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Abortion; renewed fervor for the debate forum ftw
Topic Started: Jun 12 2007, 02:27 PM (2,205 Views)
Reaver
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CATS
 
No, I really fail to see how a technicality like this means anything at all. What matters is whether or not that fetus is going to turn into a person, just like you or me.
The fetus is going to turn into a person, just like a seed is going to turn into a tree. A seed is not a tree, a fetus is not a person. Even if it will become a person, it isn't a person in the womb.

CATS
 
I agree. However, this isn't a potential life we're talking about. Potential implies that the thing in question could happen. This, however, is something that will happen. Quite different.
It is a potential life because as of now it isn't alive and if you choose to stop that potential life from living via abortion for some reason. It could become living if another complication or an abortion doesn't happen.

CATS
 
Wow. I find this to be rather ridiculous. Are you saying people should assume their kid will be a loser/loner or something in high school?
High school can be a brutal place. Being the target of every rumor, being subject to all sorts of torments from many of your peers, and having to go through such social rejection at an age where kids begin to define themselves can really cause psychological trauma.

CATS
 
Yeah, and btw, I'm in high school and I'd laugh my ass off at anyone who tried to tell me it's a tough place. Maybe in some towns, but not where I'm at. High school is pretty ballin' around these parts. Or has been for me atleast.
Then you certainly know the kid everyone tools on, I'm pretty certain that kid is having the time of his life at high school.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
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Yzarc
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Coxian

CATS, Reaver is talking about the pregnant teenager in high school, not her child 16 years later.
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C475_1337
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Quote:
 
The fetus is going to turn into a person, just like a seed is going to turn into a tree. A seed is not a tree, a fetus is not a person. Even if it will become a person, it isn't a person in the womb.


How is preventing a life from being lived in the first place (a life that certainly will be lived without the abortion, btw) any better than ending a life that's only halfway done? This is the question I'd like answered. I don't care about whether it's alive or not.

Quote:
 
It is a potential life because as of now it isn't alive and if you choose to stop that potential life from living via abortion for some reason. It could become living if another complication or an abortion doesn't happen.


I completely fail to see your point here aswell. Do you or do you not agree that a fetus will indeed become a human being? I don't find your arguments as to why a fetus isn't "alive" to be very convincing at all, either, btw.

Quote:
 
High school can be a brutal place. Being the target of every rumor, being subject to all sorts of torments from many of your peers, and having to go through such social rejection at an age where kids begin to define themselves can really cause psychological trauma.


That's quite an extreme scenario you're describing, and not at all what usually happens. Even in such a case, that would be the consequences of the mother's actions. It seems to me like yet another situation where the mother kills off her kid because she thinks it'll make her life easier.

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Then you certainly know the kid everyone tools on, I'm pretty certain that kid is having the time of his life at high school.


Okay? What's your point?

Quote:
 
CATS, Reaver is talking about the pregnant teenager in high school, not her child 16 years later.


Yeah, I figured that after reading this most recent post...
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

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Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

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Reaver
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CATS
 
How is preventing a life from being lived in the first place (a life that certainly will be lived without the abortion, btw) any better than ending a life that's only halfway done?
One has lived, one has not. It's that simple.

CATS
 
I completely fail to see your point here aswell. Do you or do you not agree that a fetus will indeed become a human being? I don't find your arguments as to why a fetus isn't "alive" to be very convincing at all, either, btw.
A fetus will be human. WILL. However, it is not human yet, it's a fetus. A fetus isn't alive because it cannot carry out homeostasis, it is rooted in science and fact. (Also, when a fetus begins to take over it's internal functions in the third trimester abortions are illegal).

CATS
 
That's quite an extreme scenario you're describing, and not at all what usually happens. Even in such a case, that would be the consequences of the mother's actions. It seems to me like yet another situation where the mother kills off her kid because she thinks it'll make her life easier.
You cannot kill what isn't alive. I don't think abortions should be done if the woman/man can fully support the child themselves without any other consequences, but if having the child will have a damaging consequences to the mother or child then the fetus should be aborted. You also don't know the power of your words just yet.

CATS
 
Okay? What's your point?
Your experience of high school =/= the only experience of high school. There are kids who go through rough times at high school, the traditional thought that nerds get the shit beaten out of them proves it.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
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C475_1337
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Quote:
 
One has lived, one has not. It's that simple.


Thanks, that doesn't answer my question at all. So, you are suggesting that it is acceptable to prevent a human life from even "beginning"(by your definition)?

Quote:
 
A fetus will be human. WILL. However, it is not human yet, it's a fetus. A fetus isn't alive because it cannot carry out homeostasis, it is rooted in science and fact. (Also, when a fetus begins to take over it's internal functions in the third trimester abortions are illegal).


Wow. I've specifically said I don't caer about the technicality of whether it's "alive" or not, and you answer me by talking about exactly that. Nice.

Quote:
 
You cannot kill what isn't alive. I don't think abortions should be done if the woman/man can fully support the child themselves without any other consequences, but if having the child will have a damaging consequences to the mother or child then the fetus should be aborted.


I don't care whether you call it killing or not. It doesn't matter what you call it. The point is that you're short-circuiting someone's life. Without the abortion that life certainly would have happened; this is a fact regardless of whether or not you think a fetus is "alive." Apparently you think that a fetus does indeed have some worth, because you think it's not acceptable to abort if the parents have plenty of moneyz and such. But then, you seem to suggest that said human life has less worth than the mother's opinion of her current situation, and it is acceptable to sacrifice that life so that the mother's own life will be more convenient.

Quote:
 
Your experience of high school =/= the only experience of high school. There are kids who go through rough times at high school, the traditional thought that nerds get the shit beaten out of them proves it.


Actually I've never heard of that happening where I live. Ever. Kids have gotten the shit beat out of them because of drug deals, but never just for being a "nerd." lol @ all the stereotypes, especially in all the high school movies.

Anyway. I ask yet again, what exactly is your point? You seem to enjoy focusing on the armpits and underbelly of the high school world for some reason. Are you getting at something here?
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Yzarc
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C475_1337
Jul 12 2007, 02:26 PM
Quote:
 
Your experience of high school =/= the only experience of high school. There are kids who go through rough times at high school, the traditional thought that nerds get the shit beaten out of them proves it.


Actually I've never heard of that happening where I live. Ever. Kids have gotten the shit beat out of them because of drug deals, but never just for being a "nerd." lol @ all the stereotypes, especially in all the high school movies.

Anyway. I ask yet again, what exactly is your point? You seem to enjoy focusing on the armpits and underbelly of the high school world for some reason. Are you getting at something here?

Let's not talk nerds, let's talk pregnant teenagers. I have seen pregnant girls at my school and you know how alienated they were from the rest of the school? Pretty significantly. It's damn hard to be taken seriously in high school if you're pregnant and the idea of a future, of going to college, becomes nearly obsolete.
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Reaver
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CATS
 
Thanks, that doesn't answer my question at all. So, you are suggesting that it is acceptable to prevent a human life from even "beginning"(by your definition)?
Yes. It's acceptable to stop life from happening at times.

CATS
 
Wow. I've specifically said I don't caer about the technicality of whether it's "alive" or not, and you answer me by talking about exactly that. Nice.
Killing a living being is different from aborting a fetus. The "technicality" of it being alive is applied to bacterium -> humans, chances are it's important.

CATS
 
I don't care whether you call it killing or not. It doesn't matter what you call it. The point is that you're short-circuiting someone's life. Without the abortion that life certainly would have happened; this is a fact regardless of whether or not you think a fetus is "alive." Apparently you think that a fetus does indeed have some worth, because you think it's not acceptable to abort if the parents have plenty of moneyz and such. But then, you seem to suggest that said human life has less worth than the mother's opinion of her current situation, and it is acceptable to sacrifice that life so that the mother's own life will be more convenient.
You're right, life would've happened if it continued. Does it mean that the fetus is alive and should be treated as such? No. Also, I don't like the idea of having an abortion simply because you don't want a child, but when one can limit the suffering, trauma, and troubles a woman has by aborting the fetus things change. I doubt anyone feels good about getting an abortion, but sometimes an abortion is the best choice for the mother.

CATS
 
Actually I've never heard of that happening where I live. Ever. Kids have gotten the shit beat out of them because of drug deals, but never just for being a "nerd." lol @ all the stereotypes, especially in all the high school movies.

Anyway. I ask yet again, what exactly is your point? You seem to enjoy focusing on the armpits and underbelly of the high school world for some reason. Are you getting at something here?
I'm hinting that high school students, and particularly teenagers, can be nasty people. I've heard about some pretty disgusting and awful things in my high school and I'm certain that this isn't just my high school. I'm getting at the idea that high school isn't amazing for everyone, I'm sure there are kids who loathe waking up and going to school in the morning.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
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C475_1337
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Yes. It's acceptable to stop life from happening at times.


If it's in the interest of preserving someone else's life (childbirth could possibly kill the mother), or perhaps when the mother had absolutely no control over the situation (rape), I see how this could possibly be justified. In most other scenarios, I do not.

Quote:
 
Killing a living being is different from aborting a fetus. The "technicality" of it being alive is applied to bacterium -> humans, chances are it's important.


And you're still talking about it. The consequences of the action is what matters.

Quote:
 
You're right, life would've happened if it continued. Does it mean that the fetus is alive and should be treated as such? No. Also, I don't like the idea of having an abortion simply because you don't want a child, but when one can limit the suffering, trauma, and troubles a woman has by aborting the fetus things change. I doubt anyone feels good about getting an abortion, but sometimes an abortion is the best choice for the mother.


Yeah, sometimes it is, and I've described the situations I feel are as such above. Your view includes a wider scope of situations. The problem I have right now is that you still seem to think that a fetus has some worth of its own. Otherwise you would not be opposed to affluent parents aborting just because they don't want to change diapers. However, you are apparently also assigning less worth to a fetus than the worth of human life. I don't understand the justification for such logic at all.

Quote:
 
I'm hinting that high school, and particularly teenagers, can be nasty people. I've heard about some pretty disgusting and awful things in my high school and I'm certain that this isn't just my high school. I'm getting at the idea that high school isn't amazing for everyone, I'm sure there are kids who loathe waking up and going to school in the morning.


Anyone can be nasty. Yes, some teenagers are assholes. Guess what? Some aren't, fancy that. Most that I know aren't, personally. I'm sure there are indeed kids who hate going to school because everyone picks on 'em, and I'm also pretty confident that they're in the minority. How is this relevant to the debaet at hand?

Quote:
 
Let's not talk nerds, let's talk pregnant teenagers. I have seen pregnant girls at my school and you know how alienated they were from the rest of the school? Pretty significantly. It's damn hard to be taken seriously in high school if you're pregnant and the idea of a future, of going to college, becomes nearly obsolete.


That's funny, because I've had the opposite experience down here. Several girls I know have gotten pregnant, one is in college now, and none of them went through the kind of social torture that Reaver describes. Yes, it was passed around that "so-and-so is pregnant"; no, they were not the butt of every joke, and they were not treated like lepers by everyone. The extreme situation you describe does not always happen.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Reaver
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CATS
 
If it's in the interest of preserving someone else's life (childbirth could possibly kill the mother), or perhaps when the mother had absolutely no control over the situation (rape), I see how this could possibly be justified. In most other scenarios, I do not.
I love how people say "rape", because they obviously assume that there was no choice in the matter. It is rape if any partner involved was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, despite if they made the choice to have sex. That's just a rant though, I think financial insecurity and trying to preserve one's sense of mind (by preventing trauma) should be added to your list.

CATS
 
And you're still talking about it. The consequences of the action is what matters.
Sparing a living being from trauma and financial catastrophe isn't worth more than the potential for life? Yes, you kill the potential for life but the only reason abortions are still available is that some good comes from ending the potential for life.

CATS
 
Yeah, sometimes it is, and I've described the situations I feel are as such above. Your view includes a wider scope of situations. The problem I have right now is that you still seem to think that a fetus has some worth of its own. Otherwise you would not be opposed to affluent parents aborting just because they don't want to change diapers. However, you are apparently also assigning less worth to a fetus than the worth of human life. I don't understand the justification for such logic at all.
A fetus has some worth, but the worth it has doesn't outweigh the potential benefits of the mother when it is eliminated. I feel "I don't want to change diapers!" is not enough of a benefit to cut-off what will be living.

CATS
 
Anyone can be nasty. Yes, some teenagers are assholes. Guess what? Some aren't, fancy that. Most that I know aren't, personally. I'm sure there are indeed kids who hate going to school because everyone picks on 'em, and I'm also pretty confident that they're in the minority. How is this relevant to the debaet at hand?
I posed a pregnant teen in high school as a situation where mental trauma would be a strong case to get an abortion. Depression is a common side-effect of teen pregnancies Source..

CATS
 
That's funny, because I've had the opposite experience down here. Several girls I know have gotten pregnant, one is in college now, and none of them went through the kind of social torture that Reaver describes. Yes, it was passed around that "so-and-so is pregnant"; no, they were not the butt of every joke, and they were not treated like lepers by everyone. The extreme situation you describe does not always happen.
The study I've shown depicts a different picture, that 27.6% of pregnant teenagers suffer depression (mental trauma). This depression isn't good, this depression is a mental affect of being pregnant as a teen and should warrant an abortion (plus birth defects are higher among teenage mothers vs. adult mothers).
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
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C475_1337
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There, you're making sense to me now. At this point the only question is merely what value you assign to the "potential of life," meaning the worth of the human life represented by the fetus. Obviously you assign less value to it than I do, and that's a purely subjective feeling that can't rly be debaeted about.
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

Quote:
 
I love how people say "rape", because they obviously assume that there was no choice in the matter. It is rape if any partner involved was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, despite if they made the choice to have sex. That's just a rant though, I think financial insecurity and trying to preserve one's sense of mind (by preventing trauma) should be added to your list.

Rape's the most obvious one, though, and such the most common example. He's not necessarily exempting drugging from the list (which, as you said and I agree with, is also rape), nor is he assuming that's the only case.

If financial insecurity is such a big issue, don't have sex. It's really not hard to figure out if you can financially afford a child; if you're working part time and in school, the answer is probably no. And trauma? Again, abstinence means no trauma.

Quote:
 
Sparing a living being from trauma and financial catastrophe isn't worth more than the potential for life? Yes, you kill the potential for life but the only reason abortions are still available is that some good comes from ending the potential for life.

Or you could not have sex, not have to deal with this conundrum, and thank yourself when you do find someone willing to commit down the road (or barring that for not getting involved with someone who won't). If you did it anyway? Too bad, it was your decision as much as the partner's (except for, of course, instances like rape/drugged where it really wasn't).

Quote:
 
A fetus has some worth, but the worth it has doesn't outweigh the potential benefits of the mother when it is eliminated. I feel "I don't want to change diapers!" is not enough of a benefit to cut-off what will be living.

And I feel that good common sense would fix this entire problem. Don't want to be treated as the scum of the earth and eventually live like it because you can't afford your kid? Don't have sex.

Quote:
 
I posed a pregnant teen in high school as a situation where mental trauma would be a strong case to get an abortion. Depression is a common side-effect of teen pregnancies

27.6% is not very common. Elaborated on below, where the actual statistic was raised:

Quote:
 
The study I've shown depicts a different picture, that 27.6% of pregnant teenagers suffer depression (mental trauma). This depression isn't good, this depression is a mental affect of being pregnant as a teen and should warrant an abortion (plus birth defects are higher among teenage mothers vs. adult mothers).

That's also about 72.4% of pregnant teens who don't have depression. Should the interests of 100% of the next generation of Americans be put at risk because a minority of a minority of teens made a mistake they can't deal with?
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>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
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Chris says:
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Rape's the most obvious one, though, and such the most common example. He's not necessarily exempting drugging from the list (which, as you said and I agree with, is also rape), nor is he assuming that's the only case.
That includes married couples if one partner drinks too much...

Simon
 
If financial insecurity is such a big issue, don't have sex. It's really not hard to figure out if you can financially afford a child; if you're working part time and in school, the answer is probably no. And trauma? Again, abstinence means no trauma.
Unforseen financial pitfalls, such as not recieving paid maternity leave, not being able to return the job after pregnancy to raise the child (which causes money trouble), and deadbeat boyfriends walking out can't be "don't have sex lol" issues.

Simon
 
Or you could not have sex, not have to deal with this conundrum, and thank yourself when you do find someone willing to commit down the road (or barring that for not getting involved with someone who won't). If you did it anyway? Too bad, it was your decision as much as the partner's (except for, of course, instances like rape/drugged where it really wasn't).
Abstinence is the best way. In a society that sells sex? Not so often practiced next to birth control. If the guy doesn't commit despite having sex, as we've discussed earlier, he gets off without blame and the woman needs to bear the consequences of HIS actions as well.

Simon
 
And I feel that good common sense would fix this entire problem. Don't want to be treated as the scum of the earth and eventually live like it because you can't afford your kid? Don't have sex.
What the fuck did that have to do with this?

"A fetus has some worth, but the worth it has doesn't outweigh the potential benefits of the mother when it is eliminated. I feel "I don't want to change diapers!" is not enough of a benefit to cut-off what will be living."

Simon
 
27.6% is not very common. Elaborated on below, where the actual statistic was raised:
http://www.soundvision.com/Info/teens/stat.asp

1 million isn't significant. :richie:

Simon
 
That's also about 72.4% of pregnant teens who don't have depression. Should the interests of 100% of the next generation of Americans be put at risk because a minority of a minority of teens made a mistake they can't deal with?
Most of them aren't going to be happy about having a child before they even get a shot at a career, I think it should be available for the women who are depressed, abortion has and will never be mandatory.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
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C475_1337
Jul 12 2007, 05:10 PM
There you go. That's a much more convincing argument than talking about how a fetus isn't alive or some shit like that.

If a woman cannot financially support herself, she's going to snuff out a life just so hers won't be as hard? Doesn't sound justified to me.

What are you talking about with psychological trauma? What's a situation where you know some kind of "psychological trauma" would happen?

If the woman is a rape victim or has a chance of dying in childbirth or somesuch, then yeah, those can possibly justify abortion. That's about where I draw the line, though.

I am sorry to intrude in this debate. I really wanted to join in, so I did.

This quote above me has some very good reasons. If the woman is not financially strong enough, she can't raise the baby. I think it would be hard for any human mother to kill her own baby. Or kill a living thing if the baby is in the stages nearing delivery. But if you think about it, abortion is a disgraceful thing. But in some cases it could be a good thing.

What I am aiming to say is, abortion can only be an option in a very very tight situation. Forget about the mother, think of the baby. What kind of life would it have if the mother was not mentally or financially ready?
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Forget about the mother, think of the baby. What kind of life would it have if the mother was not mentally or financially ready?
Anything > nothing. Adoption > nothing. It's about the mother, not the fetus, when it comes to abortion. I don't see people killing their children because they aren't confident they think they'll be rejected or something like that.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
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in my opinion, abortion is a form of contraception(depending on how far along it is and stuff)
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