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Split raidlocks
Topic Started: Oct 26 2012, 04:53 PM (130 Views)
Aurora
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Continued from shoutbox:

Bobbygondo 14 minutes ago But the fact the cata change is now recognised as a bad one doesn’t justify destroying the functional state we have now and throwing us into another expansion of turmoil in the hope we can recreate the good old days. (X)
Bobbygondo 14 minutes ago We could argue all day whether this change would be more damaging than the one going into cata. (X)
Bobbygondo 14 minutes ago However at this point everything has stabilized, possible not in a way some people would like but everyone who wants to raid can raid. Even in the size they want to if it’s really important to them. (X)
Bobbygondo 15 minutes ago I should point out that I do agree that the changes they made going into cataclysm were a mistake, there were problems with how it worked back then but they went far too far and it caused major ramification for the raiding community going in to cata. (X)
Bobbygondo 15 minutes ago And can you honestly say you would not have felt at least some pressure to run Dragon Soul on a different raid size for gurthalak. (X)
Bobbygondo 15 minutes ago If my guild got to a fight that was a tight healer gear check and we got the fight mechanics down early on but had a lot of low % wipes due to raid damage after I had deliberately not been pugging some of 25 man I would feel guilty (X)
Bobbygondo 15 minutes ago I don’t think it is entitlement that makes him say raiders will have to clear as much as they can on all difficulties to me it’s a matter of reasonability to the people I play with. (X)
Aurora Today, 2:14 PM as it happened the effect to the community and class balancing would have made it a bad idea regardless but without the content as well there was no reason whatsoever to do it. (X)
Aurora Today, 2:14 PM Changing would have worked out if and only if they put out the content volume to justify it. (X)
Liam Today, 2:09 PM I have no idea why they ever changed it. It was always going to cause a problem. Returning to that format would do nothing but strengthen the game I'd say. (X)
Aurora Today, 2:01 PM So his arguement is to restrict options for the small few with OCD to prevent the poor dears getting burned out. (X)
Aurora Today, 2:00 PM wrath was great because you had to prioritise and choose between all the options. Nobody cleared ICC25, 10, RS 10, RS 25, TOGC 25, 10 and ulduar 25 hm every week (X)
Aurora Today, 1:59 PM His main complaint seems to be his own problem at a compulsion to clear everything and for there being too much without a raid split. The problem is his feeling of entitlement to clear everything every week (X)
Aurora Today, 1:56 PM People will follow the loot and do whatever the game demands for them to get that. It is more beneficial if that is a larger pool of players (X)
Aurora Today, 1:55 PM And it'd destroy the 10 man raiding thing but is that a bad thing? The community benefit is much better for the standard guild to be a bigger guild (X)
Aurora Today, 1:54 PM The feelings of the 10 man raider in wrath could be likened to the feelings of a 5 man dungeoner. (X)
Liam Today, 1:46 PM check the mail! (X)
Liam Today, 2:24 AM "The Valor Point rewards from random Dungeons, Challenge Mode Dungeons and Scenarios have increased." - Handy. (X)
Bobbygondo Today, 1:20 AM although he diddnt bring up my point of it spelling the end of a lot of 10 man guild (X)
Bobbygondo Today, 1:18 AM He sums up a lot of my feelings towards the whiole thing (X)
Bobbygondo Today, 1:17 AM http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?80226-The-Weekly-Marmot-Splitting-the-10-and-25-man-Raid-Lockouts (X)
Liam Yesterday, 9:58 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LkJ3_nVq8s - Mlp Season 3 preview song 2! (X)
Liam Yesterday, 9:57 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9587NQm6OVw - MLP Season 3 preview (X)
Zymeth Yesterday, 8:36 PM This is a question for both Liam and Laura, since i aint got you on friends list and liam isn't online at the moment, How would you both feel about doing challenge modes? im going to ask matt aswell, if everyone accepts we have a 5man team . (X)
Bobbygondo Yesterday, 7:14 PM I'm sure there are some but considering each 10 man guild would need at least 15 new people I doubt there are enough that would decide they want to raid again with this change. (X)
Aurora Yesterday, 7:11 PM of the 836,000 (unique) players who had a 90 character in the first week only 15% raided in the second. What were the other 85% doing because if you're maxxing levels in a few days you're probably not an ultra casual. (X)
Aurora Yesterday, 7:08 PM there are the spare players, less people are raiding in the game than ever and I'd imagine thats worrying blizzard (X)
Bobbygondo Yesterday, 6:58 PM oh and sigh @ TN (X)
Bobbygondo Yesterday, 6:58 PM Also with the extra competition for recruiting guilds that stay 10 man either because they enjoy that format or they can see how unrealistic it is to switch would only have to lose a few people to be unable to carry on. (X)
Bobbygondo Yesterday, 6:58 PM which would lead to poaching, (X)
Bobbygondo Yesterday, 6:57 PM I actually think it would be more damaging then what happened at the start of cata. The majority of 10 man guilds that would want to switch to 25 man won’t be able to there just enough spare players hanging around. (X)
Aurora Yesterday, 6:05 PM which was effectively giving incentive to break down 25 mans. (X)
Aurora Yesterday, 6:05 PM Well for that 1% with a true love of 10 man raiding and weren't just doing it for the greater rewards with less effort it won't affect them. It's a lot less painful and damaging for communities to upsize 10 man guilds than what they did in cat (X)
Bobbygondo Yesterday, 5:26 PM The part that worries me is the better gear from 25 man, although I agree the wrath system was better then what we currently have forceing all the 10 man guilds that poped up in cata to go back to 25 man could do a lot of damage. (X)
Aurora Yesterday, 5:07 PM Would be great news if they are testing it. 25 man raiding without the overhead of 10 man convenience to get the same rewards would entice me back to raiding. (X)
Bobbygondo Yesterday, 3:23 PM http://manaflask.com/en/article/2053/korea-returns-to-separate-raid-lockouts-10-25 (X)
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Aurora
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Raiders have a responsibility to do as much as they feasibly can to aid their performance, in cata what was the possible you could achieve each week was a short order and also the feasible.
Towards the end of wrath, it was not and took prioritising. For guilds focusing on ICC 25 it was beneficial to run RS 25, RS 10, ICC 10 and TOC 25 as all contained some BiS items. It was also beneficial to finish Val'anyr's and heck even running a herb farm through Freya was important to keep in the guild bank afloat in the days when guild bank money was harder to come across. That's something in the range of 43 bosses that probably offered a benefit to somebody in your 25 man guild for current progress that could be killed every week. Very few did all that because it wasn't feasible. Guilds were in more in control of their gearing in the balance between farming and progression, whereas now luck plays a greater factor with everyone killing the same things and gearing as the luck gods dictate. On Gurth yes there'd have been pressure but I'd have happily welcomed that option, it'd have been a decision for the guild based on a case to case whether it was a diversion worth taking. Emphasis on decision, I'd have never viewed it as compulsary. Only worthwhile if the rewards justified it over doing something else.

Raiding might be stable right now but its stabilised in a bad place with the fewest active raiders since TBC and many small tight knit guild making it more daunting and intimidating for outsiders to get involved in the raiding culture. Changing raid locks destroy the functional state but it surely can't be a state that Blizzard is happy to stick with, it'd be drastic action but a risk worth taking.

You can't unburn a bridge and raiding will never be what it was, everyone knows that but you can certainly improve on a raiding model that played a strong role in driving cataclysm to uncharted depths for the series.
It'd be brave but I do think holding up their hands and trying to salvage what they can from the old model is the best course of action rather than sit on their hands and let the raiding cultures and realm communities diminish.
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