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Abortion; renewed fervor for the debate forum ftw
Topic Started: Jun 12 2007, 02:27 PM (2,206 Views)
C475_1337
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One serious d00d

Reaver
Jun 30 2007, 11:02 AM
STARSHOOP WOOPER
Jun 30 2007, 11:10 AM
Crysta
Jun 29 2007, 12:06 PM
And... I reply with the same thing. You're not killing a person. :Psyduck:

Newborn infants aren't any better off than a fetus. The only real difference is that they're a bit bigger. Should the mother then be allowed to change her mind at the last moment, and kill the infant a few minutes after it is born?

The other difference is that an infant can maintain homeostatis and a fetus can't. Homeostasis, the regulation of one's internal processes, is a required function for life. You also forget abortions are illegal in the third trimester where the fetus begins to take over homeostasis for itself...

What the hell does that have to do with anything at all? "Homeostasis" or not, the organism in question is still going to become a full-fledged, living, breathing, eating, talking human being. Being in the earliest stage of human development does not change the fact that the fetus is indeed a homo sapiens.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Soja
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves

Homeostasis is something exclusive to warm-blooded creatures. That means 70% of the animal kingdom is dead by Reaver's definition.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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How to Get Banned From FEFF
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3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 again, getting suspended for a few days.
5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged.
6. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
7. Do all this in the course of a month.
8. ????
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Reaver
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Soja
Jul 12 2007, 12:20 AM
Homeostasis is something exclusive to warm-blooded creatures. That means 70% of the animal kingdom is dead by Reaver's definition.

All creatures maintain stable conditions in one way or another, or die. Anaerobic bacterium, for example, avoid oxygen or die. Simple as that. Snakes sleep under rocks so they don't overheat in the sun, they also only live in warm places because otherwise they can't maintain stable body conditions... It's a requirement for living, check any standard biology textbook.

CATS
 
What the hell does that have to do with anything at all? "Homeostasis" or not, the organism in question is still going to become a full-fledged, living, breathing, eating, talking human being. Being in the earliest stage of human development does not change the fact that the fetus is indeed a homo sapiens.
It's not alive. This fact ALONE makes me say that having an abortion if a baby cannot be raised in the circumstanes is acceptable. If the baby was alive inside the womb, like a joey (baby kangaroo) in it's mother's pouch, then I would be against abortions. Being at the earliest stages of human development doesn't make you human, seeing as a zygote exists in all sexual reproduction. The earliest stages of being human doesn't make you human, it means you're on the road to becoming human. A caterpillar/cocoon is not a butterfly.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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C475_1337
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Quote:
 
It's not alive. This fact ALONE makes me say that having an abortion if a baby cannot be raised in the circumstanes is acceptable. If the baby was alive inside the womb, like a joey (baby kangaroo) in it's mother's pouch, then I would be against abortions. Being at the earliest stages of human development doesn't make you human, seeing as a zygote exists in all sexual reproduction. The earliest stages of being human doesn't make you human, it means you're on the road to becoming human. A caterpillar/cocoon is not a butterfly.


No, that fetus is still the same species. I'm very sure of this. There is no Homo Fetus classification.

And not alive? Okay, whatever, say that if you want; it doesn't matter. Alive or not, the fetus will be a person, will it not? So if you kill it, you are preventing a human life from being lived. This is extremely basic and elementary logic. If the fetus is born and raised, that's a human life lived. If it's killed before it can even be born, that life is never lived out.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Yzarc
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Coxian

C475_1337
Jul 11 2007, 11:39 PM
Alive or not, the fetus will be a person, will it not? So if you kill it, you are preventing a human life from being lived. This is extremely basic and elementary logic. If the fetus is born and raised, that's a human life lived. If it's killed before it can even be born, that life is never lived out.

Abstinence also prevents a potential for life. The sperm inside of you could be a human, right? By not having sex right now, you are are preventing a human life from being lived. This is extremely basic and elementary logic.
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Kombat_911
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Yzarc Drowsnam
Jul 12 2007, 04:46 AM
C475_1337
Jul 11 2007, 11:39 PM
Alive or not, the fetus will be a person, will it not?  So if you kill it, you are preventing a human life from being lived.  This is extremely basic and elementary logic.  If the fetus is born and raised, that's a human life lived.  If it's killed before it can even be born, that life is never lived out.

Abstinence also prevents a potential for life. The sperm inside of you could be a human, right? By not having sex right now, you are are preventing a human life from being lived. This is extremely basic and elementary logic.

yea, and as far as i know sperm only lives for like 24 hours. so when u obstain from sex, you not only kill the potential to have children by the millions, but you could also gives yourself a nasty case of vasocongestion aka blue balls
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Soja
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Reaver
Jul 11 2007, 11:30 PM
Soja
Jul 12 2007, 12:20 AM
Homeostasis is something exclusive to warm-blooded creatures. That means 70% of the animal kingdom is dead by Reaver's definition.

All creatures maintain stable conditions in one way or another, or die. Anaerobic bacterium, for example, avoid oxygen or die. Simple as that. Snakes sleep under rocks so they don't overheat in the sun, they also only live in warm places because otherwise they can't maintain stable body conditions... It's a requirement for living, check any standard biology textbook.

This I know. But you were saying homeostasis, which only mammalians and avians are capable of. Reptilians, amphibians, fish, arthropods, and arachnids are all reliant on their surroundings to maintain their internal functions, much like an unborn child is dependent on its womb. Both are very much alive.

If you're going to use an argument for abortion, use the one that you're okay with terminating a life in the earliest stages of its development for the detrimental effects its birth might have on the mother. But don't say it's not alive.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic
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Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9 & 10, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09 & 10, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover

How to Get Banned From FEFF
1. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to verbally warn you.
2. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to actually warn you.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 again, getting suspended for a few days.
5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged.
6. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
7. Do all this in the course of a month.
8. ????
9. PROFIT!!!

Congratulations! You've been banned from FEFF!
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Reaver
Troll

Soja
Jul 12 2007, 04:51 AM
This I know. But you were saying homeostasis, which only mammalians and avians are capable of. Reptilians, amphibians, fish, arthropods, and arachnids are all reliant on their surroundings to maintain their internal functions, much like an unborn child is dependent on its womb. Both are very much alive.

Odd, I'm pretty sure that repltiles. amphibians, fish, and arthropods have other internal functions they regulate (hello digestion) that aren't body temperature. And they do maintain stable internal conditions, the very definition of homeostasis, by hiding under rocks, for example, when they get too hot in the sun. That's homeostasis, they regulate stable internal conditions in one way or another. Fetuses, however, cannot regulate a single internal function.

As for the alive bit, if a fetus was alive then it would be killing to aid the life of another. Since it's not killing because a fetus isn't alive in the earliest stages...

CATS
 
No, that fetus is still the same species. I'm very sure of this. There is no Homo Fetus classification.

And not alive? Okay, whatever, say that if you want; it doesn't matter. Alive or not, the fetus will be a person, will it not? So if you kill it, you are preventing a human life from being lived. This is extremely basic and elementary logic. If the fetus is born and raised, that's a human life lived. If it's killed before it can even be born, that life is never lived out.
Yes, a fetus will be a person. No, a fetus is not alive. Hypothetically with the logic that you're preventing a human from living, that means that every day people commit this crime by not impregnating women. Just because it has the potential to be live doesn't mean that it is life and should be treated as such.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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C475_1337
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Quote:
 
Abstinence also prevents a potential for life. The sperm inside of you could be a human, right? By not having sex right now, you are are preventing a human life from being lived. This is extremely basic and elementary logic.


No. I didn't say "could be." I said "will be." There's quite a difference. Even when you have sex, only one sperm out of tens of thousands or something reaches the egg, so sperm most definitely does not fall into the same category as a fetus.

Quote:
 
Yes, a fetus will be a person. No, a fetus is not alive. Hypothetically with the logic that you're preventing a human from living, that means that every day people commit this crime by not impregnating women. Just because it has the potential to be live doesn't mean that it is life and should be treated as such.


Again, the difference between sperm and a fetus is that while sperm has the potential, the fetus has already realized said potential. There is no doubt of what will happen to that fetus should it not be destroyed.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Reaver
Troll

CATS
 
Again, the difference between sperm and a fetus is that while sperm has the potential, the fetus has already realized said potential. There is no doubt of what will happen to that fetus should it not be destroyed.
The difference between a fetus and a human is that while a fetus has reached the potential, the human has already gone through the development with this potential. I'll describe it the same way I did earlier, a caterpillar is not a butterfly even if there is no doubt that is what caterpillars become.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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C475_1337
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Quote:
 
The difference between a fetus and a human is that while a fetus has reached the potential, the human has already gone through the development with this potential.


And where is the justification for not even allowing the development to begin in the first place?
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Reaver
Troll

CATS
 
And where is the justification for not even allowing the development to begin in the first place?
If a woman cannot financially support herself and a baby because of work issues or a deadbeat dad, significant medical issues, and sparing people from psychological trauma.

Those are pretty solid reasons as to stopping development.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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C475_1337
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One serious d00d

There you go. That's a much more convincing argument than talking about how a fetus isn't alive or some shit like that.

If a woman cannot financially support herself, she's going to snuff out a life just so hers won't be as hard? Doesn't sound justified to me.

What are you talking about with psychological trauma? What's a situation where you know some kind of "psychological trauma" would happen?

If the woman is a rape victim or has a chance of dying in childbirth or somesuch, then yeah, those can possibly justify abortion. That's about where I draw the line, though.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Reaver
Troll

C475_1337
Jul 12 2007, 01:10 PM
There you go. That's a much more convincing argument than talking about how a fetus isn't alive or some shit like that.

If a fetus was alive I would probably be on the opposite side of the spectrum, it's an important part of the argument.

CATS
 
If a woman cannot financially support herself, she's going to snuff out a life just so hers won't be as hard?  Doesn't sound justified to me.
"Snuff out a life" is different from "snuff out a potential life".

CATS
 
What are you talking about with psychological trauma?  What's a situation where you know some kind of "psychological trauma" would happen?
High school is a tough place and teenagers, believe it or not, oftentimes do malicious things.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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C475_1337
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Quote:
 
If a fetus was alive I would probably be on the opposite side of the spectrum, it's an important part of the argument.


No, I really fail to see how a technicality like this means anything at all. What matters is whether or not that fetus is going to turn into a person, just like you or me.

Quote:
 
"Snuff out a life" is different from "snuff out a potential life".


I agree. However, this isn't a potential life we're talking about. Potential implies that the thing in question could happen. This, however, is something that will happen. Quite different.

Quote:
 
High school is a tough place and teenagers, believe it or not, oftentimes do malicious things.


Wow. I find this to be rather ridiculous. Are you saying people should assume their kid will be a loser/loner or something in high school?

Yeah, and btw, I'm in high school and I'd laugh my ass off at anyone who tried to tell me it's a tough place. Maybe in some towns, but not where I'm at. High school is pretty ballin' around these parts. Or has been for me atleast.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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