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| Rutger vs Dieck in HM | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 2 2007, 12:40 PM (1,178 Views) | |
| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 02:08 AM Post #16 |
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One serious d00d
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Hm. 4/0 HM Rutger 25.5 Hp 8.8 Str 14.0 Skl 15.0 Spd 3.5 Luck 5.8 Def 0.9 Res 7 Con 7/0-8/0 Dieck 28.3 Hp 10.0 Str 13.0 Skl 10.8 Spd 5.9 Luck 6.5 Def 1.4 Res 13 Con Even at these levels I’m not sure if Dieck wins. A 4-5 point AS lead is hard to beat; AS is most significant during the early chapters by far. Dieck’s level lead will quickly disappear, and once they’re on even footing, no contest. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Admin | Jan 3 2007, 02:17 AM Post #17 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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However, Dieck can use an Iron Blade with no AS penality, and Rutger would have a 5 point penality should he use one, which would pretty much nullify Rutger's SPD advantage. So when you first get them both, I think Dieck is a bit better. However, I suppose Rutger does surpass him. However, I'm not sure how supports would factor in, but Dieck has already had time to get supports with somone like Lott. Lott, while not one of the best characters in the game, is a pretty good tank, and has a good affinity with him. And Dieck can also use axes with little to no AS penality once he gets them. Axes are inaccurate in this game, but Dieck also has the SKL to use them pretty well. This is especially useful, since I'm fairly certain he can double the beastly endgame wyverns. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 02:25 AM Post #18 |
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One serious d00d
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You don’t run around spamming Iron Blades, though. The Mt difference between Iron Blade and Steel Sword is one point. Most of the time there will be no difference between how many hits they take to kill the enemy, while the Steel Sword will be more accurate, drain less funds, and in Rutger’s case, grant more AS and Avo.
Lott doesn’t impress me. Yes, he’s fairly tanky, but the tankiness comes at the wrong time. Late in the game is when most units already have good durability, and that’s when Lott’s Hp/Def is impressive. During the early chapters his defense is not at all impressive; his base Def is 4. His offense is decidedly unimpressive. He’s almost like Lowen in that respect. 30% Str/Skl and 35% Spd; Lowen has 30% in all 3. FE6 Axes are also very shoddy; he has the worst weapon combo. He’s still not terrible overall or anything, like so many of this game’s units, but I don’t see him being played often in HM. Regardless, Dieck has like 2 chapters before Rutger joins to Support Lott. Not even enough for a C, and even if he has C Lott, that only gives +1 Def/+5 Avo in significant stats, which I don’t think is nearly enough to make up for the Spd gap. Considering how often Lott is even played, Rutger’s faster Clarine Support is much more significant.
Depends on whether or not he can consistently one-round them with Axes, though. He doesn’t get much Atk Support at all and his Str isn’t amazing, so I wouldn’t think that he does. In which case, Rutger’s 60+ base Crit(w/ Supports) FTW. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| snpies | Jan 3 2007, 03:01 AM Post #19 |
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Wait, what's wrong with overkill? |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 08:38 AM Post #20 |
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Power of Flower
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The Swordmaster class is worthless in the lategame. Half of the enemies are literally wyvern riders and wyvern lords, so the Swordmasters get butchered while a Hero like Dieck just equips an axe and uses his superior STR/DEF/HP to win. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 10:28 AM Post #21 |
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One serious d00d
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At 20/10, w/ Rutger having A Clarine/B Dieck and Dieck have B Clarine/B Rutger, Rutger has 18 more Avo than Dieck. That means that against Wyverns and other lance enemies, Dieck has a mighty 2 more Avo, and against all other enemies Rutger has 18 more. Dieck has a 3-4 point Def lead against Lances and a 1-2 point lead against anything else; I’m not sure if that wins the defense for him, though. He clearly wins against Lances, but Rutger clearly wins against anything else(yes, 18 Avo > 1-2 Def, and I guess 1 Hp), and Rutger’s ridiculous Crit gives him over 50% odds of killing on the first hit against many enemies, and thus, not getting countered. And as long as we’re talking lategame, Rutger is one of the best boss killers. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 12:55 PM Post #22 |
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Power of Flower
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Rutger won't kill any wyverns in one critical unless he's using a pricy weapon. Winning against Wyverns/lances > winning vs everything else combined. That might not sound logical to you, but if you play hardmode, you'll realize this is true. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 02:13 PM Post #23 |
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One serious d00d
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Which is, of course, why I said “many enemies.” Not “all enemies.”
lol, no. These are not the only enemies, not by a long shot, nor are they always the most numerous. To say one enemy class outweighs all others combined is ridiculous in any mode of any FE. And I’m not even sure if Dieck wins against them. Most of the time his defensive advantage will make no difference, and when he’s not 2HKO’ing the Wyverns(which will be the case pretty frequently w/ common weapons, if a Crit from Rutger can’t kill them), Rutger’s offense is better. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Admin | Jan 3 2007, 06:03 PM Post #24 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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CATS, most of the enemies endgame are either things like Paladins, or Wyverns. For example, the chapter with Murdock, one of the hardest bosses in the game, at least half the enemies are Wyverns. And that chapter was hard as balls, even when I did it on normal mode. And I wouldn't say that Rutger is the best boss killer. Against some bosses, there is no dedicated "boss killer", because they will beat the shit out of nearly everyone. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 07:51 PM Post #25 |
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One serious d00d
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Rly? Then who is better? |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 08:35 PM Post #26 |
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Power of Flower
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CATS, like 30% of all enemies in this game are Wyverns, and like 70% total use lances and are tankish. Rutger loses to Dieck after promotion due to this. |
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| Eaichu | Jan 3 2007, 10:00 PM Post #27 |
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Leadership
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Any reason why...? Rutger is still outdoing Dieck offensively due to the constant critical rate. That alone sets the difference in their effectiveness in battle. As far as defense goes, CATS already covered it-- Dieck has a mighty 2 Avo, 3-4 DEF lead and 1 more HP against Lances. At 20/10 HM, Rutger is likely to have 18 STR while Dieck will have 20. While Rutger is locked to swords, knocking his ATK down, he's very likely to do 3x attack setting the record straight in his favour... 30% is very consistent, considering he only needs to strike once with said consistency in order to be put ahead of Dieck. And against everything else, Rutger is clearly superior. |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 10:39 PM Post #28 |
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Power of Flower
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Ok, I'll have to actually go into this. For the lategame comparison, Dieck will have a 2 level lead since he starts with a big lead and it will dwindle as the game goes on. I'm not going to use supports because I'm too lazy and they both have great supports anyways. I'll just round the stats wee~ Level 20/14 Hero HP: 55 STR: 22 SKL: 24 SPD: 20 LUK: 15 DEF: 16 RES: 7 CON: 14 Level 20/12 Swordmaster HP: 52 STR: 19 SKL: 29 SPD: 29 LUK: 11 DEF: 14 RES: 8 CON: 8 Hmmm. Statistically, they look about even, with Rutger's SPD giving him an edge. Well, it would give him an edge if Dieck didn't double every single lance user as well, so doubling = non-issue. Dieck, Iron Axe vs Lancer HP: 55 Attack: 31 Hit: 130 AS: 20 Avoid: 65 Defense: 17 Crit: 12 Crit Evd: 15 Rutger, Iron Sword vs Lancer HP: 52 Attack: 23 Hit: 138 AS: 29 Avoid: 59 Defense: 13 Crit: 44 Crit Evd: 11 Really now, it's no contest whatsoever against a lance wielder. Dieck's STR and use of axes gives him such a crushing victory. 23 Attack with an iron sword against Paladins and Wyverns that boast 14-17 DEF, and then Wyvern Lords with nearly 20 DEF, and then Generals with over 20 DEF...Rutger won't be doing much of anything, even with his criticals. Dieck, with his more solid STR + use of axes, can deal a lot more damage and take more hits as well. Rutger's Hit lead is as meaningless as Dieck's Crit Evd lead. AS doesn't matter since both will double everything, with Dieck failing to double a few speed demons like Swordmasters and Heroes. Against lance users, both will always double. If supports really close the gap and give Rutger the win, or swapping to other weapons, please show me how. I think Dieck's use of hand axes further bolsters his use against lancers, since he can strike them for good damage without being countered at all, something Rutger cannot do. Dieck also has solid supports, so, I don't see how Rutger can possibly compete against lance users. Winning against non-lancers barely matters, since almost all enemies use lances at the end of the midgame onwards. Beating out WYVERNS, specifically, is incredibly important. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 10:39 PM Post #29 |
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One serious d00d
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Okay, if you're going to start spouting specific values, do you have any sources? I was poking around on GFAQs and could find nothing that even remotely supported the idea that 70% of all enemies use lances. lol @ that. And like Eaichu pointed out, the fact that Rutger is arguably better against lances anyway has been ignored. And you say "after promotion." Before promotion there is no contest at all, as Dieck has almost no advantages at all at that point. There is indeed a contest for their performance after promotion, as evidenced by the simple fact that we are debaeting it. Rutger looks more consistent. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 10:41 PM Post #30 |
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Power of Flower
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Dieck wins in the earlygame, IMO, due to his level lead + STR lead. Rutger does win the midgame from his AS, but then loses the lategame due to classes. |
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