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Ryan's Fixes
Topic Started: Oct 15 2013, 01:56 AM (697 Views)
Kalkavek
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Actual World Ender
Just finished all of Aiden's recommended buffs in google docs; about 80% of them went as Aiden suggested. Waiting on Yayre to confirm.

As for the HP change, gimme a few days to get out of the hospital from the aneurysm it's giving me.
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Glacier
Heir to the Throne
Rellos Dar
Oct 15 2013, 11:27 AM
Did anyone from Revelations feel that fights were too short there?
Fully owning up to the biases this gives me -- and you should take those biases into account -- I feel like HP should be changed. It's not necessarily that fights were too short, just that damage really messed up people.

http://w11.zetaboards.com/DBRevelations/topic/7619933/1/

On that link you'll find Ultra vs Jack in Revelations' tournament. Going into the fight, I had a power level of 2,781. Jack's was was 722. I have two brackets on him.

Jack wins.

Now, going into the fight, after we had both transformed, here was what the HP looked like:

[ Ultra - 1,305 / 5 ] [ Jack - 821 / 5 ]

Jack admittedly had gotten a CRITICAL and had hit me a fair few times, so by turn 17, we were at this:

[ Ultra - 551 / 8 ] [ Jack - 591 / 4 ]

One hit later?

[ Ultra - 95 / 5 ] [ Jack - 591 / 0 ]

Jack had a 100% Signature he threw, did 456 damage.

Despite being 2,000 PL below me, two full brackets lower, he still knocked out 35% of my total HP in one hit.

Jack went on to win the fight.

Shrug. Just think HP deserves an overhaul.
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Kalkavek
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I'll chat it up with Yayre and that other mod we pretend to have (he actually owns the site, huehue).
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Glacier
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It's food for thought.
Edited by Glacier, Oct 15 2013, 12:47 PM.
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Aiden
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Time Traveling, Dimension Hopping, Planet Saving Extraordinaire
I generally disagree with everything Gus says out of principle. However, I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in the HP stat. We could try making it 75 HP per SP at first. If it seems to work, stick with it. If it seems to be too much, lower it. Its not that hard to have players change their stats after the game started if we just tweak the per-point amount. Their SP in each stat shouldn't change, after all.
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Detective Wesson
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I haven't run the numbers on increasing HP per SP but I Imagine it would create more consistent, longer fights.

Thing is, I've never been around long enough to see the Sig technique game. I always had a sneaking suspicion that health would not hold up at the end of a fight in this scenario, and fights would devolve from well structured movesets battling each other into who can land their sigs first, pregame be damned.

A lot of this worry is a result of the Dex changes. With the removal of easily accessible dice modifiers people will feel obliged to get dex, which will lower Endurance and Power in a fight.

This is probably why dex was mostly a dump/catch-up stat in the previous SLs. This sites change attempts to fix that, but without taking the rest of the system into account. We haven't exactly quantified how much a dice side is worth over X amount of extra health.

I'll run some numbers and some test spars. If you two have any info that can help me out, let me know.
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Ankou
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any word on HP or races?
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Kalkavek
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As for HP, we're keeping that as-is for now. In the examples between Chronicles and Revivals, the Chronicles character was majoring in Health while the Revivals characters were even or majoring in Power. Y'all built glass cannons, and I don't mind because fights take 30-50 minutes even with that due to typing and modding. We may review it in saga 2 but we're just going to follow the Revelations main template for now so the current team can get used to handling admin responsibilities.

As for races, I dread the incoming changes and the shitstorm that will follow it, but if Aiden has his (likely massive amount of) suggestions by Sunday then I'll go over them and post it up with the move erratas on Monday.

This coming Monday is when we solidify the game; unless anything absolutely breaks the system or requires clarity/flaw fixing (like a move or quest reward not working or being unclear), we'll be doing no more changes. This will give people 2 full weeks to hammer down their characters and perhaps rewrite concepts if the fancy strikes them.
Edited by Kalkavek, Oct 17 2013, 01:57 PM.
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Glacier
Heir to the Throne
The Marketplace needs a pretty severe overhaul.

The "new" races are severely outgunned by the older, more established races. I don't even think Maguma-Jins or Brutii have items unique to their race and no way to cash in on it, and I think most people would agree with me when I say some of the existing items aren't appropriately balanced.

Androids and Bio-Androids basically have the best equipment in the game. The HP gain from nanomachines is notable, but with the Red Ribbon Vest they get more power than Half-Saiyans do from the Jacket, yet retain the same amount of HP. Arcosians get the shaft with their unique items; their only gigs are Reflective Vests which I don't think are ever really worn in these games and Speedos, which are less worn. Durians and Vanitians get bonuses from Lieutenant's Armor, despite the fact it says in the description it's an Arcosian design.

The "easiest" way to fix it is to just remove racial bonuses and let everyone equip everything the same. I think that's also the worst way to fix it, because it will result in everyone wearing the exact same equipment, but I think everyone's numbers should at least add up, and right now they really, really don't:

Androids wearing a Sturdy Red Ribbon Vest and High Quality C.C. Pants get +19% Power and +16% Health. Halfies come close, but no other race currently matches that from just upper and lower body, and some races can't even get close.
Edited by Glacier, Oct 19 2013, 10:39 AM.
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Strange

Havoc
Oct 19 2013, 10:38 AM
The Marketplace needs a pretty severe overhaul.

The "new" races are severely outgunned by the older, more established races. I don't even think Maguma-Jins or Brutii have items unique to their race and no way to cash in on it, and I think most people would agree with me when I say some of the existing items aren't appropriately balanced.

Androids and Bio-Androids basically have the best equipment in the game. The HP gain from nanomachines is notable, but with the Red Ribbon Vest they get more power than Half-Saiyans do from the Jacket, yet retain the same amount of HP. Arcosians get the shaft with their unique items; their only gigs are Reflective Vests which I don't think are ever really worn in these games and Speedos, which are less worn. Durians and Vanitians get bonuses from Lieutenant's Armor, despite the fact it says in the description it's an Arcosian design.

The "easiest" way to fix it is to just remove racial bonuses and let everyone equip everything the same. I think that's also the worst way to fix it, because it will result in everyone wearing the exact same equipment, but I think everyone's numbers should at least add up, and right now they really, really don't:

Androids wearing a Sturdy Red Ribbon Vest and High Quality C.C. Pants get +19% Power and +16% Health. Halfies come close, but no other race currently matches that from just upper and lower body, and some races can't even get close.
If were doing this, I could probably get my friend whose joining and maybe some other volunteers to at least help make brand new items to be balanced out in time for the saga. I have to admit that he's right. The items aren't balanced right at all in that respect, plus (as much as I hate to admit) I'm personally not too excited about seeing the current market place as it is. While new worlds have new missions and new stories going around and even move lists are getting some updates and changes, the market place doesn't really have anything fresh going on (other then a few dice side nerfs, not to say that the changes are good or bad but just to further express how little things have changed). The more people keep pointing out these erratas, the more I'm thinking we should probably hold out on starting the saga in another couple of weeks or so. Personally, I'm alright with the idea of pushing it a bit further back, though I'm not sure if everyone else agrees with me on this.
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Kalkavek
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  • Brutii and Maguma-Jin fall under the "Ginyu Force" races. I'll post a note under all 5 race descriptions mentioning this.
  • Android items have been tweaked down by 1-2% per stat
  • Lieutenant's armor description says its made by Arcosians as a hat tip to Zarbon and Dodoria working for Frieza
  • I'll work on full-body/accessory items for Arcosians, Aliens, Tuffles, and Ginyu Force races. Also a small something for Durians and Yardratians.
  • The rest is staying as-is unless we see major trouble, it's largely a copy of the Revelations marketplace.
  • Marketplaces have always been out of balance between price and stat allocations, we're fixing it but we can't promise perfection.
  • If anybody wants certain items added, try suggesting them in the Capsule Corp. section
Edited by Kalkavek, Oct 19 2013, 04:39 PM.
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Glacier
Heir to the Throne
Although Ryan's are the fixes we need, he's not the one we deserve right now.

Or something.

He's not available, so I'm going to go ahead and take a stab at fixing Namekian classes. Admittedly, I'm no Ryan, but if being silent means that one of the most powerful canon races doesn't get fixed then I'm going to shout from the friggin' hilltops to at least make them playable. If I go too far, hopefully Ryan can come back and unfuck what I fuck up.

Before we get to the classes, though, can we fix the TF?

[NOVICE] Green Giant - Your opponent's physical attacks do -10% Damage against you.
You no longer have Meditative Preparation while in this form.
[INTERMEDIATE] That's A HUGE . . . Namek - Your opponent's physical attacks do -15% Damage against you. You no longer have Meditative Preparation while in this form.
[MASTERED] Big Man On Campus - Your opponent's physical attacks do -15% Damage against you. Your attacks do +(5% Power) Damage. You no longer have Meditative Preparation while in this form.

That's Giant Form. Why the HELL did it get nerfed? This is what it was in Revelations, and every incarnation before then:

[NOVICE] Green Giant - Your opponent's physical attacks do -10% Damage against you.
You no longer have Meditative Preparation while in this form.
[INTERMEDIATE] That's A HUGE . . . Namek - Your opponent's physical attacks do -20% Damage against you. You no longer have Meditative Preparation while in this form.
[MASTERED] Big Man On Campus - Your opponent's physical attacks do -20% Damage against you. Your attacks do +(10% Power) Damage. You no longer have Meditative Preparation while in this form.

Who decided it would be a good idea to make their transformation so much weaker? I actually came here to suggest that we should buff the original idea: since the dawn of time, Namekians lose Meditative Preparation while in Giant Form for . . . no real good reason. Not one I can think of, anyway. If you want to debuff Giant Form to +5% Power, whatever. but at least give them Meditative Preparation back once they master the damn thing.

Now we can move o-- what the hell? I actually had to come back here to type this because I just realized someone decided to change the Super Namek from results to sides. Why? What possible motivation is there for doing that? It makes it easier for your opponent to CRITICAL on you . . . and that's really it. How often is a 27 dodged naturally? Put it back to results, and who among you is the Namekian hater!?

Now that that's out of the way, let's look at the classes, which are the real bane of the Namekian people.

  • Warrior Namek – You start the game with 12 Training Days instead of 10. RESTRICTEDx3. You may heal from a BREAK immediately.


Pretty worthless. For starters, Regeneration already gives them a free get-out-of-BREAK free card. Additionally, the prevalence of Mido players aside, BREAK is a pretty niche effect. If you're not Reina with a dedicated Bonecrusher set you're not going to get very many per fight. There are already several classes that let you start with more training days, and almost all of them are a might better than this.

I advise something more tangible and useful to all sets. Something along the lines of:

  • Warrior Namek - You start the game with 12 Training Days instead of 10. RESTRICTEDx3. You may gain +1 Ki Point on a Power Up.


Works on every single set, gives them a 5 Ki Power up 3x a fight, which ain't half bad.

  • Namekian Healer - Whenever you choose to pass your turn, you may gain +(5% Current Health). Whenever you choose to pass your turn, your next defensive roll gains +6 to the result. You cannot COUNTER on your next defensive roll. You cannot gain Health from this effect on your consecutive turns.


This isn't god-awful if you're Aoyusumu, but the fact that you can't even get a COUNTER from it if you're Aoy makes it less-than-desirable. Effectively, here's how this reads: STUN yourself. Gain some health, such a low amount that you could get more of it if you just ran a respectable Hao set (and then you'd get an attack in this turn, too!), and here's a defensive boost. Oh, but you can't counter with the boost -- and since the rules on COUNTERing has been errata'd, that means even if you roll a perfect 30, still no COUNTER. And in case you're desperate, you can't gain HP again if you're silly enough to do this again.

Here's what I'd do:

  • Namekian Healer - Activate when you roll a 25 or higher on a single dice attack. Gain +(5% Current Health).


Combos plenty well with Haokiru or even Akaikaru. Notice that Haokiru doesn't have (any, I believe) attacks that modify dice sides, and Akaikaru doesn't have any attacks that heal themselves. Before anyone cries Dexterity foul, if you run a Haokiru set and dump your points into dex, you're going to see diminishing health returns from this effect. Finally, it does read CURRENT HP, which is an amount that matters less and less the lower you get.

  • World Invader - After achieving the Giant Form transformation, you start Mastered with a 1d100 Transformation Roll. When in possession of a [Namek] Dragon Ball, nothing can prevent you from using 'Meditative Preparation'.


This one is so awful because it effectively reads: Yaaaaay, you get to skip some weeks of sparring for d100 Level 1 TF! Also, if you have a Namek Dragon Ball, you get Meditative Preparation always! Which only ever matters with that Level 1 TF you'll eventually outgrow! Oh, you want to go somewhere other than Namek? That sucks, because you can't take that Dragon Ball you burned six days finding with you, so I guess anywhere other than home you're screwed.

Why don't we make it something worthy of its name? I'm looking at the Arcosian Planet Conqueror for a tip.

  • World Invader - After achieving the Giant Form transformation, you start Intermediate with a 1d50 Transformation Roll. At the start of the game, and then every even numbered week after, choose a planet to invade. When in combat on the planet you are invading, you automatically start first in every battle, and your first 5 Advanced Attacks gain +2 to the results.


No need to worry about result mod abuse considering it's A) temporary and B) you can't CRITICAL via result mods anyway. I knocked the TF down since they get a constant effect to use throughout the game.

  • Dragon Clan - It takes -1 Day to find a [Namek] Dragon Ball. When you would lose your [Namek] Dragon Balls due to death or escape, you may choose as many as you wish to be scattered instead. It takes you -1 Day to find a ball you have lost. When you have a Dragon Ball in your possession, your defense rolls gain +1 dice side.


I doubt we ever see it used, but it's what it is. I understand the temptation to have a Dragon Ball class for Namekians. For what it is, it's not awful

  • Pokopen Reproduction - Once per Month, when killed in Battle, you may choose to declare 'Pokopen', which allows you to create a new Namekian character with all or some of the memories of your current character. This new character retains all of your current stats, items, transformations, and name and replaces your current character. In doing so, this character is not sent to the Afterlife. You cannot challenge another player to Battle for the next two weeks after declaring 'Pokopen' and for those two weeks you start all combats with 2 KI Points, regardless of 'Meditative Preparation'.


This is basically the worst class anyone could have made. It's golden for a writing angle, but in terms of actual in-game functionality it's actually more of a hindrance than a boost. Basically you don't fear death -- but suffer all the penalties, and none of the rewards. You lose any Dragon Balls you have, still lose all of your zenni, and now you're missing out on the Afterlife, which is where all your best stuff is. I realize you can "choose" to avoid it, but still. Why? Something that's supposed to keep you immortal should actually protect what you have.

My recommended fix would be something to protect your zenni and items so nothing can be lost in the battle you were killed during. Obviously you have to be able to lose your Dragon Balls, but you should get to keep everything else. I would also add a revenge angle to it, something like "If you challenge the player or NPC" the NPC line is important since it makes this viable against Saga Bosses or Quest Bosses "that killed you in the next two weeks, your attacks do +(5% Power) damage."

That's what I'd do for Namekians.
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Kalkavek
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Just doing a quick read over right now, some points:
  • The racial was definitely broken before, but for the wrong reasons. I didn't take into account that it lost the racial when modifying it, so I'll take that clause off. I'll give the sides/results thing a look over, and consider any other revisions.

  • I absolutely need to change the Namekian Warrior to say "+2 training days" instead of 12, since we all have 12 now. The break clause is a buff because the regeneration racial can only be used once and it takes a turn, this makes it take no turns and usable 3 times. Normal regeneration is actually pretty garbage against a consistent BREAK build but this class is not.

  • I'll give world invader a look, but the 1d100 TF mastery does save a few days since you don't require spars at all until TF2. I think the classes with 1d100 TF could use a lookover though, I'll check it out tomorrow.

  • Namekian Healer is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. I must have glossed over it, I would literally rather be lynched by a French revolution than take this class. I'll give it a redo tomorrow when I go through these, as well as any others I see (without Ryan I'll be doing the erratas by myself; a month of rule changes have made some worse and some better).

  • Good eye on Popoken, I'll change it so you don't lose any zenni and you can't lose items from robbery classes. Not on the DBs though. Also I'll either be reverting it to 2 weeks or giving the revenge angle a look.
Edited by Kalkavek, Oct 20 2013, 08:39 PM.
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Glacier
Heir to the Throne
With Namekians over, let me give a cursory glance at some of the other races and offer my two cents. I've consulted with Ryan on all of this, so he does agree with me -- sadly, he has no internet at the moment.

Androids
Power Core got seriously nerfed. I . . . I don't know. I get it. Kind of. Power Core was the perfect line of maybe it's broken but holy shitballs it's so good -- if you're going to nerf it I understand, but it's been nerfed too far. We recommend either of these solutions:

Leave Power Core as it is, but make it able to mod attacks that can't have their costs mod'd. Still only works on 3+, but go through the game and count how many base 3+s can have their costs mod'd right now -- without this clause, Power Core is dead in the water. With this clause it makes it viable.

Make it how the old Power Core was, but make it RESTx5 or something.

I tend to prefer the latter choice, but that's just personal opinion.

Bio-Androids
This really does not need to be addressed now, but something to watch:

Bio-Androids 3rd and 4th TFs suck. At that point in the game you've either got a full moveset or you've stolen everything you want to. Making it easier to steal moves by getting hit with them just isn't as attractive anymore. They need either something else, or an even better version of that.

Maybe they can steal multiple AAs when they're hit with a dice roll of x+, or maybe they have a REST ability that lets them transform and just pick a move. Something. Stealing moves is only good up to a certain point in these games.

Genie
The end the floating effect ability of their trans should be able to be activated at any time, not just when they TF. Make it RESTx1 or whatever, but if you leave it only when they TF, they have to wait until they're actually suffering from a Mist or a BREAK or whatever, which means they have to basically force themselves to not transform or otherwise they lose out on a very good part of their transformation's effect.

Arcosian
This transformation has been the black dog of this game forever. It needs to be fixed, but neither Ryan nor I have any idea how, and I'm hesitant to offer suggestions because there's a very real possibility I'm going to end up playing Glacier again in this storyline and I don't want to come off as the kid who remakes the game for himself.

I think they frankly need a completely overhauled TF, but the work going into that is monstrous. Failing that, the two things I would advise:

The one thing going for Arcosians now is that they get so much bloody power from their first transformation. It's amazing -- 30% Power when they TF. Unfortunately, that gain doesn't continue into their later transformations, and their stats are distributed more evenly across their stats. I would maybe look into adjusting their stats in some way. Personally I think it would be a neat mechanic to let them choose how to distribute a portion of their stats -- see Majins third TF for ideas -- since Frieza had different abilities for his TF, but frankly that might be a tad OP. I don't know, it's worth a looksie.

The other thing -- their TF effects. It's not that the effect itself is bad, it's that it's so bloody hard to ever activate. Mastered level 1 is +16 or higher. Level 2 is +13.

Go roll some stuff and see how often you get it. Even with multi-dice, it's tremendously difficult to get it to activate. With the Level 1 Mastered TF, your opponent can't roll above a 14 -- basically, your opponent always has a 50/50 shot of making it impossible for you to use your TF effect. That said, even if they do roll a lower number, you have to roll fairly high just to make it possible.

This is a tricky balancing act, because lowering it too much risks being too good, but not lowering it leaves it in a bit of sad state. It's something to think about.

Konats
This is straight from Ryan and I don't have his full meaning, but he suggested you revamp some of their classes and return Enhanced Hearing to whatever it originally was since CRITICALs/COUNTERs no longer work the same.

Humans
Humans got an auto-nerf with the new CRITICAL rule. Adding insult to injuring, for some reason the whole Base 3+ thing was turned into Base 4+. Again, go through and count up how many Base 4+ can actually have their costs modded. It's not a ton. We would advise you simply lower it to Base 3+, to where it originally was.

That's all we got. There's surely more, but I do need to go eat dinner and pretend I have a life. So bye for now.

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Kalkavek
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I'll give all those a look, Arcosian TF does indeed suck but it's not like I haven't had to make 15 already. I'll just whip up a different effect for them.

Human first TF blows and their later TFs are amazing, I'll see about trying to make their first one acceptable.

I feel the same way about Bio-Android, I just considered going one so I had some guilt over it. I'll give it a look. I also might re-roll Bio-Android. So juicy.

Good ideas on Power Core and Genie.

Konatsians I'm iffy on, most racial dice side bonuses were in terms of "+2" to either attack or defense. Konatsians are already ahead of the par by being able to choose, but I'll give it a look and balance their racial/class/TFs to each other, see how it works out.
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