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[Casual] CATS vs. Simon
Topic Started: Nov 28 2006, 08:29 PM (698 Views)
Merk
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ザワザワ

Lute vs. Moulder. You up for it? :sentenal:

I got nothing else to do while waiting for my next match, anyway.

I don't care who starts/finishes.
~AKA SkyFireZero.
a r p s
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

Sure. I can't get a post up tonight, but I'd be glad to debate with ya. ;)

EDIT2: Never mind, you answered it already. >_>
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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Merk
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ザワザワ

Yeah, I probably can't either, but at least there's no time limit pressure to worry about. >_>;
~AKA SkyFireZero.
a r p s
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Merk
Member Avatar
ザワザワ

Lute is the best offensive spellcaster in Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones due to her mix of adequate SKL, consistently high SPD, and monstrous MGC. She also has great dodge and RES, making her acceptably durable. She also has access to the most balanced and efficient magic type prepromotion and access to WTA-frequent Light and healing Staves postpromotion. She has excellent support utility, and joins very early.

However, Lute's main selling point is her power in the late-game. Let's see how Lute and Moulder perform in Chapter 19, widely accepted to be the most challenging chapter in the late-game due to the high diversity and strength of the enemy units.

Assuming use of a small elite team, the party average would be around 20/10. Both Lute and Moulder can draw from a pool of virtually limitless EXP, namely healing, but Moulder has some advantages in this area (use of advanced staves like Warp, healing prepromotion), so I'll peg Lute at 20/12 and Moulder at 20/15. Even if these aren't perfectly accurate, it won't vary that much, and one or two levels probably won't make a significant difference in performance.

Modal stats used. Bolded entries mark a win.

Moulder: 20/15 Sage w/Elfire - A Vanessa - B Gilliam
 

HP: 46
Mt: 32
AS: 22
Hit: 132%
Evade: 76%
Critical: 16%
Critical Evasion: 32%
Defense: 18
Resistance: 21

Effective Mt (Factors Crt) (Per Use | Total): 42.24 | 1267.2
Usage: 30
Cost: 1200 G

Lute: 20/12 Sage w/Fire - A Vanessa - B Ross
 

HP: 34
Mt: 37
AS: 21
Hit: 138%
Evade: 89%
Critical: 8%
Critical Evasion: 47%
Defense: 14
Resistance: 24

Effective Mt (Factors Crt) (Per Use | Total): 42.92 | 1716.8
Usage: 40
Cost: 560G


Offensively: 5 Mt > 1 AS, especially when Lute's doubling everything except perhaps a couple of enemy Swordmasters.
Defensively: It's 12 HP and 4 DEF versus 13% Evasion and 3 RES. I might go ahead and call this a win for Moldy, but it's closer than it appears. First of all, Lute is superior to MKs, Druids, and Riev (3 RES outpaces 12 HP in 4 attacks, and the 13% Evasion helps as well), and secondly, the 13% evasion helps against enemy Physical units.

Let's peer into some of the more overlooked parameters:

Effective Mt: Lute wins, even before factoring in tome usage, and then once that gets factored in, rapes.
Usage: Fire has more usage than Elfire.
Cost: Fire has less than half of the cost of Elfire.

Of course, this brings up why Moldy is using Elfire in the first place. Indeed. With the more cost-effective Fire, Moldy loses his ability to 2HK Druids, Generals, (some) Great Knights, (some) Heroes, (most) Warriors, Mage Knights, and Paladins. Definitive disadvantage.

Lute also gains the advantage of versatility. Moulder cannot step up to a higher level tome as he simply will not have the rank. However, Lute can obviously step up from Fire, to Thunder (3 Mt for 1 AS), Elfire (5 Mt for 5 AS), Alacalibur (3 MT for 0 AS), and Fimbulvetr (8 MT for 7 AS). Whether these trades advantage her or disadvantage her is really not the point; the point is that she can choose to gain MT in exchange for AS where as Moulder already has maxed his potential MT and will not gain AS by dropping down to a lower-level tome. And, actually, it does help her: Fimbulvetr Lute 1HKs Rangers and Swordmasters, two enemies that she previously could not double reliably.

[Edit: Forgot to mention that I referenced CATS's guide when writing the above two paragraphs.]

There is one advantage Moulder does have in this chapter: Healing. Or does he? When Lute promotes, she gains Staves D Rank (either promotion). With consistent use, she should have a C Rank by the time Chapter 19 rolls around. That gives her enough to use Restore, the most useful healing staff as it heals bad status conditions. Mold can use some more advanced staves like Physic/Fortify (Despite that you should be using Heal/Mend for cost-efficiency, and Lute outperforms him there with 9 full points higher in MGC, 10 if supports figure in to healing (I dunno about that, lol)) and Sleep/Berserk (yet, killing enemies outright >>> inflicting them with some gay status effect).

So I would definitely say that in this chapter, which is the heart of the late-game, Lute wins...at 3 levels down and with a worse weapon. I believe this to be evidence enough that Lute > Mold in the late-game.

I'm going to stop now. I'll leave it to you to try to prove that Mold > Lute in the early and mid-games.

I've been looking forward to this. Let's have a good debate, Mario. :sentenal:
~AKA SkyFireZero.
a r p s
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C475_1337
Member Avatar
One serious d00d

Lute = w1nn4r?
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Merk
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ザワザワ

Nobody's waiting on this, so I don't mind if Simon takes a long time.

Though, that scares me, it probably means he's sitting in his room masturbating to moulder hentai writing up some scary counterpost longer than his entire debate with Luke. :x
~AKA SkyFireZero.
a r p s
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C475_1337
Member Avatar
One serious d00d

lol
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

O_O Moulder hentai? Where?! Huh?

Anywho, I'm getting steadily sicker and sicker and exams are coming up. Is there a chance I can postpone until Christmas holidays? I hate to bump things back, and if you want, consider it a rematch and that you won this round, but I'd like to debate when I can consistently see straight. >_>
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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Kovu
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Zidane was always entitled to 12 MOV!

Just have Merk save his first post and you can debate when you have time.

~ Kovu
Posted Image
Famous Quotes
Kovu's Awards
Formerly known as: Zidane, Miroku, Kovutachi, Artemis, Phantom Judge.
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Merk
Member Avatar
ザワザワ

Simon
Dec 6 2006, 08:04 PM
O_O Moulder hentai? Where?! Huh?

Anywho, I'm getting steadily sicker and sicker and exams are coming up. Is there a chance I can postpone until Christmas holidays? I hate to bump things back, and if you want, consider it a rematch and that you won this round, but I'd like to debate when I can consistently see straight. >_>

Yeah, this thread'll still be around, I don't mind postponing this. Feel better.
~AKA SkyFireZero.
a r p s
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Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

I'm feelin' better. I'll work on this and the FE6 debates.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

BUMP, as tomorrow I'll get the much-belated counter up or nearly have it up.

Either way, don't let your brain fry over the Christmas holidays or you'll be in for a nasty surprise. B|

EDIT: UH OH, HERE I GO

Quote:
 
Lute is the best offensive spellcaster in Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones due to her mix of adequate SKL, consistently high SPD, and monstrous MGC. She also has great dodge and RES, making her acceptably durable. She also has access to the most balanced and efficient magic type prepromotion and access to WTA-frequent Light and healing Staves postpromotion. She has excellent support utility, and joins very early.

However, Lute's main selling point is her power in the late-game. Let's see how Lute and Moulder perform in Chapter 19, widely accepted to be the most challenging chapter in the late-game due to the high diversity and strength of the enemy units.

Assuming use of a small elite team, the party average would be around 20/10. Both Lute and Moulder can draw from a pool of virtually limitless EXP, namely healing, but Moulder has some advantages in this area (use of advanced staves like Warp, healing prepromotion), so I'll peg Lute at 20/12 and Moulder at 20/15. Even if these aren't perfectly accurate, it won't vary that much, and one or two levels probably won't make a significant difference in performance.

Modal stats used. Bolded entries mark a win.

Moulder: 20/15 Sage w/Elfire - A Vanessa - B Gilliam
 

HP: 46
Mt: 32
AS: 22
Hit: 132%
Evade: 76%
Critical: 16%
Critical Evasion: 32%
Defense: 18
Resistance: 21

Effective Mt (Factors Crt) (Per Use | Total): 42.24 | 1267.2
Usage: 30
Cost: 1200 G

Lute: 20/12 Sage w/Fire - A Vanessa - B Ross
 

HP: 34
Mt: 37
AS: 21
Hit: 138%
Evade: 89%
Critical: 8%
Critical Evasion: 47%
Defense: 14
Resistance: 24

Effective Mt (Factors Crt) (Per Use | Total): 42.92 | 1716.8
Usage: 40
Cost: 560G


Offensively: 5 Mt > 1 AS, especially when Lute's doubling everything except perhaps a couple of enemy Swordmasters.
Defensively: It's 12 HP and 4 DEF versus 13% Evasion and 3 RES. I might go ahead and call this a win for Moldy, but it's closer than it appears. First of all, Lute is superior to MKs, Druids, and Riev (3 RES outpaces 12 HP in 4 attacks, and the 13% Evasion helps as well), and secondly, the 13% evasion helps against enemy Physical units.

Let's peer into some of the more overlooked parameters:

Effective Mt: Lute wins, even before factoring in tome usage, and then once that gets factored in, rapes.
Usage: Fire has more usage than Elfire.
Cost: Fire has less than half of the cost of Elfire.

Of course, this brings up why Moldy is using Elfire in the first place. Indeed. With the more cost-effective Fire, Moldy loses his ability to 2HK Druids, Generals, (some) Great Knights, (some) Heroes, (most) Warriors, Mage Knights, and Paladins. Definitive disadvantage.

Lute also gains the advantage of versatility. Moulder cannot step up to a higher level tome as he simply will not have the rank. However, Lute can obviously step up from Fire, to Thunder (3 Mt for 1 AS), Elfire (5 Mt for 5 AS), Alacalibur (3 MT for 0 AS), and Fimbulvetr (8 MT for 7 AS). Whether these trades advantage her or disadvantage her is really not the point; the point is that she can choose to gain MT in exchange for AS where as Moulder already has maxed his potential MT and will not gain AS by dropping down to a lower-level tome. And, actually, it does help her: Fimbulvetr Lute 1HKs Rangers and Swordmasters, two enemies that she previously could not double reliably.

[Edit: Forgot to mention that I referenced CATS's guide when writing the above two paragraphs.]

There is one advantage Moulder does have in this chapter: Healing. Or does he? When Lute promotes, she gains Staves D Rank (either promotion). With consistent use, she should have a C Rank by the time Chapter 19 rolls around. That gives her enough to use Restore, the most useful healing staff as it heals bad status conditions. Mold can use some more advanced staves like Physic/Fortify (Despite that you should be using Heal/Mend for cost-efficiency, and Lute outperforms him there with 9 full points higher in MGC, 10 if supports figure in to healing (I dunno about that, lol)) and Sleep/Berserk (yet, killing enemies outright >>> inflicting them with some gay status effect).

So I would definitely say that in this chapter, which is the heart of the late-game, Lute wins...at 3 levels down and with a worse weapon. I believe this to be evidence enough that Lute > Mold in the late-game.

Conceded. Lute is better than Moulder in the lategame. I’ll quote a few things I disagree with, but on the whole, I’m inclined to agree.

Quote:
 
Modal stats used.

I’m fairly certain average stats were to be the standard for these debates. This doesn’t really affect stats except for docking 1 Mag from Lute, but standards are standards.

Quote:
 
Of course, this brings up why Moldy is using Elfire in the first place. Indeed. With the more cost-effective Fire, Moldy loses his ability to 2HK Druids, Generals, (some) Great Knights, (some) Heroes, (most) Warriors, Mage Knights, and Paladins. Definitive disadvantage.

Money is of no issue in this game; there’s no Rankings, so there’s no reason not to use Elfire, especially since the Silver Card knocks Elfire to a mere 600G per tome (20G per use). Moreover, by Chapter 19 you should be able to afford Elfire. Lute does have cost-efficiency on her side, but it’s of little consequence at this point.

Quote:
 
Lute also gains the advantage of versatility. Moulder cannot step up to a higher level tome as he simply will not have the rank.

[Assumed Chapter 12 promotion; that’s where I normally promote him at, in any case.]

Moulder using Elfire has plenty of time to gain Anima weapon levels. He starts with C Anima, allowing him to use Elfire right from the getgo, and he’ll be wounding bosses so unpromoted enemies can kill. You’ll definitely want to get him to at least B Anima so you have a spellcaster with usable Attack Speed while equipping Bolting. A Anima gives you the sole practical user of Fimbulvetr, and it’s definitely not difficult to get, since you have seven chapters where he’s either an active combatant or a supporting attacker against bosses.

Quote:
 
However, Lute can obviously step up from Fire, to Thunder (3 Mt for 1 AS), Elfire (5 Mt for 5 AS), Alacalibur (3 MT for 0 AS), and Fimbulvetr (8 MT for 7 AS). Whether these trades advantage her or disadvantage her is really not the point; the point is that she can choose to gain MT in exchange for AS where as Moulder already has maxed his potential MT and will not gain AS by dropping down to a lower-level tome. And, actually, it does help her: Fimbulvetr Lute 1HKs Rangers and Swordmasters, two enemies that she previously could not double reliably.

Firstly, Alacalibur does not exist in this game legitimately. You weren’t pushing Dark Magic for Lute, so I’ll assume you’re not glitching and thus Alacalibur is not a viable option. Secondly, Moulder should have access to all of those tomes as well, and he uses them more effectively because he can double.

Secondly, whatever happened to your cost-efficiency argument? Fimbulvetr is 300G a use, Elfire is 40G. Moulder doubles all but one Swordmaster with Elfire and kills all of them on a double-attack. Granted, he can’t kill one Swordmaster…but Lute misses the OHKO on that same Swordmaster and more. Two hits from Elfire are definitely more cost-efficient with the same result.

Let’s look at it like this: Moulder misses the one-round kill on one Swordmaster, one Druid, and three Mage Knights. (And, of course, Riev, but you name me one spellcaster that can one-round him, cuz I’ve been lookin for one.) Lute, on the other hand, fails to one-round eight Swordmasters and two Rangers. What’s this? Despite being the offensive demon she’s apparently meant to be, the ratio of missed kills for her to Moulder is 2:1? Moulder fails to kill half the enemies she does; kinda sad when a priest is killin more people than you in war, ain’t it?

Thirdly, the only advantage she stands to gain is through Fimbulvetr, so there’s no point in listing all those other tomes that can’t help her.

Oopsies, I forgot I was conceding. Nah, I think I’ll pass on that.

Quote:
 
I'm going to stop now. I'll leave it to you to try to prove that Mold > Lute in the early and mid-games.

Oh, don’t you worry, that won’t be hard.

Early and midgame: Moulder’s the best healer, Lute loses to attackers like Franz, Joshua, Eirika, Colm, Vanessa, and eventually Tana (Tana replaces Joshua there). Moulder’s job is more valuable than Lute’s. Moulder wins.

Quote:
 
I've been looking forward to this. Let's have a good debate, Mario. :sentenal:

Et tu, Merkio.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

Bleh, it's a double post, but Merkius won't notice if I don't bump it, so there.

BUMP'D FOR GREAT JUSTICE.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Merk
Member Avatar
ザワザワ

Thanks for bumpage.
~AKA SkyFireZero.
a r p s
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

No problem.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
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