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[Casual] Simon v Hollie
Topic Started: Dec 28 2006, 03:52 PM (212 Views)
Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

The official topic. Simon defends Vanessa against Hollie and Franz. I forgot to ask earlier, do you prefer opening or ending? I'll do either one, so your choice.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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Hollie
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Resident Brit

I prefer opening.

Although it mgiht take a while to get round to this >>;
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

That's fine. I just wanted to get this up and running. Start whenever you're ready.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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Umby
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Pokemon Fanatic, Umbreon Lover

*creeps into shadows and watches the two master debaters, and gets out notebook with pencil*

:ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

*waits for action*
Posted Image
Wyverns rule. And Sages. And Leeroy Jenkins. And... I got topic again, didn't I? >_<

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
I make mutations upon requests!
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Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

Masters, eh? I can't call that entirely truthful, but hey, works for me.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Light Yagami
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As dog as a Fetch

I know Hollie is good at it :kakashi:
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Yzarc
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Coxian

Umby
Dec 28 2006, 03:42 PM
master debaters

:lol:
Posted ImagePosted Image
Posted Image
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Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

That's exactly what I thought. Lawl @ me being a master debater.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SevenSinMadness


Good luck to the both of you.
I should get around to doing stuff like t his, but I'm not absolutely confident on my knowledge of the mechanics of t he game to put up good arguments :P
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Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

Oh shit, she's starting her post. ;>>
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hollie
Member Avatar
Resident Brit

Okay, so here we go.

Vanessa vs. Franz. Two of the best units in the game, IMO. Obviously Franz is better. AND IM'A PROVE IT, BISH.

Well, let's skip the early and mid game for now and look at end-game stats. IIRC, you generally use a larger team, whilst I use a smaller one, so we'll go for the in-between end level at 20/15. They're both some of your best units, so there's no reason why you wouldn't use them more than your others.

Franz is assumed GK, Vanessa is assumed FK. Decimals have been dropped, so we're working with whole numbers.

Franz - Level 15 Great Knight
HP: 49
STR: 22
SKL: 19
SPD: 23
DEF: 16
RES: 8
LUK: 15

So Franz just about breaches the Crt mark of Swordmasters/Berserkers. You don't see those very often in-game, so against most enemies Franz has excellent durability, with above average Def/HP and adequate Luk. Skl is lacking a little, but when you consider the fact that he has access to the whole weapon triangle, the Skl isn't a problem. Res is pretty terrible; I'll be the first to admit that, but luckily for Franz magic is much scarcer than melee and his dodge is 61; enough to dodge most hits that come his way.

Vanessa - Level 15 Falcon Knight
HP: 38
STR: 18
SKL: 23
SPD: 27
DEF: 14
RES: 16
LUK: 22

Vanessa's Luk and Spd makes it nigh-impossible for her to be hit, but when she does, it won't be pretty. With one of the lowest HP growths in the game, she'll be pretty much guaranteed to suffer whenever she's hit. She's lucky that it doesn't happen often; 76 can dodge mostly everything, and this isn't even counting supports, which I fully expect you to bring up in your post. ;) Don't worry, I'm getting to them.

Her strength is pretty bad; under 20 at the end of the game is terrible. Luckily for her, great skill, speed and supports save her offence - the three S's. But I'm just talking unsupported right now.

To put this into context, Vanessa carries off defence - high avoid, and decent Res/Def wins it out for her. Although of course Franz's large leads in HP and good Def/avoid mean that he'll still be a great survivor, and near equal to Vanessa.

Offensively it's prety much the opposite. Franz has less speed and skill; but the amount of enemies that Vanessa doubles and he doesn't is a negligable amount, and you have other high speed units (Tahna, if you used her, Joshua, Eirika, etc.) to take care of those, so it's not like Vanessa has a unique job.

Franz, on the other hand, has control of the weapon triangle (which he won't have all the time; but a lot of the time), which offers bonuses in Hit, Atk, Avoid and Def. WT control also means access to Axes, the most powerful weapon in the game. Coupled with Franz's great Strength and speed, he turns into a monster. :psio: Of course, his Con isn't perfect for this, but this is why you only take out axes against the stronger, slower enemies. Franz, btw, ends up with enough Con to hold most lances without AS loss, which is more than can be said for Vanessa, who can't even wield the Iron Lance without dropping her AS.

Of course, this is all unsupported. As I believe you've said at some point before, they'll have supports boosting them for most of the game. Let's looks at them with supports.

Supported Franz - Level 15 Great Knight

A Seth B Gilliam; Seth wants Eirika, but Eirika also has Innes/Ephraim to watch out for, so Seth is her B support. Plus, Seth and Franz will be sticking together a lot in early/mid game, and late game they act as a great team when Seth is more vunerable. B Gilliam is Franz's other best option, for an nice frontlining group.

Offense (with Iron Lance):
Atk: 33
Hit: 135%
Crt: 23%
AS: 23

Pretty h4x imo. Franz's attack has now gone through the roof and hit is no longer any sort of problem. Nice Crt, too, especially if he equips a Killer weapon.

Defence (with Iron Lance):
HP: 49
Def: 21
Res: 13
Avd: 73
CrtAvd: 27

Franz's defences have gone from above-average to amazing. Keep in mind that he'll have WTA a lot of the time, in which case he's only adding to this.

Supported Vanessa - Level 15 Falcon Knight

A Moulder B Lute; I don't think I need to explain myself. Anima x Anima, two good characters, pretty quick supports.

Offense (with Iron Lance):
Atk: 30
Hit: 147%
Crt: 11 %
AS: 25

Vanessa's AS has dropped, but not enough to make a noticeable difference. Her attack is now almost of par with Franz's (shows what godly supports can do for you), but let's take into account that Franz can switch up to an Iron Axe if he needs more attack. Vanessa can switch to a better lance, but at a vicious drop to her AS. Hit is still in her favour, but it's huge enough that it doesn't matter for either. Franz wins offense.

Defence (with Iron Lance):
HP: 38
Def: 19
Res: 21
Avd: 97
CrtAvd: 47

I have to say that Vanessa wins hands down. Nearly triple didgit avoid, and Def/Res near enough to 20, with critical evade nearly 50? H4x.

I'd like to point out, though, that Vanessa winning in Defence doesn't neccesarily mean that Franz's defence is bad. As well as recieving help from the WT, his supports have bumped his Res from terrible to acceptable, and his Def has gone from good to great. His avoid is now great, and his CrtAvd is more than he'll need against virtually any enemy, and he STILL has ~50 HP to fall back on if he does, by some miracle, get hit more than once.

That'll do for now. I apologise if any of my Maths is off; it's after midnight here.
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

Hollie
 
Okay, so here we go.

Best of luck to ya, dear. :wub:

Hollie
 
Vanessa vs. Franz. Two of the best units in the game, IMO. Obviously Franz is better. AND IM'A PROVE IT, BISH.

[size=14]OBJECTION![/size]

You can’t prove Franz > Vanessa. :o

Hollie
 
Well, let's skip the early and mid game for now and look at end-game stats. IIRC, you generally use a larger team, whilst I use a smaller one, so we'll go for the in-between end level at 20/15. They're both some of your best units, so there's no reason why you wouldn't use them more than your others.

Works for me. Let’s do this.

Hollie
 
Franz is assumed GK, Vanessa is assumed FK. Decimals have been dropped, so we're working with whole numbers.

Aww…no love for decimals? I’ll add them in for ya later.

Hollie
 
Franz - Level 15 Great Knight
HP: 49
STR: 22
SKL: 19
SPD: 23
DEF: 16
RES: 8
LUK: 15

So Franz just about breaches the Crt mark of Swordmasters/Berserkers.

He would assuming they had 0 Skill. The fact is, Swordmasters and Berserkers have Skill higher than Revenants, so Franz can be expected to see Critical rates on them.

Hollie
 
You don't see those very often in-game, so against most enemies Franz has excellent durability, with above average Def/HP and adequate Luk.

Huh…there’s around 20 Swordmasters in this game. Granted, there’s a mere three Berserkers, but the Swordmaster count in the toughest chapter of the game – Last Hope, Hard Mode – is quite staggering. As for Franz’s unsupported defense, it’s adequate, I’ll give you that. 61 Avoid isn’t dodge-tank worthy and 8 Resistance is not a very friendly number, but his high HP is a good safety net and his Defense, average though it is, makes him durable enough. Unsupported, his durability is average, not excellent. On the other hand, Vanessa unsupported trades…10 HP and 2 Defense for 8 Resistance and 11 Avoid with an Iron Lance. Clear victor against normal enemies.

Hollie
 
Skl is lacking a little, but when you consider the fact that he has access to the whole weapon triangle, the Skl isn't a problem. Res is pretty terrible; I'll be the first to admit that, but luckily for Franz magic is much scarcer than melee and his dodge is 61; enough to dodge most hits that come his way.

Skill, granted, is a laughable weakness. Resistance is one I’d note, though; Last Hope has Mage Knights scampering around with hitrates around 45 against Franz for approximately 13 damage. Both of those numbers are a 4HKO, and ~45 hitrate translates to being hit 40% of the time, so he’s biting the big one after 9-10 hits. That might not be too bad if it weren’t for the fact that there are a dozen Mage Knights in all. Vanessa, meanwhile, takes a mere five damage from MKs if Franz takes 13 damage.

Hollie
 
Vanessa - Level 15 Falcon Knight
HP: 38
STR: 18
SKL: 23
SPD: 27
DEF: 14
RES: 16
LUK: 22

Vanessa's Luk and Spd makes it nigh-impossible for her to be hit, but when she does, it won't be pretty.

Name me an enemy that reliably gets past 72 Avoid. Swordmasters and Heroes are the only ones that come close, and Vanessa has WTA over them. Rangers might have a shot, but their hitrate with a Silver Bow is approximately 30. And if “it won’t be pretty” when Vanessa gets hit, I’m scared to see what happens to Franz, when he gets hit more often and has a mere 2 Defense over her and has half her Resistance.

Hollie
 
With one of the lowest HP growths in the game, she'll be pretty much guaranteed to suffer whenever she's hit. She's lucky that it doesn't happen often; 76 can dodge mostly everything, and this isn't even counting supports, which I fully expect you to bring up in your post.  Don't worry, I'm getting to them.

Hmm…she can make any axe user not named “Hero” hit 0 Hitrate with Swords, she can make any Lance user hit 0 Hitrate with a Lancereaver or bump them into the mid-to-low teens Hitrate with regular Lances, and she can make the “accurate” swordsmen drop to 20s Hitrate with Lances. “Doesn’t happen often” seems a bit undermining, if you ask me; I’d say “once per chapter” is more fitting, if that. With supports, that becomes better, but I’m not there yet either.

Hollie
 
Her strength is pretty bad; under 20 at the end of the game is terrible. Luckily for her, great skill, speed and supports save her offence - the three S's. But I'm just talking unsupported right now.

A bloody good thing Franz ain’t much better off with a not-so-large 4 Strength lead. Steel Sword Vanessa has four less Attack than Iron Axe Franz with the same AS and 12 more Hit and 2 more Crit.

Hollie
 
To put this into context, Vanessa carries off defence - high avoid, and decent Res/Def wins it out for her. Although of course Franz's large leads in HP and good Def/avoid mean that he'll still be a great survivor, and near equal to Vanessa.

Near-equal, huh? I find that doubtful; 11 Avoid and 8 Res >>> 2 Defense and 11 HP.

Hollie
 
Offensively it's pretty much the opposite. Franz has less speed and skill; but the amount of enemies that Vanessa doubles and he doesn't is a negligable amount, and you have other high speed units (Tahna, if you used her, Joshua, Eirika, etc.) to take care of those, so it's not like Vanessa has a unique job.

The fact is, though, Vanessa is superior to her competition; she’s easily better than Joshua, Eirika, and their kin and not as easily better than Tana (yet still better).

Hollie
 
Franz, on the other hand, has control of the weapon triangle (which he won't have all the time; but a lot of the time), which offers bonuses in Hit, Atk, Avoid and Def. WT control also means access to Axes, the most powerful weapon in the game. Coupled with Franz's great Strength and speed, he turns into a monster.  Of course, his Con isn't perfect for this, but this is why you only take out axes against the stronger, slower enemies. Franz, btw, ends up with enough Con to hold most lances without AS loss, which is more than can be said for Vanessa, who can't even wield the Iron Lance without dropping her AS.

So what if Vanessa can’t bust out much without losing AS? Vanessa gets all she needs (Lancereaver, Iron Lance, Steel Sword, Javelin, Silver Lance, Iron Blade) for better or equal AS to Franz. The sole exception is the Javelin, but Vanessa won’t need the Javelin as much as Franz will, since she can afford to take a ranged hit (generally from mages) and kill on her turn; moreover, she’ll be using the Javelin less than Franz will be using the Steel Axe, and the Steel Axe hurts his AS more than the Javelin hurts hers. Plus, Vanessa’s heaviest weapon she should use (Iron Blade) ties her AS with Steel Axe Franz.

Hollie
 
Of course, this is all unsupported. As I believe you've said at some point before, they'll have supports boosting them for most of the game. Let's looks at them with supports.

Indeed, let’s take this from “debatable” to “non-contest.”

Hollie
 
Supported Franz - Level 15 Great Knight

A Seth B Gilliam; Seth wants Eirika, but Eirika also has Innes/Ephraim to watch out for, so Seth is her B support. Plus, Seth and Franz will be sticking together a lot in early/mid game, and late game they act as a great team when Seth is more vulnerable. B Gilliam is Franz's other best option, for an nice frontlining group.

Seth will sooner take Eirika A than Franz A; Seth is Eirika’s best option if we’re speaking of bonuses, and Eirika is Seth’s fastest support. Seth will sooner take a more defensive support to help when he’s vulnerable over an offensive one; better yet, he’ll take both, and Garcia gives it to him with +2 Atk/+5 Crit/+1 Def/+10 Avoid for a B. Franz gives the same minus 5 Avoid plus 1 Defense, which is a losing trade for Seth and his pitiful 25 Luck growth. Franz will probably want A Gilliam, Move difference be damned; they form the frontlines often enough early on, and later on Swiftsole General or regular Great Knight Gilliam keeps up with Great Knight Franz. His best B option if Seth is taken will be Natasha; however, there’s a problem with that, since Vanessa is supporting Moulder and Moulder > Natasha (if you want me to prove that, you need only ask). Forgoing Seth and Natasha leaves Franz with Amelia and Forde, and why bother with either when Franz is in play to begin with?

For now, we’ll roll with A Seth B Gilliam, but don’t think I’m giving up on Franz’s supports just yet.

Hollie
 
Offense (with Iron Lance):
Atk: 33
Hit: 135%
Crt: 23%
AS: 23

Pretty h4x imo. Franz's attack has now gone through the roof and hit is no longer any sort of problem. Nice Crt, too, especially if he equips a Killer weapon.

Blah blah overkill Atk blah blah. ;>> There’s not much else to say.

Hollie
 
Defence (with Iron Lance):
HP: 49
Def: 21
Res: 13
Avd: 73
CrtAvd: 27

Franz's defences have gone from above-average to amazing. Keep in mind that he'll have WTA a lot of the time, in which case he's only adding to this.

So he needs Vanessa to not have her godly supports to beat her defensively. Nice one, Franz.

Hollie
 
Supported Vanessa - Level 15 Falcon Knight

A Moulder B Lute; I don't think I need to explain myself. Anima x Anima, two good characters, pretty quick supports.

To add injury to insult, those two spellcasters are likely the best in the game, and all three make an excellent trio for their own work. Better yet, they fit in nicely with Colm B Moulder A Vanessa B Lute A Kyle B Colm; the only possible objection one could raise to this is the existence of Neimi, but for some reason, I can’t help but think Neimi’s existence means much to you, what with [size=23]INNES[/size] existing.

Hollie
 
Offense (with Iron Lance):
Atk: 30
Hit: 147%
Crt: 11 %
AS: 25

Vanessa's AS has dropped, but not enough to make a noticeable difference. Her attack is now almost of par with Franz's (shows what godly supports can do for you), but let's take into account that Franz can switch up to an Iron Axe if he needs more attack. Vanessa can switch to a better lance, but at a vicious drop to her AS. Hit is still in her favour, but it's huge enough that it doesn't matter for either. Franz wins offense.

Now, does he? Silver Lance Vanessa has the same Attack Speed as Franz’s *maximum* Attack Speed. A Silver Lance brings her up to 37 Attack, more than enough to kill things. Franz can do that too, but it’s overkill on him, so why bother? Normally, I wouldn’t dare advertise countering Iron with Silver, but it’s the end of the game, who cares?

Or…

Hollie
 
I'd like to point out, though, that Vanessa winning in Defence doesn't neccesarily mean that Franz's defence is bad. As well as recieving help from the WT, his supports have bumped his Res from terrible to acceptable, and his Def has gone from good to great. His avoid is now great, and his CrtAvd is more than he'll need against virtually any enemy, and he STILL has ~50 HP to fall back on if he does, by some miracle, get hit more than once.

I’d like to point out, though, that Franz winning in Offence doesn’t necessarily mean that Vanessa’s offence is bad. As well as receiving help from the WT, her supports have bumped her AS from great to great, and her Atk has gone from good to great as well. Her Hit is now great, and her Crit is more than she’ll need against virtually any enemy, and she STILL has Silver Lances to fall back on if she does, by some miracle, not kill an enemy readily.

Hollie
 
Defence (with Iron Lance):
HP: 38
Def: 19
Res: 21
Avd: 97
CrtAvd: 47

I have to say that Vanessa wins hands down. Nearly triple digit avoid, and Def/Res near enough to 20, with critical evade nearly 50? H4x.

Good, I don’t have to cover this.

Hollie
 
I'd like to point out, though, that Vanessa winning in Defence doesn't neccesarily mean that Franz's defence is bad. As well as recieving help from the WT, his supports have bumped his Res from terrible to acceptable, and his Def has gone from good to great. His avoid is now great, and his CrtAvd is more than he'll need against virtually any enemy, and he STILL has ~50 HP to fall back on if he does, by some miracle, get hit more than once.


Not much to say; Franz is durable, but that doesn't say much in a game where spellcasters have powerful durability.

Hollie
 
That'll do for now. I apologise if any of my Maths is off; it's after midnight here.

No problem. You made the decimals cry, though.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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