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Magic users!; ((Because this place needs moar debaet))
Topic Started: Jan 29 2007, 08:10 PM (1,630 Views)
Hakado
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The Card Master

Using two healers detracts from the Exp for both em, making em level up and promote so much slower. Since healing is their main source of Exp before promoting, and other staves arent exactly common, this is hardly wise, since promoting your healers early is indeed in your best interest, unless you'd want two units that are total combat liabilities?

And since Lyn's mode ranking dont matter for ranking the main mode, Serra can indeed have a good, solid level lead, which makes up for Prissies bonusses(mounted, better weapon after promo, since Serra will win in stats thanks to the level lead). Serra's only real negative is her slow as fuck supports.
Previously known as: Serra, Hakato, Hakado, Dorgie Poo, Pearl Fey, Kallen and Sailor Moon

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HakaDSie>Kovutachi

msn
 
Jordan says:
NO. I'M A WOMAN. I'M NEVER SATISFIED

Weird as fuck, isnt he?
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Michael
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JediSSJ

Only if you abuse on Lyn's mode and happen to still have a save slot with Lyn's mode data. I haven't bothered keeping Lyn's data around for a long time.

Besides which, if you don't care about Ranking on Lyn's mode, why would you care on any other? If you do care about Ranking, then you would do it on all modes.
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Michael says:
-So....when worse comes to worse, how should I write -BlackLion out of the RP?
Psio says:
-eaten by a lion
Psio says:
-whle in a car
Michael says:
-hmmmm...fittting
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-and the lion has a ">:3" face
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-and says "rawr"
Michael says:
-....so I should sick Kovu after him?
Rock says:
-yes
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C475_1337
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One serious d00d

Quote:
 
If we're discussing just ending stats, then alright. But if we are discussing overall use throughout the game, then joining time is clearly a factor. Sure, a unit like Pent has enough advantage over a unit like Erk that Erk's joining time is not nearly enough to overcome Pent's advantages.


List Pent’s advantages over Erk.

Quote:
 
Of course, that's only if you plan on using only one of the units. Such as how Pent replaces Erk -being the same type of unit, only better. However, your argument falls apart if you use both units. In that case, the unit who is with you longer has an advantage in terms of usefulness.


No it doesn’t. If you play both Erk and Pent, you get an Erk to use during those early chapters, but your other units also get less Exp and you have to use another promo item. Not clearly beneficial overall.

Quote:
 
And the misconception you have is that more units = a bad thing.


You misunderstand entirely. The fact of the matter is that neither one nor the other is better; therefore, a unit making the team size one unit bigger for a certain amount of time is not clearly helping you overall.

Quote:
 
As there is more than enough EXP available in FE7, a larger team (to a point) will end up stronger. 12 20/20 units are stronger than 8 20/20 units.


If 20/20 was a feasible endgame level, you’d be right. However, it isn’t.

Quote:
 
Anyways, I'm working under the assumption that we're using both Priscilla and Pent, as they are both great units. As such, the fact that Priscilla joins earlier is an advantage for her, no matter how much you cry about it. Now, I am not saying that is enough to make her the better unit! I'm just saying it's an advantage. I hope you can at least see that.


I see what you’re saying. And, unless me and you are weighing units by different standards here, then what you’re saying is wrong.

You don’t even give any reasons why your position is correct, you just keep insisting “the fact that Priscilla joins earlier is an advantage.” I’m not convinced. I myself could insist that Renault is the best Magic User evar, but if I don’t back it up, who caers.

Quote:
 
Prissy has more Mag and greater MOV.


More Mag doesn’t matter nearly as much when both are healers.

Quote:
 
Only if you abuse on Lyn's mode and happen to still have a save slot with Lyn's mode data. I haven't bothered keeping Lyn's data around for a long time.


If you want to get 19xx in Hector’s Mode, you’ll have to sit around abusing Nils to LvL 7 for a while. Serra can also be leveling during that time; if I have to waste turns, I’m going to get the most I can out of them.

Quote:
 
Besides which, if you don't care about Ranking on Lyn's mode, why would you care on any other? If you do care about Ranking, then you would do it on all modes.


Doesn’t matter. Ranked or Nonranked, once the main story begins Priscilla has no way to catch up with Serra until she promotes.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

Joining earlier isn't an advantage in a direct comparison between the two; in that case, joining level and statistics at the joining chapter for the unit joining later are what's considered.

However, joining earlier helps the team as a whole because that unit is helping the team longer. You need to assume both units are used in a comparison because there's no point to comparing the two if one unit is undeniably not being used; thusly, Priscilla is being used from the moment she joins to the moment when the games ends. She's aiding the team by providing a second healer, even if the statement that she's the inferior healer is correct; even if we assume Serra does better, Priscilla still does better than Pent because Pent isn't there to help the team with his staves.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
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when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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C475_1337
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One serious d00d

Quote:
 
No it doesn’t. If you play both Erk and Pent, you get an Erk to use during those early chapters, but your other units also get less Exp and you have to use another promo item. Not clearly beneficial overall.


^^^
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Psiwri
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Too Many Words

I'm going to say Pent > Canas > Serra > Priscilla > Lucius > Erk

and not back it up with anything.

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Merk
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ザワザワ

Quote:
 
It’s not as clear-cut as picking between one of two units and using them for as long as they’re available. The unit that’s better for the time that both are around is the one that’s more likely to actually be used. You won’t use Unit A(who joins in Chapter 1) at all if you don’t plan on keeping him for the entire game; if Unit B > Unit A as soon as Unit B joins, you’d be better off using Unit B.

In Priscilla's case, if you're using her, you're not using Serra, and you for sure need a healer. Thus, she'd be used.

If Unit A's being used, then if Unit A has 7000 usefulness points for when unit B does not exist, and then unit B has 1 usefulness point more than A after they both exist, then unit A wins.

FE6 Marcus in Hard Mode has usefulness during the first few chapters and then is obliterated by the other paladins thereafter, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be played during those chapters.

Quote:
 
The misconception you two (Jedi and Sine) have is that having less units = a bad thing. It doesn’t. An 8-unit team is no weaker than a 12-unit team once you get very far into the game at all; the 8-man team has less units to work with, but at the same time, its units are all at higher levels as each is getting a bigger cut of the Exp.

Agreed, but I don't see how I've implied otherwise.
~AKA SkyFireZero.
a r p s
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Kovu
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Zidane was always entitled to 12 MOV!

Is this topic for:
- usefulness?
- statistics?
or
- general likability?

I have three very different lists, and no Nino doesn't top all three.

~ Kovu
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C475_1337
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One serious d00d

Quote:
 
In Priscilla's case, if you're using her, you're not using Serra, and you for sure need a healer. Thus, she'd be used.


Not necessarily. There’s no problem with two healers in HM.

Quote:
 
If Unit A's being used, then if Unit A has 7000 usefulness points for when unit B does not exist, and then unit B has 1 usefulness point more than A after they both exist, then unit A wins.

FE6 Marcus in Hard Mode has usefulness during the first few chapters and then is obliterated by the other paladins thereafter, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be played during those chapters.


Yeah, if someone is excelling for a certain section, that’s worth mentioning. It doesn’t happen here, though.

Quote:
 
Agreed, but I don't see how I've implied otherwise.


By awarding extra points to a unit simply for joining earlier. In Chapter 16, yes, Erk is there and Pent is not; no, that is not necessarily beneficial to the team. It’s beneficial to Erk, no doubt, but Erk is not the focus of the game.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

Kobu
Jan 30 2007, 06:14 PM
Is this topic for:
- usefulness?
- statistics?
or
- general likability?

I have three very different lists, and no Nino doesn't top all three.

~ Kovu

Whichever you want ti to be, really. The discussion CATS and co. are having right now is more geared toward the first two than the latter, but if you just like Nino for whatever reason and throw her on top, I'm not gonna eat you.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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Merk
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ザワザワ

Quote:
 
By awarding extra points to a unit simply for joining earlier. In Chapter 16, yes, Erk is there and Pent is not; no, that is not necessarily beneficial to the team. It’s beneficial to Erk, no doubt, but Erk is not the focus of the game.

Hmm. I see joining time as a separate advantage and experience competition as a separate disadvantage, whereas you seem to join the two together as a disadvantage overall.

Experience competition brings Erk down since he's not very vital to the early-game and more important units need experience. However, for a unit like Clarine, who is your best healer by a good margin, the fact that she exists for some amount of chapters and is healing during that time is an advantage over, say, Percival.
~AKA SkyFireZero.
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

CATS
Jan 30 2007, 05:12 PM
Quote:
 
No it doesn’t. If you play both Erk and Pent, you get an Erk to use during those early chapters, but your other units also get less Exp and you have to use another promo item. Not clearly beneficial overall.


^^^

Not if this unit pulls from a separate Exp pool. Priscilla competes with Serra for Exp if they're played together; if Erk lowering the team's level a little bit hurts enough to offset the bonus you get from playing him in addition to the others, then the healers cutting into each other's Exp should nigh-condemn each other. Thus, I'd assume the healers are played individually, because I'm unconvinced that two healers aren't shooting each other for Exp (nevermind the irony in that).

If they are individually played, Priscilla joining earlier helps her in comparison to Pent, because she provides a unique and vital function without interfering with the team's Exp, thus bringing quite a nice bit of earlygame healer value to the table against Pent. The same can be said of Serra against Pent.

Note that I'm not advocating that either healer > Pent, simply trying to clarify on how the joining time is or at least can be an advantage for Priscilla.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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C475_1337
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One serious d00d

Quote:
 
However, for a unit like Clarine, who is your best healer by a good margin, the fact that she exists for some amount of chapters and is healing during that time is an advantage over, say, Percival.


Oh, sure. That’s the advantage she gets from being the best healer.

Quote:
 
Not if this unit pulls from a separate Exp pool. Priscilla competes with Serra for Exp if they're played together; if Erk lowering the team's level a little bit hurts enough to offset the bonus you get from playing him in addition to the others, then the healers cutting into each other's Exp should nigh-condemn each other. Thus, I'd assume the healers are played individually, because I'm unconvinced that two healers aren't shooting each other for Exp (nevermind the irony in that).

If they are individually played, Priscilla joining earlier helps her in comparison to Pent, because she provides a unique and vital function without interfering with the team's Exp, thus bringing quite a nice bit of earlygame healer value to the table against Pent. The same can be said of Serra against Pent.

Note that I'm not advocating that either healer > Pent, simply trying to clarify on how the joining time is or at least can be an advantage for Priscilla.


Eh, that works for Serra much better than Priscilla, as Serra’s the best healer. I don’t think it’s saving either one of them, though; since Pent has A Staves, if you must pick between him and your healer when he comes in, the healer is going to go first.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

...Did I help explain that a bit better? >_>
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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C475_1337
Member Avatar
One serious d00d

Yeah, Healers can do that.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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