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| Prefered Paladin | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 23 2006, 12:15 AM (2,284 Views) | |
| C475_1337 | Nov 26 2006, 01:34 PM Post #76 |
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One serious d00d
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Guy's "very high starting power" fizzles out pretty fast, so if you only like him when he's overwhelming compared to your other units, I imagine you'd drop him after the early Chapters. It's also worth noting that a LvL 10 HHM Guy is barely better than a LvL 10 HHM Raven. In fact, HHM Raven's offense at LvL 5 is better than that of most units at LvL 10. His durability is nothing to write home about, but neither is Guy's. Raven still strikes me as an excellent pick, and I'm not sure who you'd see as better than him in pure combat(with the obvious exceptions of Hector and Oswin); even in NM, he has the best offense in the entire game and above-average defense, and HHM Bonuses only improve on that. I don't understand how he can be called "underlevelled" or "a pain to raise," either; even from 5 Levels down, Raven doesn't have trouble killing things on his own, not any more than the rest of the team, at least. If anything, that's a plus for him, since it means he can help the Exp Rating without hurting Combat. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Nov 26 2006, 01:48 PM Post #77 |
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Power of Flower
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I personally find Raven to be the 7th best unit in the game, by the way. I just find Guy to be 6th. His high starting power doesn't fizzle out. He consistently gains SKL and SPD, and his HP will go up almost every time to make him stay durable enough. His STR isn't whoamg amazing, but he reliably hits and doubles every unit in the game and gets good enough STR to deal damage. He hits over 20 STR in hard mode. |
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| C475_1337 | Nov 26 2006, 01:56 PM Post #78 |
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One serious d00d
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If the game ended around Dragon's Gate, I could see Guy as one of the very best you have. Unfortunately for him, the game goes on. Relative to the rest of the team, Guy's offense is bad once you get past the first 10 or so Chapters. His Spd is very high, of course, but once the early Chapters are done, alot of that massive Spd is just overkill, and his Str is very shabby even with HHM Bonuses(Raven has the same Str at 20/1 as Guy at 20/11). He will frequently need either a Crit or a pricy weapon to reliably kill the same enemies that units such as, say, Raven are killing with Iron or Steel Weapons. And then, as I've said already, his durability is nothing special. Being locked to Swords is a downer to both his offense and defense, as well. That's not the makings of the 6th best unit in the game, in my eyes. Certainly not a Better Than Raven unit, at least. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Eaichu | Nov 26 2006, 02:28 PM Post #79 |
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Leadership
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Raven does all of that, except he's stronger, and can use axes. |
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| Inui | Nov 26 2006, 02:45 PM Post #80 |
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Power of Flower
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Raven also has substantially less dodge and RES, and won't be as accurate as Guy. CATS: You bring up good points, but I value the early game a lot more than the midgame and lategame because of what I said earlier. |
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| Psiwri | Nov 26 2006, 02:47 PM Post #81 |
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Too Many Words
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He won't lose in accuracy so much as to really miss more often. And magic units are easily identified and one won't bother Raven with his high end HP. |
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| Inui | Nov 26 2006, 02:49 PM Post #82 |
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Power of Flower
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I don't like Guy. At all. I like a leveled up Raven more than a leveled up Guy. I just thought I'd point that out. But, because I value the early game more and find Raven's huge stat holes in LUK and RES to be nearly intolerable(I am a huge fan of RNG proof units), I find Guy to be more useful due to having no stat holes early on, and his stat flaws only being small in the later half the game. Raven's problem with RES lasts forever, and his LUK takes forever to not suck. |
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| Eaichu | Nov 26 2006, 02:51 PM Post #83 |
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Leadership
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His two point lead in RES is not "substantially less". Please don't kindly ignore the HP differences between them either, where Raven has a more significant advantage. Furthermore, the RES lead isn't even apparent until 15/0 and after promotion, Seth. So you can have a unit that sometimes is able to kill enemies in one round with Iron Sword. Or you can have Raven, who is pretty much guaranteed to do alot more damage with Iron Axe/Steel Sword. Guy can't even wield Steel Sword without losing 4 points of SPD. Which at Level 20/10, makes Raven *faster* than Guy... and of course, Guy does have 6 more points of LUK, so he will dodge just a little bit more... but the gap is not really as large as you make it out to be. Raven will still be able to do alot more damage in one round, and can match enemies with WTA more often than Guy can.
What is this major problem with RES that Raven has that Guy doesn't have? Disregarding HM bonus, Raven averages 3.2 RES at Level 20/0. Guy averages 4.3. A 1.1 difference. At 20/10, Raven averages 6.6 RES. Guy averages 7.5. A 1.2 difference. How is that such a major stat hole? Even with HM bonus, that gap is hardly closed! So that leaves LUK-- you're basically trading LUK for STR in this scenario. |
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| Psiwri | Nov 26 2006, 02:53 PM Post #84 |
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Too Many Words
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And has a fair amount more defense, so that against melee enemies (which I sure hope are what you'd pit him against) his overall survivability is higher. =/ |
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| Inui | Nov 26 2006, 03:00 PM Post #85 |
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Power of Flower
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Raven only wins by 3 points in HP and 3.1 points in DEF. Guy wins by 15 in avoid and 2 in RES. I don't see how Raven is more durable. @Eaichu: Yes, both units blow chunks in RES as far as I'm concerned. But, even with a hard mode bonus, Raven averages less than 10. Less than 10 in anything at 20/20 = lmao. Guy wins by 7 in LUK but only loses by 4 in STR. I think that's a fair trade. |
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| Eaichu | Nov 26 2006, 03:14 PM Post #86 |
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Leadership
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But what about the earlygame, which you seem to stress so strongly? Let's compare a 10/0 Guy to 10/0 Raven. Raven 29.3 HP 10.8 STR 13.0 SKL 15.3 SPD 6.3 DEF 1.8 RES 3.8 LUK 8 CON Guy 26.3 HP 8.1 STR 14.5 SKL 15.9 SPD 6.0 DEF 1.8 RES 8.2 LUK 5 CON(...) There isn't even a RES gap here to be noted. I pointed this out in my earlier post with 15/0 statistics, which is when Guy starts to gain the advantage. Furthermore, there's no way Guy can outdamage Raven without worrying about his own SPD stat(Which will plummet if he equips anything heavy, he loses FIVE points in SPD before promotion. Raven will still outdamage him tremendously, and maybe get hit.. just a little more often, if barely more often? 8 LUK to 3 LUK is only 5 points of dodge. You can randomly apply HM bonus to both of them, but since both of them gain about the same differences. It's about 2 to each stat, with a stronger boost to HP(Such as 5-6)
Even 2 points less? Just because you think it's amusing for a unit to have less than 10 doesn't make it a very substantial difference. I barely even commented on whether they both have bad RES or not, I'm pointing out the very simple fact that just because Raven has 2 points less on average into his final levels does not make the difference very significant. Furthermore, Raven will cap HP earlier than Guy. He'll have about a 4-5 point lead before that. You can verify this by comparing 20/15 statistics.
I wouldn't say so. Guy still can't use axes. Guy still loses avoid from equipping heavier weapons, so it's not like he gains a tremendous amount. You've played S rank, haven't you? What are the default weapons that you use? Iron/Steel of any weapon rank, because other weapons are COSTLY and DRAIN funding if used in excess. While Guy loses 4 STR, let's compare their damage. Guy wielding Iron Sword(So he keeps his 15 dodge!) and Raven wielding Iron Axe. Using... 20/10 stats, since most units don't reach 20/20 until final chapters, especially on HM. Raven: 21 + 10 = 31 MT Guy: 5 + 15 = 20 MT Wow. And let's not forget Raven will actually be able to act as a ranged fighter with Hand Axes. Which are also cheap! What does Guy have? RuneSword? Not if you want to spend 3000 per hit! Light Sword? 1250 per use, which isn't TOO horrible-- only 25 uses per weapon though, and it HALVES STR-- which I'm sure is a fantastic advantage for Guy. Of course, you can give Guy Steel Sword for a total of 25 MT, which still loses. That's only after promotion though. |
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| Inui | Nov 26 2006, 03:22 PM Post #87 |
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Power of Flower
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Guy will be around level 13 or 14 when Raven is level 10, though. Guy exists for the earlygame whereas Raven does not until the end of it. For those crucial chapters where things are difficult, like 13x, Guy is very valuable. Raven and Guy are both pretty amazing, but I still find Guy very slightly more useful even though I hate him. Probably because I put more weight on the earlygame than the other portions. Prepromotion: Guy clearly wins the earlygame and is better before promotion due to a level advantage and superior stats everywhere but STR. Postpromotion: Raven wins due to having axes and very good offensive stats. I guess it's preference. :x |
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| Psiwri | Nov 26 2006, 03:24 PM Post #88 |
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Too Many Words
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As with Kieran vs. Ike, Psio says, "use both".
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| Inui | Nov 26 2006, 03:26 PM Post #89 |
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Power of Flower
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I agree with that. I don't like using Raven in ranked play, though. |
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| Eaichu | Nov 26 2006, 03:34 PM Post #90 |
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Leadership
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Here we go again.
No. Even with the VERY gracious 3-4 level advantage that you want to tack onto Guy, let's compare them at 13/0, and 10/0. Raven 10/0 29.3 HP 10.8 STR 13.0 SKL 15.3 SPD 6.3 DEF 1.8 RES 3.8 LUK 8 CON Guy 13/0 28.5 HP 9.0 STR 16 SKL 18 SPD 6.5 DEF 2.5 RES 9.5 LUK 5 CON(...) Loses HP and STR. DEF is a 0.2 difference, in other words, NO difference. Also not a win. That's three stats you were wrong about. Unless you want to stretch it a level further-- though you are aware you gain less EXP per level in HM? Now let's continue leveling them up. With the EXP restrictions getting heavier, it becomes easier for Raven to level while Guy is not. Now let's compare 17/0 Raven to 19/0 Guy. HP: 36.9 STR: 15.7 SKL: 16.6 SPD: 18.9 DEF: 8.5 RES: 3.1 LUK: 6.9 CON: 8 HP: 33.8 STR: 11.1 SKL: 18.9 SPD: 19.9 DEF: 7.5 RES: 4.3 LUK: 12.7 CON: 5 This is without HHM bonus attached. Now, assuming we're playing on HHM... Raven is still grossly outdamaging Guy. Both can double attack practically any enemy, for they will BOTH have maxed SPD, and Raven will be close to maxing SKL on HHM while Guy will have it maxed. Raven outdoes him in DEF, HP and STR, and they will be matched in SPD. Once again, Guy will not be able to fully manipulate his great SPD with steel weapons, whereas Raven can. Making him a poor damager, and Raven just as evasive, though a bit more durable thanks to higher HP & DEF. So how does he lose in every stat except STR, again? Are you just comparing Level 5 Raven to Level 9 Guy, or something? That's *right* when you get them. I'll agree that Guy is more useful in the chapters where Raven obviously cannot be present, because he's not there. But after being used for one or two chapters, the difference between them starts to widen, and it will only continue becoming that way. |
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2:02 PM Jul 11