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| [Casual] CATS vs. Simon | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 28 2006, 08:29 PM (697 Views) | |
| -HJ- | Jan 20 2007, 08:01 PM Post #31 |
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I've failed to come up with something witty, so I hope you will enjoy this filler text instead.
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| C475_1337 | Jan 22 2007, 12:02 AM Post #32 |
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One serious d00d
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Kk. We'll go from here:
No, it definitely matters. The one time where money is an issue is the secret shop in chapter 14, where you want to get as many Physics/Barriers/etc. as you can, and don’t yet have the Silver Card. If you spend your whole fortune buying these things, then money’s going to be an issue when buying common weapons for a bit afterwards. If you don’t go all-out and save some money, then you’ll have to save more if you plan on Moulder spamming Elfires later on.
13 for me.
……non sequitor?
Moulder’s got no shot at the big S, though. No Excalibur for him ;_;
Fimbul, Excal and Bolting all come free, and there’s no Funds rating in this game.
20/12-20/13 Sage Moulder 43.9 Hp 16.4 Mag 20.2 Skl 20.4 Spd 6.7 Luck 12.1 Def 15.1 Res 11 Con A Vanessa B Colm 20/11 MK Lute 33.1 Hp 24.6 Mag* 15.7 Skl 20.0 Spd 21.0 Luck 9.3 Def 18.6 Res 6 Con A Artur B Vanessa Their Spd is the same, and Lute + Thunder has 4 more Atk than Moulder + Elfire. Unless I’m missing something, there’s no offensive advantage for Moulder here. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Phoenix Wright | Jan 22 2007, 06:19 PM Post #33 |
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that moron that forgot this is s11
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NO THERE :psio: ((BTW, debate post in FE7 Teams plzkthx))
Hmm...one Physic per spellcaster should do it, I'd predict having ~30000G going into the chapter, and the 10000G from one of the treasure chests in the chapter nearly covers three Physics. And why do you need Barrier if we agree Moulder is promoted by at least Chapter 13, if not earlier?
12.5 then, as in mid-Chapter 12.
XD, I made a stupid. Change "unpromoted enemies" to "unpromoted units" there; for examples, see Aias and Cyclops. Moulder doubling them does quite a bit of damage without actually landing the killing shot; that allows units not yet promoted to nab the kill.
He's got a shot at it, but granted, there's little advantage in him getting it; I'd rather Fimbulvetr Moulder with a nice 4-5 level advantage over Excalibur Moulder that wasted his entire time - and the team's EXP - boosting his Anima to S and ignoring the Warp + Hammerne combo.
You get two free Elfires in the game as well: one from Saleh when he joins and one from a generic enemy drop. Considering Moulder shouldn't be fighting too much until the others promote, Moulder shouldn't go through those too quickly.
That's because the comment was made under different conditions from those, silly! And what happened to Moulder's level advantage? Warp is 17*42>200 EXP. |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| C475_1337 | Jan 22 2007, 07:24 PM Post #34 |
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One serious d00d
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Moulder is not the only staff user, and Barrier is still free Exp. One Physic per staff user is suboptimal. You definitely want more than that if you can afford it. Chapter 14 is also your first chance to buy Killer Weapons; the next won’t come til 17. And depending on route and team makeup, you may need to buy a promo item. More money is certainly appreciated.
……okay? Lute is promoting at the same time, so she can do the same thing.
Moulder’s not promoting early, he’s just not promoting late. Two Elfires ain’t enough for him to spam them for the remaining 9-10 chapters, and he does want to spam, if only for the double WEXP.
Except that Moulder doesn’t get all of that Exp instantly, and using two healers is a valid plan in this game. When Moulder gets it all to himself he’s like 20/15 in Chapter 19; when two healers are used he’s like 20/10. Average 12-13. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Phoenix Wright | Jan 22 2007, 08:56 PM Post #35 |
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that moron that forgot this is s11
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((Is this limited to 3 posts each?))
Moulder's the only staff user with C+ Staves, though, and not only is he worse off if you spend his Elfire money on Barrier as an individual (2-3 levels is not getting him 5 Mag), you're wasting more money on Staves to do that. I fail to see a win here. (C+ is C or higher, BTW, not the letter grade. >_>) If you use two healers - which, last I checked, *you* don't, since you put Natasha an entire tier below Moulder on the basis of his existence alone after the WarpHammerne technique was factored in - and they promote at the same time as the rest of your units - which, checking your HM Enemy Stats topic, shouldn't be happening since your average unit promotion time was Chapter 15, not Chapter 13 - Moulder still neither needs nor wants the Exp; he can take Warp and Natasha can have Fortify if powerlevelling hurts so much.
Last I checked Moulder and Natasha are the only ones with B Staves at this point that are worth using (haha L'Arachel).
Valid point, but that's less money the other way around as well - less money for Lute to use on Staves to bring her Stafff level up to Physic rank.
Whee for highly situational circumstances. The only time route matters is with one Knight Crest, and considering you get three anyway IIRC and there's no point to using Franz, Gilliam, Kyle and Forde all on the same team (particularly when Seth can adequately replace either of the latter two and it's highly debatable as to the superior unit), route ain't much of an issue. Team makeup? The only thing I can foresee that you'd need to worry about are: Hero Crests if you're using three of Gerik, Fighter Ross, Garcia, Joshua, and Marisa, and especially considering Gerik's the only really spectacular unit of them (and Gerik's only really outstanding on one route - is that what you meant earlier?) with Ross or Garcia for Garm's sake and little else, this shouldn't be a problem; Elysian Whips is you're using all three unpromoted fliers, which is extremely excess since two of them outclass the third pretty easily; Knight Crests, already addressed; Guiding Rings, if you're using Lute, Artur, Natasha, *and* Moulder, and Artur's fairly mediocre and multiple healers aren't truly necessary enough to warrant the trouble of raising two at once; Ocean Seals, if you're using Pirate Ross and Colm, and not only is Ross mediocre, but you and I agree that Pirate < Fighter in the long run because of Fighter -> Hero. Yeah, not seeing too much of an issue unless you're doing a specialized run, which shouldn't be a factor since Lute and Moulder will almost always be in play together in these runs (unless you're doing attackers only, but that's financial suicide - have fun raking up enough cash for Vulneraries and Elixirs until Chapter 13-15!).
Would you honestly tell me that, say, you'd rather buy Barriers that are a detriment to Moulder in the long run without mass purchasing? You'd have to get enough for 6 extra Mag on Moulder, and with a 40% growth that's 6/.4 = 15 levels; Barrier gives 8*15 Exp per staff by the time they're purchaseable for Moulder, which wields 1.2/15 levels a staff; you need eight Barriers for a slightly better performance in the endgame, and since Barriers are, what, 2250 a pop? You're paying 2250*8=18000G to allow him to use, at best (assuming Fire and disregarding the fact that his Atk is lower until he finally gets the fifteenth levelup and the fact that Elfire Moulder at 20/6 can't be topped by Fire Moulder, period), a weapon that saves you 320G per tome? Unless you're planning on replacing Fire 57 times, you're not saving in the long run. Long story short: Elfire Moulder + no Barrier > Fire Moulder + Barrier; just use that cash for his Barriers on Elfire instead, since the former (Elfire) is more cost-efficient than the latter (Barrier+Fire) and the latter can't beat the former once said former hits 20/6 (Moulder never gets a full 5 Mag form 20/6-20/20).
Not according to your own levels supplied in the HM Enemy Stats topic.
Oh, really? That makes this portion of the argument even easier; if Moulder promotes at Chapter 13 and gets Elfire, he only needs to use those two Elfires for two chapters (Ch15 gets him Elfire for a mere 600G a pop, the +5 Atk outweighs the cost). Regardless of how late/early he promotes relative to the party, he promotes at Chapter 13 and gets two Elfires for two chapters.
Oh, really? Two healer a valid plan? Are the benefits really outweighing the costs here? You have...two healers, which means you get more healing done. HOWEVER, unless you're telling me these two are capable of healing twice as many injuries as before (the amount they need to not be a detriment to each other) *and* promoting on time, I can't see how having two underlevelled healers that need to leech off each other's method for getting back up to par level and above par level is more helpful than it is harmful.
What happened to all of those Physics we're supposedly buying because one Physic is suboptimal? Between being the sole users of those and using Warp + Hammerne + the Barriers you insist on getting + Rescue, they should still be at a higher level than the comparison you gave. Thusly, either the first comparison I made stands and Moulder wins because of reasons previously stated, or Moulder has Fire, but is practcally at 20/20 because he has all of those extra staves we're using his weapon money on to boost his level to obscene numbers. Oh, and none of this endgame talk changes Moulder's superiority to Lute in the earlygame and most of the midgame (depending on definition of midgame); even with Natasha there and making the team inefficient with two healers are below-average levels because they're leeching each others' Exp, Supply and Demand laws are in Moulder's favour. In fact, in one of your FE6 debates, you put this better than I could, so now I'll do you the favour of reposting your words to fit this context: Now, for the rest of all this earlygame stuff, let’s use some real logic. You’ve all heard this before, but I have to say it again. Moulder is a Healer, Lute is an Attacker. Both of these are worthwhile actions, and their worth can not be compared directly, in the sense that actual stats can be (since stats have concrete values assigned to them). How, then, do we judge which is moar valuable? The same reason performers are always in god tier. The classic Law of Supply & Demand; you have dozens of attackers but only three healers. Moulder is clearly the best of the three healing units, while Lute is by no means clearly the best of the many attacking units. Moulder is the very best in the game at a valuable role; Lute puts up a good showing, but sorry, he is not at the top of his game. The best part is, it's all true: Moulder is in fact the best healer and Lute is indeed not the best attacker in the earlygame. Shall I quote you some more to show why Lute != best Attacker? Heck, let's do it. Eh, there's an entire topic: http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fire_Emblem_Fu...?showtopic=8432 Remember this? It's you and Franz against Merk and Lute. Normally I'd go through and C/P relevant sections, but you guys liked ot focus on earlygame performance, so too much of the topic is relevant for mere C/Ping of parts. As for healers: http://z11.invisionfree.com/Fire_Emblem_Fu...?showtopic=7964 Remember this? The time where Inui pooped himself and made his supposed "best closer yet"? ((Couldn't resist the opportunity.)) In the first post of mine, there's a lengthy comparson of Moulder > Natasha in the lategame. That link is posted for reference, cuz there's only one part that's relevant: THIS! Firstly, before promotion, there’s hardly a noticeable difference in the two; they both heal, so they should both stay the hell away from any sort of combat. The only significant advantage is in Moulder’s favor: level. Moulder can easily hit 5/0 by the time Natasha joins, and if he does, he’ll have B Staves when she has D. Definite advantage for him. Pretty easy stuff; Moulder is best Healer, Lute is not best Attacker, Moulder is best in more valuable job, Lute is not best at less valuable job, Moulder > Lute until they perform the same function. If we're only allowed three posts each, this would be the closer. Good game, though it seems like it was a bit short... |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| C475_1337 | Jan 22 2007, 11:16 PM Post #36 |
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One serious d00d
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lol, no, ofcourse not. Why would it be?
y helo thar Artur, Natasha and Saleh. Lute has D, she’ll get C well before the game’s over.
It’s not about which one of Barrier or Elfire is worth the money more. It’s about being able to afford more good stuffs for the team in general(of which Barrier is only one example) if you aren’t buying Elfires for Moulder. The money that Moulder’s using up can be improving other units instead. The Barrier Staff has uses besides just free Exp, as well; goes a long way towards tanking in Chapter 19 with those Mage Knights around.
What? No I don’t. If Natasha couldn’t do the same thing, then I would, sure. But, she can. And I have indeed used Moulder and Natasha together before. I don’t do it often, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea; I don’t often use Pent in FE7, either.
When using 12 units.
No. Fortify doesn’t come until sometime in Chapter 19, it gives Exp slower than Warp, and you must split the Hammerne uses between Natasha and Moulder anyway.
That doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t appreciate having multiple Physics available(surely they’ll be healing more than 15 times over the course of 7-8 chapters) or that other staff users will never reach a B Rank in Staves.
Hm? I don’t follow you.
These circumstances do indeed occur, therefore they must be considered.
You get 3 Hero Crests, but one doesn’t come til Chapter 16, after the time when pplz reach 20/0 under almost any reasonable circumstances. 3 of Ross, Garcia, Gerik, Joshua and Marisa aren’t often used at the same time, but it does indeed happen. Like a Gerik/Marisa/Joshua support triangle. Knight Crests on A Route are the same thing, and you could easily be using 3 or more of Franz, Forde, Kyle, Gilliam and Amelia since they’re all decent units atleast(Franz is godly and Amelia/Gilliam are high tier as well), and especially considering that they have lots of supports with each other. And no, Seth doesn’t replace any of those. Using all 3 fliers is like the Hero Crests. It’s not often done, but it’s something that does indeed happen. Vanessa is god tier, and Tana/Cormag are themselves respectable(well, Eir Route Cormag fades, but then, there’s one less Knight Crest on Eir Route). I agree that Guiding Rings will not be an issue. Just because I prefer Fighter -> Hero Ross doesn’t mean there isn’t a case for Pirate -> Warrior. Fighter -> Hero has 1 more Spd, but only at 2nd tier, while Pirate -> Warrior has +1 Spd at 1st tier and +2 Con at 2nd tier. Pirate is winning the AS battle, which is the biggest issue when talking about Ross. So yes, you very well might find yourself having to buy a promo item. I’ve done it plenty of times.
Barriers a detriment to Moulder? wtf? There’s no benefit to not having them, how are they hurting?
What does this have to do with anything? Mag doesn’t matter when using Barrier.
It’s not about which one of Barrier or Elfire is worth the money more. It’s about being able to afford more good stuffs for the team in general(of which Barrier is only one example) if you aren’t buying Elfires for Moulder. The money that Moulder’s using up can be improving other units instead.
When using 12 units. If we go only by the team I used on that one playthrough, Marisa > Tana, since I used Marisa on that run but not Tana.
What exactly is your point?
Second, using Moulder and Natasha together, they promote like 2 chapters late, but then can spam Warp and such, and quickly catch up with, and then surpass everyone else. Instead of one unit being 4-5 levels ahead, you get two who are 2-3 levels ahead. They’re weaker for the couple chapters before they promote when they would have already promoted otherwise, but this is arguably counteracted by having two such units as Moulder and Natasha available after promotion(double Physic users instantly, instead of waiting for someone else to hit B Staves, FTW), and even if said counterargument did not exist, the situation is not nearly suboptimal enough that it can be effectively ignored. Quite the opposite.
We’re using them? I dunno what you’re getting at.
Who is they? Moulder, Lute, or both?
Two healers is not a problem until you get to the point that they’re behind schedule for promotion. Before then, being a few levels behind where they would be otherwise doesn’t matter much, since they’re never attacking and rarely getting attacked.
@ three posts. This is casual discussion, we can do what we want here.Anyway. This is not the FE6 debaet tournament, and things stand differently here. If Moulder is pulled off the team, you use Natasha instead. That’s a step down, but not a big one. Lute’s not the best attacking unit, but she’s in god tier, so if you’re not using her, it’s pretty much guaranteed that whoever replaces her is a worse unit. The few units who are better than her would be on the team already. So taking Lute off the team is also a step down, but also not a big one. This doesn’t necessarily apply in extreme cases like a 5-man team……but if Lute is used in a 5-man team, she will be promoting 2-3 chapters ahead of Moulder at the very least, and beat him down easily because of it. As for the time when both are on the team and unpromoted? You can argue semantics, but objectively, no one can prove that healing in and of itself is more useful than attacking, or vice versa, like you would be able to prove that attacking > lockpicking, or dancing > attacking. If anything the person who says attacking > healing has the stronger case, as an attacker can do something on both the player phase and the enemy phase, while a healer is not doing anything on the enemy phase. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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@ three posts. This is casual discussion, we can do what we want here.
2:00 PM Jul 11