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| I hate Raven. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 1 2007, 05:39 PM (1,139 Views) | |
| Jeffer | Mar 4 2007, 05:26 PM Post #31 |
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Which means Guy isn't better! |
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Belgium, being superior to the Netherlands since the dawn of time.~~ [size=1]Thanks to Tilty for the wonderful avatar.[/size] | |
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| Askio | Mar 4 2007, 05:28 PM Post #32 |
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Beginning and End
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Guy and Raven can take it. Use Karel for a sword user, and if you dont have him yet, dont got running at a guy with Luna. Its stupidity unless its like Oswin or something. |
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| Reaver | Mar 4 2007, 05:44 PM Post #33 |
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Troll
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I disagree with that. Raven comes a few chapters later at level 5. Both get hard mode bonuses, so we'll add +2 to all of their averages to compensate for that. Let's check our bases! Guy 3/0: HP: 23 STR: 8 SKL: 13 SPD: 13 DEF: 7 RES: 2 LUK: 7 Raven 5/0: HP: 27 STR: 10 SKL: 13 SPD: 15 DEF: 7 RES: 3 LUK: 4 Raven and Guy tie for DEF, but Raven has +4 HP on Guy, along with +2 STR, +2 SPD, and +1 RES. These are countered by +3 LUK, yay! Raven has guy in the bases by a solid +6 stats. Let's check growths to get an idea of their overall standing. Guy: HP: 75% STR: 30% SKL: 50% SPD: 70% DEF: 15% RES: 25% LUK: 45% Total: 310% Raven: HP: 85% STR: 55% SKL: 40% SPD: 45% DEF: 25% RES: 15% LUK: 35% Total: 300% Guy has 10% more growths, which seems like a lot until you check his SPD growth. 70% is overkill, (36 x .7 = 25.2) Guy can be expected to gain 25.2 SPD from his growth, he caps at 30. His base is 13. Overkill! 60% is still too much, giving him about 21.6 SPD from level ups leaving him with 34.6 SPD on average. 50% still puts Guy over his cap. My point? Guy's lead is nothing because his is odd growths and growth distribution. Let's talk usefulness now. Guy comes with the killing edge, which is a giant boon for fighting enemies and allows Guy to critical early on and take down enemies that are a little harder to take out normally. Raven comes 2-3 chapters later (3 for HHM) two levels higher with better bases. Raven's excellent bases allow him to compete without any problems early on and his STR allows him to deal damage. Raven also brings in Lucius, where Guy doesn't recruit anyone! Guy's STR, without his massive CRT, cripples him severely until he gets his +15% from promotion and any level of support. Guy's STR stops being a problem after a support or two and promotion, but it's certainly nothing next to Raven, who will double just as consistenly for more damage. More on usefulness: Promotion. Raven and Guy both take a Hero's Crest to promote, yet Raven is truly more deserving. Raven gains axes, which goes okay with his 9 CON and allows him to boost his SR more and more. Guy gains +15% critical to boost his STR. However, Raven's axes allow him to take WTA or tie it with more enemies, Guy is locked to swords and swords alone. Also, Raven's ability to manipulate the triangle puts his AVD, HIT, STR, and DEF to boost his effect in fighting. Guy can't do that. Finally, let's see our finished projects! Raven 20/20***: HP: 57.8* STR: 24.5** SKL: 26.4 SPD: 25.9 DEF: 15.5 RES: 8.1 LUK: 13.9 CON: 9 [size=0]*(34 x .85) + 25 = 59.9. Raven should max. **(34 x .55) + 8 = 25.7. Raven should max. *** Al Calculations without Hard Mode Bonuses[/size] Guy 20/20***: HP: 53.0 STR: 18.8 SKL: 27.7* SPD: 29.9** DEF: 12.4 RES: 10.0 LUK: 21.2 CON: 6 [size=0]*(36 x .5) = 11 = 29. Guy should max exactly. **(36 x .7) + 11 = 35.7, Guy should max. *** All Calculations without Hard Mode Bonuses[/size] I trust you can make the same infrences that I did. Raven's CON allows him to boost his STR without a cut to his SPD, diminishing Guy's SPD advantage. Guy's LUK and Raven's STR are the only major victories, but I would call Raven's STR much more imporant than Guy's LUK. |
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| Nick | Mar 4 2007, 05:47 PM Post #34 |
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Brit
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Yeah, Bosco, you're really not helping your case here. |
| OKs 4 lief | |
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| Bosceon | Mar 4 2007, 05:55 PM Post #35 |
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姚明
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So are you saying any unit that gets easily owned by magic is good? He may be better at taking brute strength but Guy is more well-rounded imo. He's only a few DEF points under Raven, and has a lot better RES. Guy has better spd, critical rate, MUCH better luk, and better SKL. So basicly guy wins most of everything.
But you said it yourself: Guy was meant to use criticals to improve his strength. If you add his critical as a swordmaster with Wo Dao or Killing Edge his overall Str will be far beyond Ravens. Even if Raven was using a Killing Edge or such. |
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| C475_1337 | Mar 4 2007, 06:17 PM Post #36 |
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One serious d00d
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Why did you change my words? Anyway. Total damage doesn’t matter. What matters is whether or not the enemy dies. No unpromoted enemy has 45 or more Hp, so Oswin is killing with 100% consistency. Guy needs at least one Critical, and therefore he is not killing with 100% consistency. That’s why Guy’s offense is not good. Why bother to hope for a Critical when someone like Raven doesn’t need one to begin with?
I have no respect at all for a unit that needs Killer Weaponry to be worth anything on the attack. Anyone becomes a powerful attacker if given unrestricted use of Killer and/or Silver Weapons.
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Bosceon | Mar 4 2007, 06:23 PM Post #37 |
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姚明
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Ppl were making fun of me for not proving it. :DD:D:D::D:DDD:: |
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| Psiwri | Mar 4 2007, 06:26 PM Post #38 |
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Too Many Words
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2 points on defense is a few while two points in res is "a lot better" eh? |
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| Feez | Mar 4 2007, 06:42 PM Post #39 |
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Ebullient Future
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Raven and Guy both suck. |
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| Bosceon | Mar 4 2007, 07:13 PM Post #40 |
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姚明
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I was afraid somebody was going to notice that.
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| Reaver | Mar 4 2007, 07:36 PM Post #41 |
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Troll
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I believe I said that, but did I voice my opinion on the matter? No, I merely reported why Guy's STR doesn't need to be excellent for him to be effective. My opinion on the matter stands for Raven. If Guy is better than Raven 2/7 times in damage output, Raven is significantly better. Also, because Raven usually hits 25 STR and can use axes without a giant loss of SPD, puts much more out. Raven can have a spd of 24-25 (based on the averages) and have a MT of 33. 66 damage overall with an Iron weapon sure beats Guy's (assuming he gets 19 STR) Guaranteed 50 with an Iron Weapon. If Guy criticals 2/7 times, he still may not be better. Because Guy relies on critical, every defense point is three times as important to Guy as it is to Raven. Assuming Raven and Guy go to attack an enemy with 20 DEF, Raven deals 13 per strike and Guy deals 15 per critical. Of course, since his STR is 18.8 on average, if he has 18 STR he's dealing 12 damage with a critical. Raven is better than Guy, in short, because his MT is consistently good, doesn't rely on a chance, and is less affected by DEF. Not necessarily, but Melee users far outnumber magic users. Raven, defensively, is one point better overall. He loses by 1.9 in RES and wins by 3.1 in DEF on average. He's more under in DEF and less above than Raven. Better speed is useless when it's overkill, especially when Raven consistenly doubles, only with more STR. Guy's LUK and SKL are better, granted, but Raven in turn has HP, DEF, STR, and CON to make up for it. |
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| Inui | Mar 5 2007, 06:15 PM Post #42 |
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Power of Flower
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Congratulations on thinking I'm bad at Fire Emblem when I'm clearly one of the best in the world, and also on missing the part where I said I was complaining about the RES just to complain about it. Raven was at full HP. ![]() CATS, you seriously underrate Guy. I admit Raven is amazing. I hate him, but he's good. But saying Guy is bad??? You're biased as hell or just overrating Raven terribly, which is also bias. |
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| C475_1337 | Mar 5 2007, 07:11 PM Post #43 |
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One serious d00d
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I don't remember saying Guy is bad--I do remember saying that he's not necessarily good, either. I'd lean more towards him being bad than good, though. As I've said already, his flaws are more numerous than his strong points(the latter being pretty much limited to his high Spd). |
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Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish. --- Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day. --- SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia. | |
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| Inui | Mar 6 2007, 02:14 PM Post #44 |
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Power of Flower
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Flaws? His STR isn't even bad. 20-21 is fine when he's got an offensive affinity and a 15% critical bonus, which turns into 20% after getting an S rank in swords. DEF? High HP and high Evd is a nice combination to cancel out his mediocre DEF. Next flaw is...? He's far more "good" than "bad." |
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| Jeffer | Mar 6 2007, 03:38 PM Post #45 |
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After about a million crazy Japanese gamers, sure. |
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Belgium, being superior to the Netherlands since the dawn of time.~~ [size=1]Thanks to Tilty for the wonderful avatar.[/size] | |
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