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| God and Historical American Documents; Flamekettle topic. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 24 2006, 10:52 PM (919 Views) | |
| Lordemblem | Jan 26 2006, 11:01 PM Post #31 |
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FEF's resident Anarchist
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It would be nice if everything was just left alone in this debate. It was set that way long ago *fifty years or whatever* no-ones had a problem with it until now, so really it should be left as our great country was founded like it or not on religion. It's there, has been there, and really there's no reason to change it, what progress would it make? It would make most of the aetheist's happy but considering that the Country was founded on religion I see little sense in changing something for a small group of people that have a problem with what we were founded on. |
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| Soja | Jan 26 2006, 11:03 PM Post #32 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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Notice that that postulate only addresses the Federal Congress. Every State has its own legislature, so unfortunately it is not so simple as that. I call "the endorsement of a religion" "pedestaling," because it sounds more offensive. |
![]() Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9 & 10, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09 & 10, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover How to Get Banned From FEFF 1. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to verbally warn you. 2. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to actually warn you. 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 again, getting suspended for a few days. 5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged. 6. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 7. Do all this in the course of a month. 8. ???? 9. PROFIT!!! Congratulations! You've been banned from FEFF! | |
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| Brazy CK | Jan 26 2006, 11:20 PM Post #33 |
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5 warnings=ban
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I was mostly countering the fact that he said that separation of church and state never appeared in the Constitution, and since the Constitution refers to the country as a whole, I am assuming that 'state' refers to the federal government. =. |
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| Soja | Jan 26 2006, 11:59 PM Post #34 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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I know, Richie. But each State has its own Constitution with its own amendments and its own laws. Accordingly, as long as those laws don't conflict with the U.S. Constitution, they're as legitimate as the courts allow them to be. I'm actually quite interested in seeing what the Federal Supreme Court would have to say about this issue if it's ever brought before it. The State law of Tennessee mandates a moment of silence and the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools each morning, for example. It might be different in at least one of fifty States. |
![]() Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9 & 10, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09 & 10, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover How to Get Banned From FEFF 1. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to verbally warn you. 2. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to actually warn you. 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 again, getting suspended for a few days. 5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged. 6. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 7. Do all this in the course of a month. 8. ???? 9. PROFIT!!! Congratulations! You've been banned from FEFF! | |
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| Sentenal | Jan 27 2006, 12:34 AM Post #35 |
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Won the Impossible Debate (twice)
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Actually, that admendment just says that we can't have a state sponsored religion. Which is a good thing. But it doesn't mean things of religion have to stay far way from things of government. |
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| Crysta | Jan 27 2006, 01:33 AM Post #36 |
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wat
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I always thought it meant the government would not make a law specifically favoring one religion, to preserve and protect our religious liberty, given this land was founded by people who wanted to escape religious persecution in England. It's twofold. The government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Religion is free from government control. On the other hand, it ensures that government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines since the country is not wholly one religion. In other words "the church won't screw around with us, and we won't screw around with the church." |
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen![]() Trophy Case
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| Soja | Jan 27 2006, 01:42 AM Post #37 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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There is a huge, long, confusing list of articles and lines delineating how the government would handle religion, but that's about right (as far as most of us are going to care, anyway). This is a main reason why many charities try to gain sponsorship under a church or temple -- because they are exempt from Federal taxes. In my opinion, though, the Pilgrims escaped the religious persecution in England so that they could start their own here. See: The Crucible (book), Salem Witch Trials (history), Hocus Pocus (film) |
![]() Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9 & 10, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09 & 10, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover How to Get Banned From FEFF 1. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to verbally warn you. 2. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to actually warn you. 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 again, getting suspended for a few days. 5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged. 6. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 7. Do all this in the course of a month. 8. ???? 9. PROFIT!!! Congratulations! You've been banned from FEFF! | |
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| Crysta | Jan 27 2006, 01:45 AM Post #38 |
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wat
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And look how well they turned out. XD There's also the whole making your own fortune on the tobacco while not planting any food crops before winter comes in, too, but there's no need to get into the specifics. |
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen![]() Trophy Case
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| Soja | Jan 27 2006, 02:12 AM Post #39 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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That was much farther south in Virginia by a different group. The Englanders headed there independently of the Pilgrims. FOR GOLD. <Napoleon>Idiots!</Napoleon> |
![]() Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9 & 10, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09 & 10, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover How to Get Banned From FEFF 1. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to verbally warn you. 2. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to actually warn you. 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 again, getting suspended for a few days. 5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged. 6. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 7. Do all this in the course of a month. 8. ???? 9. PROFIT!!! Congratulations! You've been banned from FEFF! | |
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| Wind Sword | Jan 27 2006, 01:01 PM Post #40 |
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY
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I don't see how censoring God out of the media entirely is religous freedom. It's freedom for those who want to deny God's existance. Christmas and Easter have already been destroyed beyond recognization. There was already a Supreme Court ruling about Under God in the pledge. They kept it in. But I see some people won't give up until the freedom of religion basically becomes complete. I believe in God. Some don't. So? I miss the part were the guy with a gun to your head made you recite the pledge. No one's making you do it. because you carry money that says In God We Trust on it, does not mean you have to believe in God. In England, their National Anthem is God Save the Queen. NO ONE CARES. Everyone realizes that it's a song of patriotic importance, and the God part can be seen as not having to do with God. I'm sure atheists say "Oh God!" I don't see how the government endorsing a religion takes away from the individual freedom of religion anyways. |
~~Wind Sword
Touching. Scientology
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| Reaver | Jan 27 2006, 03:56 PM Post #41 |
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Troll
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This is easily the most retarded thing Atheists/Politically correct activists have sparked. For one thing, I would like to say this. Most people in the 1700's believed in some sort of diety, most of the population still does today. Boo hoo, people share different beliefs. Why should we rip down every nativity scene in a public place when you can put a giant Star of David in a public place too? Not to mention you could throw in a giant Santa, a Koran, a Bhudda stature, hell even a Zeus statue! Religious tolerance means allowing people to have freedom to celebrate, not the government's right to censor it all. |
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| Crysta | Jan 27 2006, 05:22 PM Post #42 |
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wat
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It only does when you try to force the standards it upholds onto everyone else. Example: because <insert religion here> believes <insert act or object or whatever here> is evil, no one can use <insert act or object or whatever here> while they're in that country. Obviously we do have some religious influence on our laws, but they usually have safety of the public in mind as well. To put simply, if we were a theocracy. Like Soja said, here the majority wins, and if the majority is of one religion inevitably religion will play an indirect role. But then Joe Smoe comes to the court citing that <insert law here> is unconstitutional and it may be struck down if that is indeed the case, for better or for worse. |
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| Sentenal | Jan 27 2006, 06:28 PM Post #43 |
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Won the Impossible Debate (twice)
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But fortunately, our constitution prevents theocracy, so simple "endorsements" of religion won't bring about that. |
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| Soja | Jan 27 2006, 07:24 PM Post #44 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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That's easy to say now, but the most difficult changes to counter are the ones that occur gradually. Under your nose. In the shadows. Or, as the case might be, in the open. For years now the lunatic fringe Christian right-wing has been pushing for laws banning gay acts. Not gay marriage, gay acts. I read about a case in Texas once. It was around Houston. Allegedly, two gay lovers were arrested on the grounds that they were having sexual relations. If I remember correctly, sodomy is a banned behavior there. Now, not only is that discriminatory but it is also illogical and a logistical nightmare. Now, while no Constitution guarantees a right to privacy, it also does allow for the squelching of freedom of speech. In a sense, one could see the act of sex as an expression of "love" (or in many cases "lust"), and therefore the government has no business trying to control those aspects. Now, who other than the LFRWCs (lunatic-fringe right-wing Christians) would pass a law like that? To this day, I haven't heard any more about that case. It would seem to me that the law has either been struck down or upheld. I don't know. This is a way in which I consider religion illegitimately taking a stranglehold on the law. Also it is written in the Constitution that though the rights of the many are the majority, the majority cannot use that power to quash the rights of the few. Now. "In God We Trust" has been on the U.S. currency since 1952, and it is considered the U.S. national motto (yes, considered even higher on the scale than "E Pluribus Unum"); it has been on coins longest, though, since 1864 (on a two-cent piece no longer minted today). It was not made official until the 1950s, but its source is one we are all familiar with. In the original version of "The Star-Spangled Banner," Francis Scott Key wrote this line: "... And this be our motto: In God is our trust." Wiki Wiki Personally, I've gotten sick of the whole argument, but I know it will never end. Appeasing one side will result in a rallying of the other side. I say that the motto "In God We Trust" is a part of our history and should remain on our currency. But if it is removed, I won't throw a fit either. I can't argue with Teddy Roosevelt's logic on the matter, since he and Andrew Jackson are probably homies now. |
![]() Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9 & 10, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09 & 10, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover How to Get Banned From FEFF 1. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to verbally warn you. 2. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to actually warn you. 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 again, getting suspended for a few days. 5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged. 6. Repeat steps 1 and 2. 7. Do all this in the course of a month. 8. ???? 9. PROFIT!!! Congratulations! You've been banned from FEFF! | |
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| Reaver | Jan 28 2006, 12:01 AM Post #45 |
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Troll
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Anyone got a problem with Annuit Coeptis on our dollar? |
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