Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]


Welcome to Fusion. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!

If you are registering with a Yahoo e-mail address, or if you are having trouble receiving your validation e-mail, please refer to this topic for assistance.


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Wait a minute....
Topic Started: Jan 3 2006, 06:39 PM (2,261 Views)
Brazy CK
Member Avatar
5 warnings=ban

Wind Sword
Jan 4 2006, 09:07 PM
I can't envision a situation in which that would happen. One would have to be overly paranoid. Besides, if the person has no reason to be listened in to, I think they wouldn't fear as much. it's a slim possibility at the least.

Paranoid? ...Maybe.

I just have a hard time envisioning any government so pure that they wouldn't take the opportunity to abuse this.

=/
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sephiroth667
Member Avatar
Nostalgia

Richie
Jan 5 2006, 03:38 AM
Wind Sword
Jan 4 2006, 09:07 PM
I can't envision a situation in which that would happen. One would have to be overly paranoid. Besides, if the person has no reason to be listened in to, I think they wouldn't fear as much. it's a slim possibility at the least.

Paranoid? ...Maybe.

I just have a hard time envisioning any government so pure that they wouldn't take the opportunity to abuse this.

=/

Depends what you would rather have- Terrorists abusing the ability to use the telephone or the government abusing the power to stop them. Even though I am damn near sure very little gov't abusing will go on, the latter sounds nicer anywho
Quote:
 
Up here in Canada government officials have shoes thrown at them all of the time
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Superbus
Member Avatar


Wind Sword
Jan 3 2006, 11:39 PM
Who cares if the President can tap all our phones? The only ones he'll tap are those who are suspected terrorists. And even if they're wrong, so they don't hear anything.

The government doesn't care if you're cheating on your wife or dissing your boss. The only thing they'll use against you is if you admit to a crime over the phone. And isn't that a good thing?

Is it a violation of your rights? Probably. Should we care? I'm not so sure.

Who does care? People with something to hide... <<>>

"Well, we were worried about something else... but while we're at it, you said something we don't approve of about our government... you know saying those things about the President is against the law... you are under arrest..."

That is what people fear.

That, and the people actually doing the grunt work... well, stories travel. "Dawg, you should have heard what that woman in Nebraska was talking about! Some dude did DP to her! Man, she's a little slut!" Weather there's a name attached to that or not, people fear having their liberties tapped into like that.

ESPECIALLY with the other liberties we've lost all in the name of "Security".
Posted Image

Avatar approved by JAFFAR AND EAICHU!!!!!

Please forward all complaints about my avatar and signatures to your nearest brick wall. You won't get anything out of it, but it will pay more attention to you than I will. ;)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sentenal
Member Avatar
Won the Impossible Debate (twice)

Quote:
 
But freedom of speech institutes the fact that no power can prevent what you speak, think, or print unless it is libel (which is an entirely different topic), and don't you think invasion of privacy will limit what people want to say when they don't know who's listening?

Freedom of Speech says you can say whatever you want (barring slander and libel), but that doesn't mean that you have right to decide who hears it.
Posted Image[/center]
Conquered FEFF Awards

Quote:
 
Laharl: 48/2(9+3)=36
Quote:
 
Laharl: Also, you can't multiply a number by one.
Quote:
 
Laharl: 1 cannot be used as a multiplier.
Quote:
 
Laharl: I wasn't good at math. That doesn't make me an idiot!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Wind Sword
Member Avatar
SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY

Superbus
Jan 5 2006, 03:49 AM
"Well, we were worried about something else... but while we're at it, you said something we don't approve of about our government... you know saying those things about the President is against the law... you are under arrest..."

That is what people fear.

That, and the people actually doing the grunt work... well, stories travel. "Dawg, you should have heard what that woman in Nebraska was talking about! Some dude did DP to her! Man, she's a little slut!" Weather there's a name attached to that or not, people fear having their liberties tapped into like that.

ESPECIALLY with the other liberties we've lost all in the name of "Security".

What people fear is against the law and unbased. Otherwise Michael Moore would be on death-row. Ohhhhhhh... I just got chills saying that...

What liberties have we lost in the name of security?

Grunt work is one thing, but keep in mind they don't exactly have a medium to tell the world. Unless they wiretapped some huge celebrity, no one would care. And no celebrities are suspected of being terrorists. Not to mention telling the world about what you overheard would mean telling them you tapped them, and that would raise questions as why to someone was being tapped with no clear connection to terrorism. It would cost them their job, and throw them in jail.

Hold the phone! I just recieved some news in my favor, from none other than George Bush himself!

Apparently, the wiretaps were only used in phone calls between people in the United States AND OTHER COUNTRIES. So only you have a mistress in Guam, are subscribing to Playboy Germany, or talking to your Cousin Vinny in Italy, your conversations wouldn't matter anyways.

That's not to mention, these other countries are definately in the Middle East. Countries that doesn't garauntee the freedom of speech. All you have to do is use the words of the other man in there to, and any freedom of privacy evaporates in the air.

That's not to mention Bush said he authorized the wiretaps thirty times. Ummmm... he's not exactly running his own Gestapo here.

Bush is the first President to claim inherent self-authority, without Congress, over security matters. Oh what's that you say? President CLINTON said the same thing? He said he held supreme power over national security when Aldrich Ames sold CIA secrets? I don't recall the liberal media caring back then.
~~Wind Sword

Quote:
 
Please keep Christian bashing to a minimum. This is mainly the American South (and mainly Evangelical death cults), which is similar to Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Touching.

Scientology
Quote:
 
Clones are create and people can't bore a clone. Scientifically they are called born and not created. The only way to pre-determine their genes is if they are already out in the world usually in a pod that would resemble the sac in a mothers womb. Take Star Wars for example.

Smartest post ever made.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Severian
Member Avatar
Bucket/Schtolteheim from FEW

Wind Sword
Jan 4 2006, 09:56 PM
Richie
Jan 5 2006, 02:52 AM
Punishment Divine
Jan 4 2006, 07:44 PM
@Wind Sword- I'm just trying to get the lad started. Debate only becomes fun when it's on the brink of flaming.

@OmniHax- That is the most REDICULOUS thing I have ever heard. Sure, compared to the population something like a mall bombing may be small, but those people matter. The whole idea is to make sure NO ONE is harmed in our own country due to carelessness, lord knows the libs would be on that in a second not to mention that, despite your agreeing with Freedom of Speech and privacy, you obviously don't believe in a right to protection if you think that way. Life is precious. No matter how small. Not to mention that if we get hid with a nuclear weapon, not only will those cought in the blast be effected (Which if it hits NYC, don't plan on seeing me again because I'll be dead living on Long Island and all) but those who survive within hundreds of miles around will be affected with radiation. Shit, look at Japan. I am near positive their children still have an alarming mutation and SIDS rate.

@Richie- Regardless of what you believe about Bush and whatnot, Lucas is correct. Don't go jumping around the issue. Although I will admit Sentenal is a bit rough in his conservativism, he is mostly correct too. Also, I have yet to see exact proof of what freedoms and such are guarenteed like you say. Post specifics from the Constitution.

Dur

Uh. I'm not sure whether to be amused or frightened.

You are saying that freedom does not include freedom of privacy?

Then just tear down the falls of my bathroom, open my hardrive to the public and feature all of my taped phone conversations on the FEFusion website! :D

Actually, it doesn't :unsure: . There is nothing about privacy in the Constitution. Otherwise regular wire-taps wouldn't be allowed at all.

Nope, there is. Well, I honestly can't remember if Bill of Rights are contained within the constitution,

American Law
 
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Of course, it's likely that one could eventually argue that preventing terrorism is an absolute probable cause that allows us to tap phone lines. Also, it's notable that this is a dated law, before tapping of phone conversations existed. So it is probable that phone convos don't fall under the above law.

Anyway, my real problem is worrying we aren't doing enough in more important areas. My memory is hazy, but I remember hearing a while back online about how easy it is to smuggle things via boats and stuff, and talking about how easy it would be to get things into the country illegally without any real surveillance if you could get aid from the boat crew and such. Not sure about how accurate it was, and I'm too lazy to look for pages on boat security.

However, I'll give an example of something I'm radically against: racial profiling. No, not because I'm worried about people being racist. The problem is the idea that arabs might be put through more serious searches than others at airports, for instance, is that carries an undertone that we're worried we'll miss certain kinds of weapons on searches we might use on other people. Considering 9/11, we should be putting everyone through the same searches no matter their race, and those searches should be the highest security level we feel we need to apply. Not only using the highest security levels at random. However, I'll admit I'm not even too sure whether racial profiling is used at airports, so it's kind of absurd for me to complain about it; I'm just arguing against rumored techniques.

In terms of more security in general, I will always have a certain paranoia that the government will use its power to incriminate people and such because I'm a paranoid bastard. Can you blame me? I've read enough cases from past and present about corruption within liber/conserv movements in terms of money and the like that I'm distrustful of both sides of government at this point. But as of right now, I don't have anything to hide, so I don't care. I don't like the patriot acts that I've read, though, because of non-security related clauses in the Act.
[size=5]"We must also remember that the emotions have a logic of their own, for which the formula is 'I feel sure that this is so.'"[/size]
~JAK Thomson, Rhetorical Prose

Thinking of Maud, You Forget Everything Else
Red Pandas are so cute it makes me sick.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Wind Sword
Member Avatar
SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY

.............
Dude, that's about search warrants. Completely unrelated.
~~Wind Sword

Quote:
 
Please keep Christian bashing to a minimum. This is mainly the American South (and mainly Evangelical death cults), which is similar to Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Touching.

Scientology
Quote:
 
Clones are create and people can't bore a clone. Scientifically they are called born and not created. The only way to pre-determine their genes is if they are already out in the world usually in a pod that would resemble the sac in a mothers womb. Take Star Wars for example.

Smartest post ever made.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sentenal
Member Avatar
Won the Impossible Debate (twice)

In terms of Securty, we have to trust our government. If we don't trust our government to defend us, and so we don't le them do certain things (because we don't trust them), they won't be able to do whats nessisary.

Thats not to say trust them in everything. I for one don't trust the government with spending or money management. Even my own party. Even my president. I don't trust any of them to be responsible with it, because they ALL waste it, republican and democrat. But thats a different topic...
Posted Image[/center]
Conquered FEFF Awards

Quote:
 
Laharl: 48/2(9+3)=36
Quote:
 
Laharl: Also, you can't multiply a number by one.
Quote:
 
Laharl: 1 cannot be used as a multiplier.
Quote:
 
Laharl: I wasn't good at math. That doesn't make me an idiot!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Brazy CK
Member Avatar
5 warnings=ban

Sentenal
Jan 5 2006, 06:59 PM
In terms of Securty, we have to trust our government. If we don't trust our government to defend us, and so we don't le them do certain things (because we don't trust them), they won't be able to do whats nessisary.

Thats not to say trust them in everything. I for one don't trust the government with spending or money management. Even my own party. Even my president. I don't trust any of them to be responsible with it, because they ALL waste it, republican and democrat. But thats a different topic...

And I agree, we NEED to be able to trust our government, but I don't know if I can do it to the extent of giving them supreme control of our various forms of transmissions. =/
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Severian
Member Avatar
Bucket/Schtolteheim from FEW

Wind Sword
Jan 5 2006, 07:48 PM
.............
Dude, that's about search warrants. Completely unrelated.

Quote:
 
Actually, it doesn't unsure.gif . There is nothing about privacy in the Constitution. Otherwise regular wire-taps wouldn't be allowed at all.

"There is nothing about privacy in the Constitution".

Also, again, I was saying I wasn't sure how the law would be interpreted in modern day, and moreover something I forgot to mention was that there is likely some sort of legislation dealing with phone tapping....well, geez, I guess that'd be the patriot act, probably :)

Quote:
 
In terms of Securty, we have to trust our government. If we don't trust our government to defend us, and so we don't le them do certain things (because we don't trust them), they won't be able to do whats nessisary.

Thats not to say trust them in everything. I for one don't trust the government with spending or money management. Even my own party. Even my president. I don't trust any of them to be responsible with it, because they ALL waste it, republican and democrat. But thats a different topic...

((I assume you're responding to my thing about money))
It's not wasting money I'm talking about. It's straight out corruption; I'm talking about where the right and left get their money from - as a conservative, you'd probably be more happy to hear about the left as an example. Well, it's dated, but Covert Cadre was a long book I've heard about, never actually read, with huge amounts of research on various connections between a leftist think-tank and Russia during the Cold War. What makes me suspicious when I hear about cases like this, though, isn't the actual funding that worries me; it's how both sides attack the other for corruption and the like while ignoring their own. I don't know I could trust either side with such a large amount of control over hearing, and (as I said before, I'm crazy paranoid) changing what people say over the phone.

But, someone said wire taps only were used 30 times. Makes my paranoia fade quite a lot.
[size=5]"We must also remember that the emotions have a logic of their own, for which the formula is 'I feel sure that this is so.'"[/size]
~JAK Thomson, Rhetorical Prose

Thinking of Maud, You Forget Everything Else
Red Pandas are so cute it makes me sick.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sentenal
Member Avatar
Won the Impossible Debate (twice)

I was mostly refering to alot of people here have a huge distrust in our government to wire tap responsibly, saying we should trust our government. I brought up money, as an area where you shouldn't trust government. More along the lines of spending, bloated budgets, etc etc.
Posted Image[/center]
Conquered FEFF Awards

Quote:
 
Laharl: 48/2(9+3)=36
Quote:
 
Laharl: Also, you can't multiply a number by one.
Quote:
 
Laharl: 1 cannot be used as a multiplier.
Quote:
 
Laharl: I wasn't good at math. That doesn't make me an idiot!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
(*Jman*)
Member Avatar
Kakatte Koi!

Riiiiiiiight.

Ok, so what if the gov't makes a new bill that lets them install cameras everywhere in everyone's house? Surely you aren't doing anything illegal, so you shouldn't care what the gov't sees you doing.

Let's take a look at teh past of terrorist attacks in teh USA.

Taken from Infoplease.

1 in 1920
1 in 1975
1 in 1993
1 in 1995
1 in 2001

Should we really let teh gov't tap phones forever for 5 terrorist attacks in 81 years? There has GOT to be a better way to stop terrorist attacks than that. How? I don't have a clue. But that's what teh CIA is supposed to be doing, not me.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bladelord
Member Avatar


I'm taking it that noone in your family died on September 11th? People that have actually felt an impact on these terrorist attacks, however few there might be probably aren't sitting at their computers talking about how 5 attacks in 80 years is no big deal. To them it's a really big deal.

As for this tactic in negating terrorist attacks.... I would be alright with the phones tapped, but camera's in my house, I don't think so.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Superbus
Member Avatar


Bladelord, you're a smart kid, but hear this:

I was AT September 11th. And I think the Patriot Act, and all this wiretapping stuff is a crock of shit.
Posted Image

Avatar approved by JAFFAR AND EAICHU!!!!!

Please forward all complaints about my avatar and signatures to your nearest brick wall. You won't get anything out of it, but it will pay more attention to you than I will. ;)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Wind Sword
Member Avatar
SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY

Superbus is right, kind of. But so is Bladelord.

I think what Bladelord's trying to get across is that OmniHax makes it out like there's been a small amount of terrorist attacks, which is true. But he forgets to mention that in the last one, 2,000 plus people were murdered, and America dragged into war.

And why isn't Pearl Harbor on that list?
~~Wind Sword

Quote:
 
Please keep Christian bashing to a minimum. This is mainly the American South (and mainly Evangelical death cults), which is similar to Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Touching.

Scientology
Quote:
 
Clones are create and people can't bore a clone. Scientifically they are called born and not created. The only way to pre-determine their genes is if they are already out in the world usually in a pod that would resemble the sac in a mothers womb. Take Star Wars for example.

Smartest post ever made.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create a free forum in seconds.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply



Theme by Lewis of the ZetaBoard Theme Zone, Outline and Talk Themes