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| Rutger vs Dieck in HM | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 2 2007, 12:40 PM (1,177 Views) | |
| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 10:47 PM Post #31 |
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One serious d00d
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We same time post'd, so.
Rubbish. Dieck has like a 3-4 level lead initially. Over the course of the entire game, like 15+ chapters, only 1.5 of that disappears? No way.
Also rubbish. Supports exist and will be used, therefore they must be considered. You don’t discard something just because it helps the other side. And 22 Atk w/ Iron Sword? No, with your numbers he has 19 Str + 5 Mt – 1 WT = 23. And why are you giving him an Iron Sword if it’s killing his Atk that much? Use Steel.
So, a part of the game which makes up less than half of it is the only part that matters?
Even if Rutger clearly lost the lategame, which he doesn't, early + mid together > late alone. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 10:56 PM Post #32 |
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Power of Flower
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Steel hurts his Avoid and is less cost efficient. Even with a Steel Sword, Iron Axe Dieck is winning, and Steel Axe Dieck is raping. Against lance users, Dieck wins from his sheer might and having axes. About supports, I'm way too lazy to do that math for a casual debate. ![]() Wyverns/Paladins = only enemies worth worrying about besides a few random things like Random Hero23 with Brave Sword. Winning against them is very valuable. |
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| Admin | Jan 3 2007, 11:09 PM Post #33 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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It's not rubbish that the majority of lategame enemies are Paladins/Wyverns. There are tons of those guys. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 11:15 PM Post #34 |
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One serious d00d
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Most certainly worth the damage increase if his offense is hurting as badly as you say it is.
C’mon, it’s kindergarten math. A Clarine/B Dieck is +25 Crit/+25 Avo/+12 Hit/+25 CEV/+0 Atk/+2 Def for Rutger. B Clarine/B Rutger is +20 Crit/+20 Avo/+5 Hit/+20 CEV/+0 Atk/+3 Def for Dieck. So add those in, and take away Dieck’s silly level lead. Now let’s look at this again. 20/10 Dieck w/ Steel Axe has 7 more Atk than 20/10 Rutger w/ Steel Sword vs Lances. He also has 18 AS. jU sure that’s enough to DA everything? Anyway. Rutger has 69 Crit, we’ll say 65 after enemy Luck just to have a nice round number. Dieck’s Crit is 31, 27 in practice, applying the same thing to him. Paladins and Wyverns w/ 15 Def, we’ll say. Rutger w/ one Crit does 40 Dmg; the odds that at least one of his attacks is a Crit are 87.75%, which is actually reliable, zomg. Dieck w/ two normal hits does 34 Dmg. His odds of Critting at least once are 46.71%, which, sadly, falls below the halfway mark and is not reliable at all. Even when it happens, the odds that Rutger Crits twice and does 60 Dmg are still substantially higher(57.75%). Entirely arguable. Dieck does not "clearly" win, if he even wins at all. Also, w/ Steel Axe, Dieck can actually miss; his Hit is 90% against a 12 Spd/4 Luck enemy, which is fine, but if they happen to be on a forest, fort, pillar, or something like that, it goes down to 70%. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 11:18 PM Post #35 |
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Power of Flower
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15 DEF is the Paladin half...Wyverns have more, if we're talking lategame. ![]() Edit: Why won't Dieck have full supports? |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 11:19 PM Post #36 |
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One serious d00d
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You clearly said:
Implying that they have about the same Def. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 11:20 PM Post #37 |
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Power of Flower
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Whoops. Worded that poorly then, my bad. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 11:21 PM Post #38 |
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One serious d00d
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So, uh, unpromoted Dragon Knights have over 17 Def, but the Dragon Masters only have ~20? |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Jan 3 2007, 11:22 PM Post #39 |
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Power of Flower
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The only increases between Wyvern Knight --> Wyvern Lord, honestly, are in HP/STR, while nothing else goes up except by like 1-3 points. XD |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 3 2007, 11:24 PM Post #40 |
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One serious d00d
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:richie: Gimme some screenshots. All other FEs are nothing like that. EDIT: Wait, nevermind. I just looked at FE8 and the WL only has 2 more Def than the WR average. Lemme get some class growths...... The base Def of an enemy WL is 10 and their growth is 20%; it requires 50 level ups for them to get 20 Def, so basically, I don't have any idea how this game's HM boosts work. For the enemies at least. So meh. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Light Yagami | Jan 3 2007, 11:59 PM Post #41 |
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As dog as a Fetch
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Bah, forgive me for popping in rather late but I'll just give my two cents (this might have been said before) In Hard Mode. hm... Well I'de go with Rutger Just because of those darn good HM bonuses. Also they both seem rather similar stat-wise and I love LOVE the +30% crit boost and high ass speed. I've only beaten the game like 3 times so I don't know that much about unit comparison...unless I just look at stats and growths. so...
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| Inui | Jan 4 2007, 11:57 AM Post #42 |
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Power of Flower
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Rutger's bonuses aren't good, though. They're the worst. They help him compete with your other units, but meh. Dieck vs Rutger is no contest in NM, at any rate, |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 4 2007, 12:07 PM Post #43 |
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One serious d00d
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Dunno 'bout that. GFAQs vets say: Rutger wins even in NM. And their views are generally some of the best out there. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Eaichu | Jan 4 2007, 01:01 PM Post #44 |
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Leadership
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In NM, I think it's more of a fair contest. Dieck's SPD isn't as much of a handicap as it was for him before, with the enemies being generally slower(There's still some he can't DA though, mind you.) and the STR gap being farther away. Neither are getting any attack from their supports. At 20/10, the STR gap is 4 points while the SPD gap is 6 points-- but I don't see what Dieck isn't doubling while weighed down at any point in the game. Rutger is evading a bit more against everything that isn't equipped with a lance, and Dieck clearly wins against those who are wielding lances. Lance enemies aren't the majority for most of the earlygame and midgame, but near the endgame they end up being the crux of it; so Dieck can exercise his axeiness over Rutger a bit more easily. Howevurrr. If Rutger has Steel Sword + Fully Supported(25% CRT + 30% natural + 13% f/SKL) and Dieck has Steel Axe + Fully Supported(20% CRT + 11% f/SKL), Rutger is closing the offense gap pretty clearly with over 50%(!!!) chance to critical while Dieck is settling for 30%(Probably less, factoring in luck.), so while Dieck will pull off a CRT once in a while, putting his damage in said round ahead of Rutger, Rutger will critical far more often against everything else... making his damage output much better anyway. Dieck has a more attack than Rutger in the case, but he's also criticalling far less(CATS pointed out that Rutger's chances are around 84%, this is true.) soooooo... 3x attack is nothing something to be laughed at, even with Rutger's averageish STR. Considering Rutger will always double, his chances of criticalling are ridiculously high, and that's nothing Dieck can compare with. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 4 2007, 03:15 PM Post #45 |
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One serious d00d
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Yeah, it's debaetable. Not a total non-contest, like Inui said. And, I just realized. If HM Dragon Knight Def is really as high as Inui says it is(18), that only means Rutger wins against them for sure. 20/10 Steel Axe Dieck does 14 Dmg and DAs for 28 total Dmg, which almost certainly fails to kill. With one Crit he can kill, while Rutger needs two Crits......but again, Rutger's odds of Critting twice are better than Dieck's odds of Critting once. Therefore, Rutger's offense is better. |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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