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| Teh Axe Men | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 16 2006, 11:33 AM (1,611 Views) | |
| Phoenix Wright | Dec 16 2006, 08:42 PM Post #46 |
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that moron that forgot this is s11
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LOL, Wallace |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| Eaichu | Dec 16 2006, 08:44 PM Post #47 |
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Leadership
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I love Wallace as a character... Too bad Oswin is so much more significant in stats, joining time and whatnot, there's no reason to pick him up.
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| Yzarc | Dec 16 2006, 08:45 PM Post #48 |
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Coxian
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Agreed. |
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| Phoenix Wright | Dec 16 2006, 08:47 PM Post #49 |
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that moron that forgot this is s11
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Well, of course Wallace is good personality wise. He marries VAIDA. That's manly. Plus, Renault trained him, so more points for him. |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| Inui | Dec 16 2006, 11:02 PM Post #50 |
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Power of Flower
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Are you kidding me?
Statistically, Hawkeye BARELY wins because of his DEF/HP. Marcus wins SPD by 1, and crushes him tremendously in hit in all aspects; more SKL coupled with having three weapons. Considering Marcus will have the weapon triangle advantage very often, his avoid is often superior and only less when fighting archers/mages. I'd say Hawkeye wins the lategame in raw stats, yeah, because of his durability wins. His incredibly poor SPD hurts him badly, as many enemies will be able to double him throughout the game, while Marcus won't suffer from the same weakness due to averaging a point more in SPD and having a level advantage most of the game. However, Marcus still wins the lategame overall. How so? Supports. Marcus's answer to Hawkeye's small statistical wins is his larger, and better support chart. Hawkeye: Pent, Louise, Ninian Marcus: Eliwood, Lowen, Harken, Isadora, Merlinus Marcus will probably be almost fully supported by the time you even get Hawkeye, and Marcus will be around level 6-7, giving him a massive win for the midgame. In the endgame, Hawkeye's durability helps him even it out, but Marcus has better supports. Pent and Louise are impossible for Hawkeye to A support, and Ninian is usually supported with Eliwood. Marcus's other answer to Hawkeye's better stats is his class. Marcus has 2 more movement, mounted advantages, and 2 more weapons at his disposal. Hawkeye's answers to this are peak/sea walking and a 15% critical bonus, both of which are nothing compared to 2 weapon types and 2 movement. Marcus > Hawkeye in all portions of the game. Geitz > other axemen in hard mode. Averages: Total Stats; 195.4 HP: 58.4 STR: 27.5 SKL: 18.1 SPD: 20.8 LUK: 16.8 DEF: 15.4 RES: 7.4 CON: 13 AID: 12 MOV: 6 Geitz wins hard mode, hands down. He's much faster than any of the others except Dart, but he doesn't cost the money and EXP that Dart does to be amazing. |
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| C475_1337 | Dec 17 2006, 01:48 AM Post #51 |
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One serious d00d
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Barely wins? My turn to ask if you’re kidding. Let’s see what we’re really looking at here, in Stats That Matter: Hp: Hawkeye by 14.5(!!!) Str: Hawkeye by 3.7 Spd: Marcus by 0.7(Marcus’s only stat win here is by less than a point, yay Marcus!) Avo: Hawkeye by 4.3 Def: Hawkeye by 4.4 Con: Hawkeye by 5 LOL Marcus’s extra weapons don’t help him as much here as they would some people. Even when he has WTA over enemy axes while Hawkeye is neutral, it’s Hawkeye’s 14.5 Hp/3.4 Def vs Marcus’s 10.7 Avo. Still a win for Hawkeye if anything. Marcus does indeed win durability against enemy Swords, but at the same time, Hawkeye wins against enemy Lances, and Lances are much more common. And then Hawkeye also wins easily against all other things. In offense, Marcus’s 2 extra weapon types matter less than Hawkeye’s Crit and Con. Marcus Supports? Not if you’re only using him as a filler unit, which is the only use either one has late in the game. This is a total non-contest. I can see and agree with Marcus > Hawkeye for the game in general, but not the lategame.
His only even half-decent option is Canas, and I’d certainly question both Bartre and Canas making it onto the team together. Geitz has Dorcas, Dart and Fiora(the latter being a 241 turn support); all definitely worse than Bartre’s Canas Support, but also worth mentioning. And even assuming Bartre is supporting Canas, it gives him much better defense, but his offense is still worse. Granted, if that support is used, then in raw stats, it’s fair to say Bartre > Geitz regardless(outside HHM at least) since the defense gap becomes so much wider than the offense gap. However, the support will not often be used, and when it isn’t, I’d say Geitz wins(Geitz’s durability is not a problem at all, while Bartre’s Spd is definitely a problem). And then you add in no promo item required, B Rank Bows, and HHM Bonuses for Geitz. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Dec 17 2006, 01:52 AM Post #52 |
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Power of Flower
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Hmm. SKL stopped existing, apparently. You've still yet to prove that supported Marcus is worse off than Hawkeye, a unit that is actually likely to not have any supports at all. |
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| Eaichu | Dec 17 2006, 01:59 AM Post #53 |
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Leadership
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WJC - I already acknowledged HHM bonuses for Geitz, saying that they put him ahead of all other axe users in HHM. Defense gap becomes a bit smaller, and Geitz becomes fast enough to be alot more reliable than Bartre and STR is compensated for too; growth for Bartre is also slower due to higher XP gain rate, and it's even harder for him to perform in the beginning of the game. It's a hands-down no contest. Outside it though, I see it more of a closer tie because Bartre does still have his defense advantage, though whether it's more important than the offense gap is debatable. I feel it's not as much, as you have explained already, but... While Bartre's going to be slower overall(2 point difference), there's other things to be factored in(Such as the average level Bartre will be by the time Geitz joins, which will be higher on the normal routes.), supports(Which you addressed. There's possibility open for them happening.) I feel there's plenty of room for Bartre to equalize that gap. If Bartre is 20/8-20/6-7 by the time Geitz joins, he's already just as fast. You could say that Geitz is more worth it at a higher level, but you'd still have to put in effort to catch Geitz up... Is it worth it or not? Otherwise, Geitz is winner, yes. |
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| Yzarc | Dec 17 2006, 02:11 AM Post #54 |
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Coxian
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Marcus: 55.1 Base Accuracy Hawkeye: 47.3 Base Accuracy 7.8 difference assuming WTN. Granted that Marcus will likely have WTA more often than WTD. Still, that is, in no way, substantial enough to beat out all of Hawkeye's wins.
You're right. Accuracy wasn't included. Neither was crit. Who wins there? Marcus: 12.1 Hawkeye: 24.4 Hawkeye wins by 12.3. What about Resistance? Who wins there? Hawkeye by 1. Marcus' only advantage over Hawkeye is Accuracy and movement. If Marcus has WTA and Hawkeye has WTD, Hawkeye's still doing more damage. Marcus and Hawkeye will double attack the same amount except Hawkeye does substantially more damage per hit. Most of the time, Marcus will have a bit more accuracy, but sometimes he'll have a lot more. Regardless, though, overall damage output from Hawkeye will be greater. Hawkeye is also more durable in every sense. He's got more avoid, more HP, more Defense and more Resistance. |
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| Eaichu | Dec 17 2006, 02:14 AM Post #55 |
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Leadership
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Since Marcus has no real offense lead over Hawkeye besides WTA, which has already been explained not to be significant enough in this comparison, Hawkeye is clearly the winner. Marcus doesn't even average more than a point in SPD... 0.7 isn't 1 point, it hasn't made it there yet. With that, he has more chance of DA possibly putting offense ahead, but he doesn't have it, so Marcus is inferior offense-wise too. Boo. |
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| C475_1337 | Dec 17 2006, 02:21 AM Post #56 |
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One serious d00d
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What enemies will Hawkeye have trouble hitting? Like Yzarc pointed out, the Crit gap is wider anyway, and Crit > Hit.
No, Hawkeye won’t have Supports, but I don’t see why Marcus would have them either. I hope this isn’t the only point left you can find to defend Marcus with.
Whoa whoa whoa. Even on NM that’s ridiculous. Maybe if you use about 6 units for the entire game, but if that’s what you’re doing, then Bartre certainly isn’t one of those 6. On NM, I’d say it’s fair enough for Bartre to be 20/2 or 20/3 when Geitz joins. On HM, Bartre probably isn’t even promoted when Geitz comes in. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Eaichu | Dec 17 2006, 02:24 AM Post #57 |
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Leadership
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Marcus has good supports, but they're not worth it for those characters. I'd also have to say that's not a point in your favour, Seth. Indeed, WJC. I was just thinking about that after I posted it and you replied too quickly to me. I'll hand Geitz > Bartre to EHM due to the fact that even if you use Bartre, he isn't worth using over Geitz due to the level difference. Otherwise, I see it as a tie for reasons already explained. Geitz has the HMs(Even more of a stronger advantage on HHM!!!) and Bartre is equal to Geitz on the NMs. This, of course, makes Geitz overall better on an international FE7 scale. |
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| Inui | Dec 17 2006, 03:08 AM Post #58 |
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Power of Flower
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Lowen's best support option is Marcus, though. Rebecca is pretty worthless, and Eliwood should be supported with Hector, Lyn, and/or Ninian. Marcus and Lowen having an A support is likely, and with that, Marcus becomes superior to Hawkeye. I still don't see how Marcus can be anywhere near as bad as some people make him out to be if I won the debate tournament with him and his level 20/20 stats are still far greater than that of any enemy you ever fight with the exceptions of a few bosses... CATS, there is no other point to defend Marcus except supports. Is that wrong? Without supports, Moulder is utter and complete trash not worth touching, but with them he is great, and you find that to be a plausible arguement, so... |
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| Nick | Dec 17 2006, 06:18 AM Post #59 |
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Brit
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Leave my Hawkeye be, children, his pectorals > you. Hawkeye's starting stats are solid. Kicking off with AS11 with any weapon but the Devil Axe isn't bad, although his speed becomes sucky lategame. His durability is just win, though. 50HP? 14 defence? 10 resistance? Hawkeye has superb defensive stats on the whole, not to mention the fact that he can walk on peaks (exceedingly useful 2 chapters after getting him, when you find yourself on a mission with lots of wyverns and lots of mountains/peaks. You put Hawkeye on the peak, and guess what happens? Wyvern pie). His starting hit % is only 93 with his equipped Killer Axe, but that's not going to be much of an issue against the flocks of Wyverns that he scores WTA with. Starting critical % is 52. That's pretty awesome for a starting critical rate, true or false? 29 attack with the killer axe. 29 attack, 93 hit, 52 crit. Doesn't look too shabby. 14 defence, 10 resistance and 50HP are going to see him through a lot, and despite his starting dodge being not so great (35) it's at least existent. (Just for fun, imagine what it's like on a peak against a Wyvern Rider. That knocks it up to 90, am I correct? Lawl). His resistance growth is 35%, better than any non-lord/pegasus knight melee unit save for Marcus and Wallace. His awesome base combined with this makes him a great unit for taking out magical enemies. Ehe. Feel free to contradict what I've said, as no doubt some of you will desire to, but it's my personal opinion that Hawkeye's a very good and useful unit. Oh, and @Yagami and Simon: Hand off Hollie, she's my bish
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| OKs 4 lief | |
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| C475_1337 | Dec 17 2006, 12:43 PM Post #60 |
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One serious d00d
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In raw bonuses, Harken and Rebecca are better since they give more Atk and Crit. You can also argue that Eliwood is better. If Lowen’s played he’s at least guaranteed a B with Eliwood, and seeing how much you love HHM, odds are that Harken is in play. Lowen x Marcus mainly gives more Avo; Atk, Crit and Def are all half bonuses, and Atk/Crit are what Lowen wants, not more Avo or Def, his defense is fine already but his offense sucks. Lowen doesn’t need Marcus.
By the lategame the only Chapters where you’d bring Marcus at all are SoT and VoD. I’m not Supporting Lowen with someone who’s only there for two Chapters, not unless it’s his only remaining option. And this is all assuming that Lowen is even played in the first place.
No one said “Marcus is bad.” What I’m saying is “Lategame Hawkeye > Lategame Marcus.”
Ofcourse not. It’s just a rather weak leg to be standing on in a debaet between filler units. Even assuming Marcus has a Support or two. Unless you slow your pace to a crawl, not all your units will be getting full support bonuses while attacking, and depending on how things pan out they may not get full bonuses while defending. Hawkeye is able to move a full six panels and still attack and defend at full power; Marcus very well may not be. There's also no guarantee that Marcus’s support partners will make the cut; small team size in EHM/HHM(which you like to play), ordinary RNG screwage, and other such things may keep 'em out. Stats gained from supports are clearly less valuable than stats possessed inherently.
Unsupported Moulder is not trash. Unsupported Moulder is unimpressive for an unsupported unit; certainly he’s no longer a god tier unit, but he’s hardly what I’d call trash(that would be pplz like Dozla or Syrene). Anyway. The difference between Moulder and Marcus is that Moulder’s always on the field when he’s played, his partners clearly want his Anima Affinity more than any other options they may have, and his partners are either amazing(Vanessa/Colm) or solid(Gilliam) units who are very likely to be played, as opposed to Lowen, who is subpar in my eyes. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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