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Rutger vs Dieck in HM
Topic Started: Jan 2 2007, 12:40 PM (1,176 Views)
Inui
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Power of Flower

Well, I don't think Rutger can win in NM. I just look at their stats and LOL, since Dieck doubles everything even with his lesser SPD, and wins in HP/STR/DEF/LUK by pretty solid amounts.
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C475_1337
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He's not DAing everything for the entire game. Surely not early on. And even late, there must be a few things like SMs and such.

I think Eaichu covered NM well enough.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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There is a light that never goes out...

I went and cheated my way to chapter 21, recording AS values, and also got screenshots of the Wyverns in chapter 21.

To start out with, there are 20 Wyverns, and 5 Wyvern Lords. Many more batchs of reinforcemnets of these guys come, as well as many paladins. Anyway, here are the screen shots:
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The most of the normal Wyverns have Steel Lances and Javelins (there are 5 groups of 4, and 1 in each group has a killer lance), the Wyvern Lords have Silver Lances.

Dieck with a Steel Axe doubles the normal Wyverns easily. He does like 16 or 17 (20.6 STR+1 WTA+11 Steel Axe-16 DEF) damage on them. They do die in 3 hits.

Rutger with a Steel Sword does like 9 (18.25 STR-1WTD+8 Steel Sword-16 DEF) damage on them twice. Rutger needs to hit them 5 or 6 times to get a kill. He does need two Crits, which barely puts him in front of Dieck's normal.

I didn't put in supports for either, because I didn't feel like looking how much ATK they get from supports.

The Wyvern Lords... Dieck doubles 3 of the 5 starting ones. I count 1 with 14 AS, 2 with 15, and 2 with 16. Rutger doubles all.

Dieck does 13.6 per hit. Rutger does 6.25. Eh, debatable against these guys, since Rutger doubling has more chances of getting crits. But thats all that saves him here. Dieck does double his normal damage output.

Rutger crits like what, 20-30% more than Dieck? Is that enough to say Rutger has a better offense, when Dieck deals double the amount of damage on Wyvern Lords, and almost double against the normal ones?

Anyway, I'll post the AS values I got later, for some more comparision here. Unfortunately, since I didn't get Sue and killed Shin on my cheat run, I had to go through the Ilia route, so I don't have the Sacae AS values.
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C475_1337
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IIRC the Sacae chapters have the enemies with the highest AS, so that would help Rutger. Again, just IIRC.

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Rutger crits like what, 20-30% more than Dieck? Is that enough to say Rutger has a better offense, when Dieck deals double the amount of damage on Wyvern Lords, and almost double against the normal ones?


Dieck does not kill that Dragon Rider in two normal hits. He needs one Crit. Rutger needs two Crits. Like I said already, Rutger's odds of getting two Crits > Dieck's odds of getting one. So yeah, Rutger wins.

And against the Masters, Rutger DAs all of 'em in exchange for his drop in raw damage.

But wow. Just, wow. I badly underestimated the stats of FE6 HM enemies. Unpromoted Wyverns with 47 Hp? wtfh4x
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Yeah dude, those Wyverns are mean.

Anyway, about the normal Wyverns. Lets say Rutger gets one crit against them. About 27 damage, right? Rutger has about 50% crit? Mathmatically, his next hit probably won't crit. And his next hit won't kill the Wyvern either. So, it would most likely take 3 hits for Rutger to kill a Wyvern Rider, and that is assuming he crits twice out of 3 times. That ties Dieck without Dieck critting once.

Against the Lords, yes, he does double attack all of them. But that doesn't make up for the raw damage Dieck puts out. If Dieck hits for 13 once, and Rutger hits for 6 twice, Dieck has the better damage output. Rutger could only arguably have the advantage against the two Dieck can't double, because Rutger has more chances to crit. Like I said, its arguable there, so maybe they are tied on the two Dieck doesn't double.

I wish I could get AS values from the Sacae route, but I don't think nomad's AS would be too much different from pegasus rider's AS.
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C475_1337
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I underestimated enemy Avo and CEV, so that changes everything. Rutger has 60% Crit against that Rider, Dieck has 22%. Rutger needs two Crits to kill, Dieck needs one. If the enemy has a Javelin, Dieck has 78% Hit(90.32% real), Rutger has 97%(99.82% real; might as well be 100). Rutger’s odds of a double Crit are ~35.87% factoring in his Hitrate as well(since you must Hit in order to Crit). Dieck must get one Crit. His odds of getting that are ~35.79% factoring his Hitrate. So Rutger wins by a whole 0.08%.

If they have Steel Lance, Rutger has 100 Hit, Dieck has 82%(93.52% real). Then Rutger’s odds of a double Crit are 36% even. Dieck’s odds of one Crit are 36.92%. So Dieck wins by 0.92%.

Neither one of these matters. They are almost exactly the same.

When the thing has a Killer Lance, Dieck fails to DA. Then his odds of one Crit are ~19.47%, while Rutger’s odds of two are ~35.64%. ~16.17% advantage for Rutger. That’s actually notable, or it is compared to the other two things, which were both victories by less than a whole point.

Against the Masters, even Dieck needs two Crits to kill, Rutger can’t kill even if he Crits twice. Dieck’s odds of a double Crit are too low to be worth anything though(lol 3.79%). How much they’re hurting the thing matters more, so that others can kill it. Rutger wins if Dieck doesn’t DA, Dieck wins if he does.

Anyway, my point is proven. Dieck does not easily win, if he even wins at all.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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How does Rutger still have 60 Crit? Shouldn't that be like 50 Crit, with their LUK?

Against these guys, I guess it's closer than what I first thought, but I still think Dieck has the edge, even if it isn't huge.

Dieck wins against the Wyverns with Javelins, simply because he can use a Hand Axe. And I still am going to hand it to Dieck against the Steel Lance Wyverns, since Dieck doesn't even need to crit them in order to tie Rutger. If Dieck gets a crit on either of his first two blows, they are dead faster than what Rutger could do. Chances are alot better there than for critting twice in a row.

Anyway, I finished looking over the AS of enemies I went through on the way to chapter 21. I basically had Dieck gain one level per chapter, and compared his average to their AS.
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Chapter 3:  Doubles everything (90% soldiers and knights).  Doesn't double 2 fighters, and 2 archers.  Doubles the cavaliers that come.

Chapter 4: Doesn't double anything but a few archers.

Chapter 5: Mostly fighters, Dieck doubles them.  Doesn't double the Mercs or the few nomads.

Chapter 6: Mostly soldiers and mages, doubles most things other than mercs.

Chapter 7: Doubles just about everything other than sword cavaliers (who equip javelins most of the time, in which case he does double).

Chapter 8: Doubles everything other than mages, with an 80% chance to double them

Chapter 8x: Doubles everything but Mercs and Myrmidons

Chapter 9: Doubles everything but a few fighters, and mercs.

Chapter 10: Doubles everything but mercs and pirate reinforcements.

Chapter 11: Doubles most things, other units without steel weapons

Chapter 12: Doubles just about everything other than some Fighters.  Doubles Mamkute boss.

Chapter 12x:  Doubles nearly everything (wasn't able to make fully sure, its a dark chapter, and only Roy was alive at this point, so I didn't get to check before enemies died half the time).

Chapter 13: Doubles the cavaliers and wyverns, so most of the enemies.  Doesn't double paladins, 2 mages, or 3 mercs.

Chapter 14: This chapter is evil, and Dieck doesn't double much of anything.  Again, since this was a sand storm, wasn't able to make fully sure.  He probably doubles some axe users, but I'm not sure.

Chapter 14x: Doubles everything but some crazy 17 AS mercs.  Mostly axes here though.

Chapter 15: Doubles everything but mercs, just about.  A decent number of mercs, though.

Chapter 16: Doubles most everything, 80% chance of doubling mages.

Chapter 16x: Doubles most everything other than mercs.

Chapter 17 Ilia: Doubles just about everything (mostly cavaliers).

Chapter 18 Ilia: Doubles Pegs that are weighed down (most), wyverns (I think), and most everything else other than a the mercs.

Chapter 19 Ilia: Blizzard map, so I'm not 100% sure on everything.  Doubles Pegs that are weighed down (most, I think), 70% to have the SPD to double all cavaliers, and paladins.

Chapter 20 Ilia: Doubles most everything except mercs.

Chapter 20x Ilia:  Didn't get this map :(

Earlygame Rutger has a bit more DAs, and middle game the only thing Dieck doesn't double are Mercenaries.
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C475_1337
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How does Rutger still have 60 Crit? Shouldn't that be like 50 Crit, with their LUK?


No. His base Crit is 69, and their Luck is 9. If Rutger has 50 Crit, then Dieck’s Crit is 12.

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And I still am going to hand it to Dieck against the Steel Lance Wyverns, since Dieck doesn't even need to crit them in order to tie Rutger.


Dieck wins against them, yes, by less than a point. Who caers.

If he uses Hand Axe against the ones with Javelins, his Dmg lead goes from 7 points down to 3 points against *all* of them, while he only gains the ability to counter the ones with Javelins(he could counter the Steel and Killer already). I think that’s a losing trade for Dieck.

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If Dieck gets a crit on either of his first two blows, they are dead faster than what Rutger could do. Chances are alot better there than for critting twice in a row.


If by “alot” you mean 0.92% higher, then yes.

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Earlygame Rutger has a bit more DAs, and middle game the only thing Dieck doesn't double are Mercenaries.


Before promotion Dieck doesn’t even have any advantages to fight Rutger’s AS lead with.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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If he uses Hand Axe against the ones with Javelins, his Dmg lead goes from 7 points down to 3 points against *all* of them, while he only gains the ability to counter the ones with Javelins(he could counter the Steel and Killer already). I think that’s a losing trade for Dieck.

I think being able to hit them is good enough, right? The way the map works out, only someone like Miledy can afford to move out and fight them. From the begining, you basically only have two ways move your troops, and both bottleneck. The Javelin Wyverns will attack from outside their range, while things like Wyvern Lords or Paladins will block the path for direct attack. So they will be chunking Javelins at them, and Dieck has a way to counter... Rutger does not.

But granted, I'd rather him just keep his Steel Axe and fight whats in front, so I guess that isn't very much a victory.

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Before promotion Dieck doesn’t even have any advantages to fight Rutger’s AS lead with.

He is slightly better in STR and DEF, isn't he? They are basically even against most things, but I say Dieck is slightly better since he normally has a few points of STR or DEF on Rutger.
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Inui
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I'm still rooting for Dieck here and see him as the overall winner because of his class and STR/DEF.
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C475_1337
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He is slightly better in STR and DEF, isn't he?


At 10/0 Dieck has 0.4 more Str and their Def is the same. After a few more levels his Str lead is enough to be rounded up to 1, but it’s still no match at all for Rutger’s AS and Avo leads.

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They are basically even against most things, but I say Dieck is slightly better since he normally has a few points of STR or DEF on Rutger.


On NM, yes. On HM, no. And the topic is Rutger vs Dieck in HM.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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C475_1337
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I'm still rooting for Dieck here and see him as the overall winner because of his class and STR/DEF.


After looking at some things on GFAQs, I believe are something like 70+ Dragon Riders and Masters in Chapter 21......

So let me get this straight, just to be clear on the FE6 standards and such. Rutger clearly beats Dieck against all enemies except Dragon Riders and Masters. Let's say Dieck barely edges out against Dragon Riders and Masters.

Your position, Vegeta and Sentenal, is that Dieck > Rutger due to this small advantage against the Wyverns outweighing Rutger's advantage against everything else, correct? Not disagreeing with this, just making sure that this is your position.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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My position:

Rutger>Dieck against Speedy things like Mid-game Mercenaries, or early game cavaliers

Rutger=Dieck against things like midgame cavaliers, most axe users, etc etc (since... they both double them)... At least till Dieck gets axes, then I might say Dieck>Rutger against some.

Dieck>Rutger against Wyverns.
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C475_1337
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That's clear enough. But who's winning overall?
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Well, he has the edge early game, since he can double those 10 AS cavaliers. Early middle game, he has the advantage, because he can double the mercs. Late middle game, Dieck gets Axes, so I'm tempted to say he wins there, but that might just be a tie, since those Mercs are still around. Lategame, I say Dieck wins aganst the Wyverns.

So, if you look at it like that, Rutger wins. I think I just value his lategame importance a bit more, so thats why I say Dieck. Other than against Wyverns, he is also a good choice for Armads or Durandal, while Rutger would be limited to Durandal, and since Dieck can double the dragons in the last chapter, I think he is a better choice for even that.
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