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Magic users!; ((Because this place needs moar debaet))
Topic Started: Jan 29 2007, 08:10 PM (1,631 Views)
Michael
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JediSSJ

First of all, joining time does matter. Don't be stupid. The fact that Pent doesn't join until the game is halfway over IS significant. It may not be the end-all deciding factor, but it is worth noting and considering.

Their healing power is even (MAG). Pent has good weapons levels, and that is one of his strongest points. Louise is a very meh unit in a very meh class, so the auto-support there really isn't that great a deal - why use an inferior unit for supports instead of just using an all-around better one? Pent would be better with an A with Canas. Pent does have better Con and Def, of course, he is primarily as offensive magic user and Priscilla is primarily a healer, so if his use of heavier weapons (only one step heavier, though) gives him better offense, well then fine. Level-wise, you should have at least one of your magic users up to at least Pent's level by the time he joins, so that really isn't an advantage for him - he'll actualy probably be a few levels behind Priscilla, is you use her over Serra (which you should).
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Super Smash Bros Brawl Friend Code: 0989 1408 5291

Quote:
 
Michael says:
-So....when worse comes to worse, how should I write -BlackLion out of the RP?
Psio says:
-eaten by a lion
Psio says:
-whle in a car
Michael says:
-hmmmm...fittting
Psio says:
-and the lion has a ">:3" face
Psio says:
-and says "rawr"
Michael says:
-....so I should sick Kovu after him?
Rock says:
-yes
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Inui
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Power of Flower

Bullshit, Jedi.

You can like the chick all you want, but she's not as good as Pent.

Priscilla with a level lead over Pent? No, not happening. There is no incentive to drop Serra and heal only with Priscilla when Serra will have a huge level lead.

Pent is an outstanding and superior unit in both healing and magic right when you get him. Priscilla needs babying and staff spamming.

Edit: I don't care enough to actually debate this character match-up. It's just too one-sided in Pent's favour and nobody in Hell would agree with you.
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C475_1337
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One serious d00d

Quote:
 
First of all, joining time does matter. Don't be stupid. The fact that Pent doesn't join until the game is halfway over IS significant. It may not be the end-all deciding factor, but it is worth noting and considering.


Therefore I conclude:

Lott >>> Percival

Lowen >>> Harken

Athos <<< All

Or you could actually explain your position, instead of simply insisting that you are correct.

Quote:
 
Pent does have better Con and Def, of course, he is primarily as offensive magic user and Priscilla is primarily a healer, so if his use of heavier weapons (only one step heavier, though) gives him better offense, well then fine. Level-wise, you should have at least one of your magic users up to at least Pent's level by the time he joins, so that really isn't an advantage for him - he'll actualy probably be a few levels behind Priscilla, is you use her over Serra (which you should).


Priscilla at Pent’s base level by Unfulfilled Heart? Rubbish. Not happening without Staff Abuse, no way. You can atleast get Erk or someone that high if you just feed them all the kills.

Inui may sound like he's taking it too far, but he's in the right.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Michael
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JediSSJ

CATS
Jan 30 2007, 05:13 AM
Quote:
 
First of all, joining time does matter. Don't be stupid. The fact that Pent doesn't join until the game is halfway over IS significant. It may not be the end-all deciding factor, but it is worth noting and considering.


Therefore I conclude:

Lott >>> Percival

Lowen >>> Harken

Athos <<< All

Or you could actually explain your position, instead of simply insisting that you are correct.

Are you being stupid on purpose?

I said:
"It may not be the end-all deciding factor, but it is worth noting and considering."

That alone shows how dumb your post is. Of course joining time matters! I don't care HOW good Pent is, he is completely worthless for the first half of the game because you can't use him. This is common sense, people. If there is only a few chapter's difference in joining time then it may be negligable, but the fact is that Pent doesn't join until Chapter 26 of 33. Sorry, but no matter what you say, that is a serious mark against Pent. I'm not saying it is the absolute decider or anything, it's just a real point that must be considered. Everyone has their Pros and Cons -- yes, even Pent has disadvantages.


But you know what? Don't worry about. The Pent-fanboys are the most hard-headed of them all and there is no way to argue against you all because you refuse to look at it from any perspective other than your own, and you refuse to acknowledge that Pent is not the end-all of magic, or that your opinion may not be absolute fact. Or even that there may BE no absolute answer to the question. It is a matter of opinion, personal preference, and playing style. Screw your eletist bullshit.

For me:
Priscilla > Pent/Canas > Serra/Lucius > Erk > Athos > Nino > Renault (forgot him)
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Super Smash Bros Brawl Friend Code: 0989 1408 5291

Quote:
 
Michael says:
-So....when worse comes to worse, how should I write -BlackLion out of the RP?
Psio says:
-eaten by a lion
Psio says:
-whle in a car
Michael says:
-hmmmm...fittting
Psio says:
-and the lion has a ">:3" face
Psio says:
-and says "rawr"
Michael says:
-....so I should sick Kovu after him?
Rock says:
-yes
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Inui
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Power of Flower

Well, your opinion is wrong. Plain and simple. There's really no other way to put it.

You haven't really shown how Priscilla is outdoing Pent at all. Priscilla existing when Pent isn't on your team is meaningless if Pent immediately starts outdoing her and consistently does so.

Your logic with joining time is incredibly flawed.

You have Pent for more than 7 chapters, by the way.
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(*Jman*)
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Kakatte Koi!

JediSSJ
Jan 30 2007, 12:41 AM
I don't care HOW good Pent is, he is completely worthless for the first half of the game because you can't use him.

Serra is obviously the best unit in the game because you have her for the longest. Much better than Hector. Since this is FE7, not being in early game does not hurt Pent much in usefulness.
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Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto
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Hatake Asuka
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Gakutorishiusu

Hmm

Pent -> Erk -> Lucius -> Canas

Counting the ones I actually use (the latter two only from time to time.)

Otherwise...

Pent -> Serra -> Erk -> Lucius -> Priscilla -> Canas -> Renault ----------------------------------------> Nino.

My humble opinion D:
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Formerly: morph assas(s)in sage like guy, Morph Ephidel, Daefun, Hatake Asuka, Overlord.
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Crysta
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wat

taek a wild guess lulz

In unit comparison by stats it's a little obvious, so I'm not going by that method. D:

Pent > Lucius > Canas > Erk > Serra > Priscilla > Athos > Nino > Renault

Athos would be higher if I could use him longer. :Psyduck:
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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I always give frying pans to female survivors in Dead Rising. It's really the only thing I'm confident they know how to use.
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Merk
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ザワザワ

I agree with Jedi, actually, at least on the point of joining time (Pent > Priscilla).

The way I see it, let's say you have unit A who joins during chapter 1, and unit B, who joins during chapter 10, and the game is 20 chapters long. Let's also say that by the time chapter 10 rolls around, unit A will be exactly similar to unit B (same level, same averages, same supports, same affinity, class, etc.)

During chapters 1-9, unit A has some usefulness value X. Unit B has usefulness = 0.

During chapters 10-20, unit A has some usefulness value Y, and unit B has some usefulness value Y.

X + Y > Y

Lott > Percival and such are exxagerations of the above statement. Lott isn't even all that useful before chapter 15, but Percival completely and thoroughly eclipses Lott in almost every way when he joins in. In this case, x !> 9000Y

Athos > Lucius in Chapter Light, but for nearly every single chapter before that, Lucius is your best offensive cannon and is helping you S-rank. 30X > Z.
~AKA SkyFireZero.
a r p s
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TwilightWarrior
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pent > priscilla

the only bad thing about pent is that louise is a meh unit.
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Nick
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Brit

Pent
Jan 30 2007, 08:57 AM
Pent > Lucius > Canas > Erk > Serra > Priscilla > Athos > Nino > Renault

Move Lucius down a place and Serra up a place and you have my list of units, in order of how much I use them.

@Twilight warrior: Not when you get the Louise-Pent-Hawkeye triangle of awesomeness going >D
OKs 4 lief
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C475_1337
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One serious d00d

Quote:
 
That alone shows how dumb your post is. Of course joining time matters! I don't care HOW good Pent is, he is completely worthless for the first half of the game because you can't use him. This is common sense, people.


No it isn’t. Joining earlier in and of itself is not an advantage. If Percival > Lott, Percival’s more likely to get a spot on the team once he comes along, and that’s what matters. Let’s see what else your logic tells us……

Ross > Cormag

Rebecca > Heath

Erk > Pent

And so forth and so on. All genuine rubbish. Erk having been around longer doesn’t provide any incentive to keep him around once Pent shows up and is better.

Quote:
 
I agree with Jedi, actually, at least on the point of joining time (Pent > Priscilla).

The way I see it, let's say you have unit A who joins during chapter 1, and unit B, who joins during chapter 10, and the game is 20 chapters long. Let's also say that by the time chapter 10 rolls around, unit A will be exactly similar to unit B (same level, same averages, same supports, same affinity, class, etc.)

During chapters 1-9, unit A has some usefulness value X. Unit B has usefulness = 0.

During chapters 10-20, unit A has some usefulness value Y, and unit B has some usefulness value Y.

X + Y > Y

Lott > Percival and such are exxagerations of the above statement. Lott isn't even all that useful before chapter 15, but Percival completely and thoroughly eclipses Lott in almost every way when he joins in. In this case, x !> 9000Y

Athos > Lucius in Chapter Light, but for nearly every single chapter before that, Lucius is your best offensive cannon and is helping you S-rank. 30X > Z.


It’s not as clear-cut as picking between one of two units and using them for as long as they’re available. The unit that’s better for the time that both are around is the one that’s more likely to actually be used. You won’t use Unit A(who joins in Chapter 1) at all if you don’t plan on keeping him for the entire game; if Unit B > Unit A as soon as Unit B joins, you’d be better off using Unit B.

The misconception you two (Jedi and Sine) have is that having less units = a bad thing. It doesn’t. An 8-unit team is no weaker than a 12-unit team once you get very far into the game at all; the 8-man team has less units to work with, but at the same time, its units are all at higher levels as each is getting a bigger cut of the Exp.

Which is another advantage of Pent. Party size is expanding around the time that he joins, so he can usually be fit into a team without kicking anyone else off. A unit that comes at pretty much no cost, as opposed to unpromoted units taking Exp away from other unpromoted units and needing a promo item.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Michael
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JediSSJ

CATS
Jan 30 2007, 02:05 PM
Quote:
 
That alone shows how dumb your post is. Of course joining time matters! I don't care HOW good Pent is, he is completely worthless for the first half of the game because you can't use him. This is common sense, people.


No it isn’t. Joining earlier in and of itself is not an advantage. If Percival > Lott, Percival’s more likely to get a spot on the team once he comes along, and that’s what matters. Let’s see what else your logic tells us……

Ross > Cormag

Rebecca > Heath

Erk > Pent

And so forth and so on. All genuine rubbish. Erk having been around longer doesn’t provide any incentive to keep him around once Pent shows up and is better.

-_-

Which is why I keep pointing out that it is just a factor, not the end-all. By my logic, joining time is an advantage that Ross, Rebecca, and Erk all have over Cormag, Heath, and Pent. It doesn't necessarily mean one > the other; only that it is one point in favor of them.

If we're discussing just ending stats, then alright. But if we are discussing overall use throughout the game, then joining time is clearly a factor. Sure, a unit like Pent has enough advantage over a unit like Erk that Erk's joining time is not nearly enough to overcome Pent's advantages.

Quote:
 
The unit that’s better for the time that both are around is the one that’s more likely to actually be used. You won’t use Unit A(who joins in Chapter 1) at all if you don’t plan on keeping him for the entire game; if Unit B > Unit A as soon as Unit B joins, you’d be better off using Unit B.

Of course, that's only if you plan on using only one of the units. Such as how Pent replaces Erk -being the same type of unit, only better. However, your argument falls apart if you use both units. In that case, the unit who is with you longer has an advantage in terms of usefulness.

Quote:
 
The misconception you two (Jedi and Sine) have is that having less units = a bad thing. It doesn’t. An 8-unit team is no weaker than a 12-unit team once you get very far into the game at all;

And the misconception you have is that more units = a bad thing. As there is more than enough EXP available in FE7, a larger team (to a point) will end up stronger. 12 20/20 units are stronger than 8 20/20 units.

Anyways, I'm working under the assumption that we're using both Priscilla and Pent, as they are both great units. As such, the fact that Priscilla joins earlier is an advantage for her, no matter how much you cry about it. Now, I am not saying that is enough to make her the better unit! I'm just saying it's an advantage. I hope you can at least see that.
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Quote:
 
Michael says:
-So....when worse comes to worse, how should I write -BlackLion out of the RP?
Psio says:
-eaten by a lion
Psio says:
-whle in a car
Michael says:
-hmmmm...fittting
Psio says:
-and the lion has a ">:3" face
Psio says:
-and says "rawr"
Michael says:
-....so I should sick Kovu after him?
Rock says:
-yes
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Hakado
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The Card Master

Priscilla's earlier joining does little, as Serra will have a level lead, and as such, there's no incentive to drop Serra and use Prissy.
Now, if Prissy>Serra, you'd have a point, but luckily, this isnt so.

Joining earlier while having good end-game stats in the end is nice, but not when your competition beats you out >_>
Previously known as: Serra, Hakato, Hakado, Dorgie Poo, Pearl Fey, Kallen and Sailor Moon

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msn
 
Jordan says:
NO. I'M A WOMAN. I'M NEVER SATISFIED

Weird as fuck, isnt he?
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Michael
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JediSSJ

SirHakado
Jan 30 2007, 03:45 PM
Priscilla's earlier joining does little, as Serra will have a level lead, and as such, there's no incentive to drop Serra and use Prissy.
Now, if Prissy>Serra, you'd have a point, but luckily, this isnt so.

Joining earlier while having good end-game stats in the end is nice, but not when your competition beats you out >_>

Ah, but Prissy is > Serra. And Serra only joins how many Chapters before Priscilla? Sure you CAN load Lyn's mode (if you have a save for it available), but even Lyn's mode won't get you very many levels. Plus there is plenty of time before you get a Guiding Ring, so you can easily raise up either in time. This is an example where Serra's joining time advantage is too small to make much difference. Prissy has more Mag and greater MOV.



Though, really, you can easily use two healers for the whole game.
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Super Smash Bros Brawl Friend Code: 0989 1408 5291

Quote:
 
Michael says:
-So....when worse comes to worse, how should I write -BlackLion out of the RP?
Psio says:
-eaten by a lion
Psio says:
-whle in a car
Michael says:
-hmmmm...fittting
Psio says:
-and the lion has a ">:3" face
Psio says:
-and says "rawr"
Michael says:
-....so I should sick Kovu after him?
Rock says:
-yes
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