Cell and Goku fight for a while, Cell acknowledges it as his warm up power. However, this is all assuming Goku fought Cell with half of his power |
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| Dagon | Jun 13 2015, 01:15:24 AM Post #77 |
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I read the chapters and watched the DBZ Kai episodes again and it seems that Goku in the warm-up round could very well be below his 50% state since everyone knew he and Cell were just warming up. I don't think that by itself indicates 50% Goku was higher than SSJG3 Trunks. |
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| Pakl | Jun 13 2015, 04:04:11 PM Post #78 |
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I am talking about the Anime art which shows a better way of understanding what Goku was using.. Yep, you posted the image and that's cool.. What does it prove? How come my argument falls apart? When did you address it? The images of the design are copied from the Manga.. Two from Goku's warm up with Cell and two from Goku on the Look Out when he existed the RoSaT.. Simple as that, they are the same... Also, to clarify it, here is the images: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() End of story they are the same As I said before, the quotes before show my interpretation is right... Vegeta thinks he is the strongest and he is just stronger than 50% MSSjin Goku so obviously, he didn't expect Goku to be stronger.. That's how it is... "Show me your strength" doesn't have to mean he expected him to be stronger.. He could of meant to see his power in action and such... I don't have to prove it.. Burden of proof on you What's te point of holding back 10% of your power? Vegeta is 63.5% of Goku imo.. Are you saying he expected Goku to be stronger and still thinking he is good deal stronger than him? Stupid Again, Vegeta's earlier statements proves my interpretation is tight.. He thinks he is the strongest and well ahead of Goku so obviously he can't expect him to be stronger than half his power... Your interpretation makes no sense.. You are saying Vegeta expected Goku was holding back 5% of his power.. What's the point of that? It's stupid The quotes you posted all show a slight different interpretation... "show me your TRUE strength" means Goku knew Piccolo had more power.. It was clear Vegeta knew Goku was stronger in the Bo Arc because he trained in the otherworld.. Thise quotes can't be interpreted in a different way but Vegeta's quote in the CG can.. By? By Vegeta's earlier quotes and the fact no one knew Goku had more power... I read your posts.. Everyone thinking it's his base state is not because of his strength but because of him being natural.. Don't twist the context please.. No I dont.. For the sake of the argument, le's call what Goku uses when he existed the RoSaT until the CG a MSSjin and after powering up vs Cell a FPSSjin.. Goku's MSSjin state duing the days which never change until his fight with Cell is in par with the Cell who beat Vegeta.. Simple... The art is cear Yes, an ordinary everyday state or whatever you wanna call it is what he uses the entire time since he existed the RoSaT until he fought Cell I am sorry, you must have mijudged my posts.. there are some who think Gou stayed at half power which is wrong.. I guess you say he powered down back and then used half power vs Cell? Well, that's not true simply because he was never shown powering up and his art looks the same as his natural days state.. Plus, he and Gohan use it the whole time and lack an aura... That's the sign of their state and that's why Goku was not having aura vs Cell.. He was in his ordinary everyday state Yes they did use it in the CG too. Gohan and Goku both are shown in their natural everyday state... They have those features and never power up... They use it until they power up vs Cell.. Why denying it when the entire art and plot shows they used it?? There was o power up and you have no evidence When did you say anything about the art.. Post it again.. You just showed some Manga image of Goku vs Cell when he is shown to have round eyes proving I am right.. Furthermore, Goku's art is the same the entire time until he fight Cell.. Trunks comments his eyes changed after powering up.. His power up vs Korrin also has this change.. Goku vs Cell is n his ordinary state and has the same art and look.. Plus, the design shows they ae the same.. You have not addressed it and I disproved your arguments about it.. If not, then post it again Of course Vegeta knew Goku was stronger.. He sensed his power up.. When someone powers up is more impressive than just standing around.. He underestimated all the villains until getting beaten Cell put up a fake ki but then used his warm up power.. Yet Vegeta still didn't realize he was stronger until he got tanked I don't get you.. Vegeta kicked him after Cell showed his speed. if it was not for his kick getting tanked, he would not even realize.. The same thing happened with Freeza and Boo Nope, resting Goku is the one who fought Cell clearly shown by the art and the fact he never powered up.. You have no evidence he powered up and such.. Plus, resting Goku lacks aura and he did when he fought Cell He was clearly in his resting state and so was Gohan What? The drama effect was to have Goku powering up and then shocking everyone. How is that even not relevant? I did, your entire post is no one notices his strength.. My evidence is the art and the fact Goku never powers up and that he just uses the form the whole time and you have no evidence to say othewise because it's never stated Why does he have to call it natural base power? He was talking about them being natural at SSjin which is weird.. Too bad, you have no evidence he used more power vs Cellbecause he never powers up and has the exact same traits as his resting state.. He is in his resting state.. The design shows it being the same.. LOL yOU IGNORE THE tRUNKS'S STATEMENT ABOUT HIS EYES TOO... hIS ROUND EYES IS HIS TRAIT to his resting state and that's what he uses the entire time Vegeta's line can be interpreted both ways and mine has more evidence.. Trnks didn't know what to expect of the senshi... It's irelevant |
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| Pakl | Jun 13 2015, 04:06:05 PM Post #79 |
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Resting Goku and Cell were even.. 50% MSSjin Goku >> that Cell SSjinG 3 Trunks is stronger too but not by much so 50% MSSjin Goku > SSjinG 3 Trunks |
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| Dagon | Jun 13 2015, 07:44:50 PM Post #80 |
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Cell could have been resting or suppressed as well. The Cell that Trunks fought was thought to be his full power, and the spectators for Goku vs Cell were expecting them both to have higher power levels. |
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