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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 3 2006, 06:39 PM (2,255 Views) | |
| Brazy CK | Jan 20 2006, 08:54 PM Post #136 |
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You don't think that a what a person thinks and says actually belongs to him? Who does it belong to, praytell? Oh, and by the way, that little note you made at the bottom of your post was completely irrelevent considering how illogical your argument was in that topic, anyway. |
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| sephiroth667 | Jan 20 2006, 09:02 PM Post #137 |
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Nostalgia
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When the fuck did this turn into a debate over what the word "search" means? Bush is doing something MINOR compared to what Clinton did before him. Clinton authroized personal searches, near strip searches, without a warrant. Carter did similar before him. You are going to let someone feel up your genitals without resistance, sure that's fine, but God forbid the government hears about how Sally is a slut. Those who don't believe in this make me sick. It is not like we are even using this on anyone, we are using this on suspected terrorists and those suspected to be in contact with terrorists. As much as you say the gov't want to pry in your life, I don't think they give a crap whether or not they know who your boyfriend is. Oh and Reaver, there is nothing to hear at Democratic meetings. Generally it's just a bunch of farting and "duuuurrr"s with the occasional retarded idea to bounce around. Oh, and a whole lot of ketchup and Dean Screeming. |
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| Crysta | Jan 20 2006, 09:12 PM Post #138 |
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wat
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Not really, even if the singing actually had a relevant undertone. Just asking, really. Maybe Sentenal was actually a name.
No. A conscience doesn't have the same chemical composition as a phone call. Nothing ever will other than a phone call. However, it does mean you can search for something with something other than your eyes, like with your ears for example. It doesn't have to be a physical act like you claim.
I think my house and the things I bought with my money are my possessions. I think myself is my own possession too and I would like a valid reason as to why I'm being seized.
It's a false sense of national security. If people want to blow us up, they're not going to tell us about it. Yeah, sure, they'll throw out empty threats... but the complex planning and the stuff we should worry more about will go unnoticed since no one is stupid enough (or at least shouldn't be) to contact us and explain themselves. Osama certainly wouldn't do that. So either they're lying to us and actually are searching through conversations we're having within our nation (I have a feeling most people who complain about this already think this is true), or they're setting this up to fool us into thinking we're safe. If the former is true there isn't any guarantee that the information won't be used against them in other issues (afterall, there ARE corrupt individuals in the government and investigation teams, believe it or not). Whether or not it is against the Constitution will always be debeatable because -- like the Bible -- it's been written a couple centuries ago and society has gone through some obvious changes. It'll be a battle of interpetation that should probably be left to the people who were entrusted to decide these things -- the courts, not forumites. If the latter is true, then great, we're a tick safer from before and spared the wrath of the degenerates of the terrorist brood. I'm still in danger of being nuked by Korea and Iran is looking pretty hostile right now. Lets not even get into the terrorists running about in our own nation. They don't all wear turbans and worship Allah, you know. My boyfriend has had his stores only robbed twice, that's all. But I guess that's completely different as well.
Lets not dredge up that dead horse. |
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen![]() Trophy Case
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| Brazy CK | Jan 20 2006, 09:13 PM Post #139 |
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Because being having a warrant is something that the law requires you to do in order to be able to search every half-assed threat that comes up? The whole controversy is that there is no restriction as to WHO the government is able to listen to. And I don't believe any government is pure enough not to abuse this power. Oh, and can we please leave the flaming of political parties out of this? |
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| sephiroth667 | Jan 20 2006, 09:32 PM Post #140 |
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The law may require that, but two presidents before Bush have implicated some form of this WITHOUT A WARRANT. Sure, no government is pure enough to not abuse this power, so? I doubt the government is going to care, as I stated before, what you say or do if you have nothing to hide. Most like 96% of the time it will be used what it was meant for, which is a lot considering the so few amount of times we choose to use it. And no, I will not, because that seems to be all I see in these topics- Bush Bashing and foolish liberal antics. Richie, as much as I respect you, you are keeping the same argument over and over again and it is getting demolished from several different points. Just because the books say we are a democracy does not mean we are- we are capitalists before we are democratic. The people can not be expected to win every single fight, so I don't see why you choose to go against this now when the main idea of this is to HELP us. |
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| Brazy CK | Jan 20 2006, 09:41 PM Post #141 |
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If only you had some proof to back that up. You are ignoring pages of arguments stating how absolutely no terrorists would be retarded enough to shout out their plans of attack on an open telephone connection in an enemy country. Liberal antics are one thing (one thing not deserving of the flaming you just did there, by the way), but I've yet to see one Bush-flaming statement not backed up with evidence... Unless I'm missing something? Seriously, point it out to me and I'll see your argument. And as much as I respect you, you are ignoring pages of arguments contradicting everything you're saying. I don't see one post where my arguments were "demolished". |
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| Crysta | Jan 20 2006, 09:44 PM Post #142 |
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wat
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OHNOES. I guess that makes what he does perfectly okay, somehow. Or perhaps it's because you're wondering why we're not griping about them. It may have something to do with THEM NOT BEING PRESIDENT ANY MORE.
So expect people not to trust it, maybe?
Are you the government? Do you know what they think? Do you have any idea of the number of possible ways they can screw you over if they wanted to? Or namely, if certain individuals wanted to? How about if they somehow make you out to be a threat to national security because your great great great grandfather was a member of the Ku Klux Klan? Your vote of confidence doesn't necessarily make me leap for joy. You're a kid like the rest of us.
Most statistics are inaccurate. Especially when they're made by questionable sources who have done little to no research.
Are you sure that's not just what you're willing to see? Bush has been mentioned very little in this thread. The rest is specifically for Richie, so I won't comment. He seems to do fine himself. |
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen![]() Trophy Case
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| Wind Sword | Jan 20 2006, 09:59 PM Post #143 |
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY
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I love how even though they gave the legal definition in the definition, they prefer the unrelated one that supports their ideas. Supposing wiretaps still fall under the def of "searching", than so does leading a basic criminal investigation. In otherwards, any information you have about a suspect goes down the drain. That part of my previous post was entirely ignored. Except for Crysta who said we should have seperate admendments for all of them. But not wiretapping? If listening in on calls needs a warrant, than overhearing any basic conversation won't hold up in court. It's a mockery of the justice system.
... Ummmmm, OK? Thanks!
Perish the thought that the not-actually-liberal media should bring only to light Republican antics. I didn't hear whining when Clinton claimed ultimate authority in all security matters.
No one says you can search a home without a warrant. You're putting words into our mouths.
Think? No. But the whole purpose of speaking is to communicate something you're thinking to another person. When you speak, you let your privacy down to say something.
Now, now, kindly keep the political slurs out of this.
You don't think we're worried about them? We are. Currently there is only one nation who doesn't think Iran is a threat; Iran. France has promised to go to war with us if it comes to it. FRANCE! That says something! And Korea is, in all honesty, not a threat. People are all freaked because they have weapons, but they've never even threatened us. We just want to stop someone else being hurt. For terrorist at home, we have police. @Richie-You might of misunderstood Senty's post. If I quote:
But now you base your entire arguement on three words on Dictionary.com. Do you get his point now? and here's your proof:
Two Democrats? Um yeah. And Clinton did it before he was elected a second time. And while they WEREN'T at war.
Actually, he's legally an adult. And can vote. And that's guilt by association, not allowed. It all comes down to whether you trust our President, and guess what? 51% did. We won. You lose. Get over it. Get an impeachment. Good luck with our New Supreme Court and our Republican dominated Senate. Is it unfair? Guess how much I care? This is first. Abortion, Gay Marriage, and "Under God" are next. And there's nothing any Democrat can do about it. The sooner you admit that it's lost up top, the sooner you can convert the population to save yourselves.
Pretty sure he made that up. By no means meant to be accurate. You are right, there is little Bush-Bashing. But I fear this isn't about presidental power, but rather Bush's power. If Kerry made it, we probably wouldn't even be discussing this. Again, calm down, Sephiroth. |
~~Wind Sword
Touching. Scientology
Smartest post ever made. | |
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| Brazy CK | Jan 20 2006, 10:16 PM Post #144 |
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Does the fact that they overheard it still make it moral? Does the fact that they're using it in a justice system make it any less an invasion of privacy? Besides, the private sector does not necessarily have an obligation to obey the law, that is, to 'search' and acquire information that was not intended to be public without first going through a process of evaluating the claim of whether or not the lead is worth it in the first place.
K.
Hell, I'm sure there was some, although since it wasn't brought into the public eye so much (no doubt due to the excessive liberalness of the media, yes), it's a null point, because that's in the past. What we're discussing is actually putting through a bill to break an part of the constitution, and whether or not the media chooses to advertise it isn't really part of the argument.
Admittedly, yes, words can be interpreted in different fashions, but I'm talking about another use of the word that is absolutely supported by the English language, not one that is just used in context. And the rest isn't addressed to me. |
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| sephiroth667 | Jan 20 2006, 10:23 PM Post #145 |
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Thank you Wind Sword, you summed everything up for me pretty much. Richie, if I am expected to find proof for everything I suggest everyone on your side do the same. The Bush Bashing I have seen are bias comments with proof from bias sources. Crysta, you say that terrorists are not stupid enough to use the phone, but guess what? If we DON'T tap the phones when we see necessary then they WILL use the phones, which is the most convenient way of communication next to email, and Lord knows we have that covered. So unless you have some alterior way of doing this, I suggest you drop that argument. Yeah, they aren't president anymore, but they once WERE rpesidents, and my point was that no one bitched about that when THEY implicated search without warrant. Your whole "how they could screw you" claim is canceled out by what WS said about privacy. The government could screw you, but so could little Jimmy from down the lane. Jimmy overhears you talking about how your middle name is Clarence. Oh Noes! Now he wants candy every day for a month so he won't tell. Sure, the government doesn't exactly want candy, but the argument is the same- You put yourself at risk every time you open your mouth. I shall calm down, but this is seriously nerve racking. |
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| Sentenal | Jan 20 2006, 10:28 PM Post #146 |
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Won the Impossible Debate (twice)
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Richie, do some research yourself, Clinton did authorize wire tapping, and several other things worse than what is happening here.
Thats just paranoia there. Why the hell would the government want to screw over your everyday guy for no reason? Your distrust of the government to protect you (by doing what they need to) will prevent them from protecting you.
I'm not following your logic here. Houses and things are possession. I guess you could consider yourself as a possession in some manner of the word, although thats an akward way of putting it. But are you saying that you yourself and what you say are the same thing? When you say something, anyone is free to hear it. You don't get to decide who gets to hear what you say. [edit]Windsword, your alot better at this than I am
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| invisobill | Jan 20 2006, 10:57 PM Post #147 |
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Why does it matter if you're being listened in on? The only reason you should want to hide anything is if A) the person listening in on you knows you personally, which is insanely doubtful, or
you are doing something unlawful that you need to hide.
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![]() Cor Noctur Mounted Knight Class: Lance Knight HP: 14 STR: 3 SKL: 4 SPD: 3 LUK: 2 DEF: 5 RES: 3 ![]() Formerly linkz117. | |
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| Crysta | Jan 20 2006, 11:12 PM Post #148 |
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wat
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Um. Right. It's a definition given in response to someone questioning it, so I don't see that.
If done without a warrant, which usually isn't the case, then yes. It can be. But in normal investigations a warrant is usually involved, unless I'm missing something here...
If you want to, go ahead. I think it's redundant. That was mostly done in sarcasm, since you seem to want to have every little thing outlined... well, when it's something you may not want to fall under the blanket definition, at least.
Only the government needs warrants. If I hear you it doesn't really matter. You may wanna hurt me, though.
Oh, I'm sure there's plenty of whining on Fox news. I could be like you guys and go throughout the history of presidential violations of some of our best Republican presidents, but since that has no relevance to the actual issue at hand and serves as nothing more than a device to somehow make myself feel morally superior and justified when I'm really not, but it doesn't look very appealing. And before someone brings up CNN and the liberal media again, I KNOW they're biased and shouldn't be regarded as reliable sources of information without first confronting that. So no problems there. And I KNOW there's been Democratic douchebags in office before. What makes you think all of us are down with everything they do? THEY'RE POLITICIANS.
I know you can't search a home without a warrant. That's not what I was saying. I was saying what I believed were and were not my belongings, thus whether or not they're protected from an unwarranted search. You're not comprehending.
You may not always say what you truly think. It's called lying. And that's not always the case anyway. You can be re-stateing a fact, for example. Simply communicating to someone doesn't warrant eavesdropping, anyway. You communicate through words in a journal, supposedly to the journal, but that doesn't make it any less private. Communication is more of a device to aid in comprehension and clarification, in my opinion. It means different things to different people, like a good portion of this entire debate.
You may be, but I have doubts about the current administration. I think Iran was much more of a threat to us than Iraq, but it was a much tougher job (thus, Iraq came first). Now we're not getting our hands dirty when it may actually matter because of the political atmosphere. I don't think they want any more plummeting approval ratings and their term is almost up (thus shifting the responsibility to the next administration). I don't think the next administration is gonna wanna take aggressive action in time, either. But that's just me and my cynicism. Maybe those sentiments will be somewhat subdued if McCain is elected instead of Hilary. But that's a whole other debate.
It's France. When's the last time they've actually won a military engagement? Only the most radical among us wouldn't know the reason why they're saying that...
Not yet, but I wouldn't underestimate the small island that beat us in 'Nam. Even though that technically was... Vietnam. They're still hostile, deceptive, and have weapons that could reach L.A. There may not be a whole lot of logic behind it, but I don't count on every other country being logical any more than I expect my own.
Okay, I guess I'll just wait until they come out and officially say they're gonna bomb us.
IT DOESN'T MATTER. Okay, you want me to say the obvious. They were wrong, vicious, immoral and deserve to be devoured by a pack of rabid hyenas. Geez.
So am I. I still consider myself a kid, but fine. We're big people now.
Normally, hopefully, yes. But you know... our government HAS done that in the past. McCarthy anyone? Nutcases get in.
We did get over it. I'm not entirely sure if you guys have. Given all the bragging, I don't see why you don't expect the liberals to be a little bit on the peeved side. You bring all that up and then you tag on "get over it". Makes a lot of sense, really. If I was president I would have liked the elections to be a little more one-sided, anyway. That's a pretty big losing side.
I can suggest you go jump off a cliff, but I'm realistic enough not to get my hopes high. I go back to my earlier statement: it's an attempt to make us think we're safe. We're not. Safer by a small measure, but not the safest we could be. If they don't use the phones, you're spending too much attention on something futile and probably could be investing it in more productive pursuits. I'm not going to give you an alternative way to catch the terrorists, since obviously our own government can't figure one out. But if you want to think this makes you safe and sound because I can't, go ahead. It is of no consequence to me. I know better.
No one was AWARE of it, otherwise I don't see why we wouldn't have made such a stink. Or at least I didn't know, and I don't think your main audience here did either. You're crying over spilt milk. If it makes you feel better, give me their addresses and I'll lay a pile of flaming dog poop on their doorstep.
How? They could still screw you over. It's just a matter of whether or not they're justified in their screwing, which I said will be debateable until the world ends.
And little Jimmy is a prick and unjustified in his candy-stealing. You see, if you abadon all moral emphasis on such things, that's when it doesn't matter and you can do whatever you want. Unfortunately our country is a democracy and hasn't reached that stage, eh? We feel obligated to be morally right in what we do.
We can only distress you with your permission.
Who said it wasn't for a reason? Honestly, if they would tap me, I wouldn't really care. My life isn't interesting enough to worry about it, but others may, and it's not because they may be terrorists. Here is where we differ in opinion: what they "need" to do. Did wire tapping prevent 9/11? No. It was even more preventable than wiretapping. All we really needed to do was investigate the warnings. Sorry, but the government isn't perfect, even if it's better than most of the others. Sometimes you need to protect yourself from it. That applies to all governments.
Eh, something got lost in translation and I'm too lazy to scroll up and figure it out. I don't know who else would own my words, though.
I can take measures to limit the possibility of certain people from hearing to the point where it's near-impossible. And government secrets aren't "free" for anyone to hear most of the time, being secrets and all. I don't see why that doesn't apply to anyone else. You can hear it, but there are consequences, so it's only "free" in the monetary sense. |
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen![]() Trophy Case
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| Reaver | Jan 20 2006, 11:25 PM Post #149 |
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Troll
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They could listen in on anyone without any sort of paperwork it happened. That means that the Republicans/Democrats can abuse this to learn political secrets by accusing the other party of having terrorist ties, even if it is false. That would create an America ruled by one party, therefore eliminating democracy. |
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| Sentenal | Jan 20 2006, 11:41 PM Post #150 |
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Won the Impossible Debate (twice)
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I'm going to leave most of that for Windsword, since hes better at this than me, but I'll comment on some things here.
If someone in the government says something top-secret (he leaks it), its fair game for anyone. How exactly do you think we know about this?
The government didn't do enough to prevent 9/11. There are alot of things that the government needs to do in order to protect us. Wire tapping suspected terrorist in order to possible get information about an attack is something we need to do. Thats not all we need to do, however. Quiet frankly, I believe you only need to protect yourself from the government in peace time. In wartime, they are trying to protect you. Protecting yourself from your protector is counter-productive. And just a note: Remmber people, we arn't a democracy. We are a republic. |
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you are doing something unlawful that you need to hide.



3:16 AM Jul 11