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Abortion; renewed fervor for the debate forum ftw
Topic Started: Jun 12 2007, 02:27 PM (2,215 Views)
Soja
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves

Quote:
 
The difference between preventing it from starting and preventing it from continuing? Not a whole lot, beyond the fact that you're killing a living human cell... before it can really feel anything.

The difference between this human cell and other human cells is that this human cell, or cluster of cells as a zygote is, inevitably develops into a separate human on its own (given the obvious incubation it needs). This will not happen with a skin cell. A zygote is therefore unique and a special case, which must be given special consideration. Neither a spermazoa nor an ovum can grow into a human on their own (even with the obvious incubation necessary).

Quote:
 
Our mother gave us the opportunity to live, but she got to choose when.

Chances are our mothers also went to their wedding beds with the knowledge that a child is the likely outcome of such an activity as intercourse. However when people have sex and then get pregnant, and then want an abortion because a child will be an "interference" in their life, that makes me angry. It's easy to avoid these things to begin with, and abortion certainly shouldn't be a method out of them afterwards.

I'm not against abortion for unavoidable circumstances, like rape or a medical danger. I'm against it for convenience.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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Crysta
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wat

Quote:
 
The difference between this human cell and other human cells is that this human cell, or cluster of cells as a zygote is, inevitably develops into a separate human on its own (given the obvious incubation it needs).


If you're willing to take care of it, yes. I'm aware of that.

I'm just not entirely offended if you decide not to. It's not like pregnancy is easy, during or even after birth, especially if you're ill-prepared for such a thing. I don't think it's a fair 'punishment'.

You don't say "omg that idiot he deserves that" after someone gets injured for not wearing a seatbelt, only unlike that accident, the effect is more likely to be less permanent than having a kid.

Quote:
 
This will not happen with a skin cell. A zygote is therefore unique and a special case, which must be given special consideration. Neither a spermazoa nor an ovum can grow into a human on their own (even with the obvious incubation necessary).


That's up to the mother and the father if he wants to be present (a lot of the time they aren't or are supportive of the decision, but I can't speak for EVERYONE). THEY will be the ones affected, not me or you.

Quote:
 
Chances are our mothers also went to their wedding beds with the knowledge that a child is the likely outcome of such an activity as intercourse.


It's always a possibility. It's not actually a "likely" outcome. It takes a few tries, usually, and good timing. People can have unprotected sex and not impregnate anyone.

When you're married, it's probably a lot easier to support a kid, too.

It's not always a want or an expectation, either. I'm pretty sure my parents waited (at least three years). I'm not going in there with you and expecting to have a kid right away, sorry. :psypoke:

Quote:
 
However when people have sex and then get pregnant, and then want an abortion because a child will be an "interference" in their life, that makes me angry.


Even if that's... the truth?

If I had one right now, I'd be pretty damned interfered.

Quote:
 
It's easy to avoid these things to begin with, and abortion certainly shouldn't be a method out of them afterwards.


Okay, so you want them to avoid it... but once they're in those situations you want to leave them stranded in there?

And like I said, it'll happen whether you like it or not, if the couple or woman involved are that desperate. They'll turn to coat hangers or back alley places (and trust me, plenty of people would take advantage of the profit). Is that REALLY so much better? To have them possibly both die because they shouldn't have had unprotected sex?

I'm not talking so much to Soja as I am to others, since he would legalize it just for the rape victims (admittedly, a very low percentage), but how the hell does that make the moralists more at ease? It's not like I think very highly of the women who get routine abortions because they can't keep their pants on, either, but I wouldn't expect her to suddenly stop having sex even with that law in place.

She'll turn elsewhere and it will happen anyway, only with a lot more risk involved. She's someone else's child, too.
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Yzarc
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Quote:
 
It's not like I think very highly of the women who get routine abortions because they can't keep their pants on, either, but I wouldn't expect her to suddenly stop having sex even with that law in place.

Nor is it really fair to throw a child into that sort of environment. I can't imagine that particular woman being a particularly good mother.

Another thing to bring up is that contraception doesn't always work. What? We're just supposed to severely punish teenagers who have sex and are really unlucky? That's a lot of teenagers, and to say that, in this day and age, premarital sex is immoral, is kinda bullshit.

No, I don't believe that sex, in or out of marriage, is immoral. In the past, it was primarily done for making babies. But our society is so driven on sex that not having sex before college is alienating. It happens, as do mistakes. And having a child as a teenager is almost a sure way to make your life a living hell.

And let's not waste our time with science, whether or not the baby is alive. No one here knows everything there is to know, nor do the actual scientists. The research is far too varying, as there are scientists on both sides.
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Soja
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You don't say "omg that idiot he deserves that" after someone gets injured for not wearing a seatbelt, only unlike that accident, the effect is more likely to be less permanent than having a kid.

Death and paralysis are pretty permanent, I think.

And yes, I do say, "If he wasn't wearing a seatbelt as a precaution and the accident happened, he reaps what he sows." That's why I always buckle my belt, and that's why I was so pissed at Lucas when he wouldn't fasten his. At the risk of going off-topic, if we had gotten into an accident (God forbid), and he got injured or killed, being a minor, I would have been the one responsible.

Quote:
 
That's up to the mother and the father if he wants to be present (a lot of the time they aren't or are supportive of the decision, but I can't speak for EVERYONE). THEY will be the ones affected, not me or you.

You know, these Planned Parenthood type groups don't want to stop at just keeping abortion legal. Many of them want it subsidized as well. Guess who'll be paying for those abortions then?

Quote:
 
It's always a possibility. It's not actually a "likely" outcome. It takes a few tries, usually, and good timing. People can have unprotected sex and not impregnate anyone.

Sometimes it takes a few tries, other times it's the first time they do it. My parents had me on the first year of their marriage. Judging by the amount of children some deadbeat fathers have sired, it certainly isn't that difficult.

Quote:
 
When you're married, it's probably a lot easier to support a kid, too.

This is well-documented. But it's not because the couple is married. It's rather because married couples tend to already have well-rooted lives and careers, as well as a steady income.

Quote:
 
It's not always a want or an expectation, either.

It's a matter of calculating risk versus reward. If the reward is an orgasm, and the risk is a pregnancy (and resultantly an expensive abortion), then I hardly consider that a decision taken with wisdom. Specifically when you are unprepared for the burden.

Quote:
 
I'm pretty sure my parents waited (at least three years). I'm not going in there with you and expecting to have a kid right away, sorry. :psypoke:

:Psyduck:

Quote:
 
Even if that's... the truth? If I had one right now, I'd be pretty damned interfered.

Hence your abstaining. Gasp. D:

Quote:
 
Okay, so you want them to avoid it... but once they're in those situations you want to leave them stranded in there?

They got themselves in, they can get themselves out. :Psyduck: It's not like the risk of a sexual encounter isn't common public knowledge. If you think you can handle what may come, go ahead. But if you can't, for your own good, just don't do it.

Quote:
 
She'll turn elsewhere and it will happen anyway, only with a lot more risk involved. She's someone else's child, too.

Then perhaps she should think of the people she is or would be hurting with what she's doing. It's not like I don't have an example in my family, either. My aunt was devastated when she learned that her second daughter was pregnant, but she's making her take the responsibility of birthing the child. Afterwhence it will be given to adoption, and Ruth will have hopefully learned her lesson. -_-
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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Shinobi
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絶望した!!!

girls want too much. they want the feeling of actual sex while not dealing with the consiquences. i don't feel much sympathy for those who sleep around, get pregnant, then want an abortion.

the only case where i would agree on abortion is where a girl is raped. can't help but feel sorry for the girl.




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Light Yagami
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I usually don't like discussing such a thing since I'm stuck between "for" and "against"

- I think it's never gonna stop. I think that some girls would actually find horrible ways to abort a child. Becuase of this, I just say "not in my hands". Ofcourse, I've never been in a situation where I had to make such a choice. Yeah, facts and morality says it's bad and on paper...it's horrible, BUT if I were to ever knock up a girl, I'd probably ignore all that and recommend and abortion. Sorreh.

-On the other hand, I think it serves them right (slutty ass chicks). I mean, how many times to people have to say "wear a fucking condom". There are birth control pills for those damned sluts. Sure, it's perfectly normal to have sex with your boyfriend/Girlfriend but everyone knows what comes after....you come...

Anyway, I totally agree with Soja's comment full of win
"Aside from that, my views are unchanged. Abortion is intrinsically wrong when it's made as a choice of convenience, IE "I can't afford a kid." You should've thought about that before your wild night, lady; lack of forethought is aptly rewarded. This is the case in all things, not just sexuality."

But other things get me thinking...chances are that the same mother that wanted an abortion...might end up putting that child through a horrible 18 years at her untable household or might give that child up for adoption.




But like I said, I'm in the middle.

...it would be nice if it were illegal though. That would probably scare some condoms onto those filthy dicks and some pills onto those whores' mouthes.




PS. The only way I'd be 100% ok with it is if the girl got pregnant from rape.
I mean...I know a mother's love can do so much but if there are mothers that beat their children in the name of God...then what's stopping a teenage girl to feel unpure, hatred, anger, self pitty, and pain everytime she looks into her child's eyes. She might even give her child a safe comfortable life at home, but what good is that when the child feels that angst ridden and teinted love that his/her mother gives off.

I know, I'd be totally destroyed if I ever found out that I was the product of one of the sickest acts of crime out there.


Life sucks.
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Crysta
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wat

Quote:
 
Death and paralysis are pretty permanent, I think.


A broken arm or leg isn't.

Quote:
 
And yes, I do say, "If he wasn't wearing a seatbelt as a precaution and the accident happened, he reaps what he sows."


That certainly isn't "omg that idiot he deserves that". They obviously would reap what they sow regardless.

They would obviously want to get it treated, though.

Quote:
 
You know, these Planned Parenthood type groups don't want to stop at just keeping abortion legal. Many of them want it subsidized as well. Guess who'll be paying for those abortions then?


I doubt it's the worst thing we're likely to subsidize or have been subsidizing, but since it's not happening yet, I don't see why we're going to bring it up when it's not the core conflict.

Quote:
 
Sometimes it takes a few tries, other times it's the first time they do it. My parents had me on the first year of their marriage. Judging by the amount of children some deadbeat fathers have sired, it certainly isn't that difficult.


It's chance. Do it enough times and you're bound to get caught.

We're not in constant heat and it takes a lot for spermies to reach their destination unscathed.

I watched enough sex videos in school to know, even visually! :psypoke:

Age is also important... I think the teenage girls have a higher risk of getting pregnant.

Quote:
 
This is well-documented. But it's not because the couple is married. It's rather because married couples tend to already have well-rooted lives and careers, as well as a steady income.


Four hands are better than two as far as I'm concerned, even if you're dirt poor.

Quote:
 
It's a matter of calculating risk versus reward. If the reward is an orgasm, and the risk is a pregnancy (and resultantly an expensive abortion), then I hardly consider that a decision taken with wisdom. Specifically when you are unprepared for the burden.


I never said it was a SMART thing to do.

But I don't see much sense in making obviously unprepared people shoulder the burden if they're obviously irresponsible and... unprepared. That also isn't very smart.

Quote:
 
Hence your abstaining. Gasp. D:


Paranoia also has something to do with it. A lot of people (okay, just about everyone) have more active social lives, though. :psypoke:

Teenagers... usually think bad things won't happen to them. I'm all for learning experiences, but being forced to rear another human being is a bit much in my opinion. Kids shouldn't have kids.

Quote:
 
They got themselves in, they can get themselves out.


Hence abortion. :psypoke:

Quote:
 
It's not like the risk of a sexual encounter isn't common public knowledge.


"You can get pregnant" is known, I hope, but "you consequentially ruin your life" isn't usually realized until the crap hits the fan.

And what of the kid if they are born? Yzarc touched on that nicely.

Quote:
 
Then perhaps she should think of the people she is or would be hurting with what she's doing.


Most abortions are done early. That isn't "hurting" as much as you like to think it is.

An abortion may hurt a lot less, too, if circumstances are especially trying. Even they aren't, I don't think it's our decision to make nor do I think our consciences are the ones likely to affected by it.

Quote:
 
It's not like I don't have an example in my family, either. My aunt was devastated when she learned that her second daughter was pregnant, but she's making her take the responsibility of birthing the child.


My grandparents tried to convince my aunt to have an abortion because it was out of wedlock, but she didn't. That probably served up a healthy amount of alienation. I wouldn't think any less of her even if she did, and I sure as hell wouldn't call her immoral.

I'm not intending to force my daughter do anything like that if she really doesn't want to. I don't agree with that sort of 'punishment' or 'morality'.
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monsoon moon


Crysta
Jun 13 2007, 02:50 AM
You kill insects, don't you?

(^Brilliance)



What is murder? Killing a baby is killing a baby is murder- the foetus prior to birth is not comparable to something that's been born:

Something that's been born has contact with other people, and there is no event after birth that can distinguish when an entity begins to actually develop feelings. Not 'potential'- real feelings. Therefore in the womb, while emotions are still just potential, the foetus is (in this respect) no more developed than sperm, abortion every bit as inhumane as the tissues by the side of a 14 year old's bed. So I reject Soja's analogy of a phoetus as comparable to a person relying on medical sustainance, as the latter has so much more (already in place) to lose.

The idea that abortion is comparable the death sentence is also fundmentally flawed. While the death sentence (or life in jail) is a punishment for someone who's thrown away their chance at life, a foetus has not even fully been given its chance (for the same reasons outlined in the previous paragraph).

I don't know about the current costs of abortion, but perhaps a partial solution could be achieved through a tiered pricing system (sick, eh), presumably favouring those with medical or abuse related pregnancies, and the whooping the careless girls on the ass with sky high prices, all the more so if they could easily support a child.

The quality of life a potential human would be offered is a big deal. Where to draw the line with this (in terms of the legality/acceptability/cost of abortion) is a complex argument, and I don't have the personal experience or knowledge sufficient to form a balanced opinion. I should point out that the same is true of the 'pricing' system mentioned above- the priniciple is all I'm suggesting- I don't pretend to know enough about the 'scene' to personally devise functional legislation on the matter.

I can't be bothered to go into human vs animal analogies right now... I think that probably, living animals don't deserve to die any more than a human baby- don't forget that we're animals too. But then I eat meat and rarely think twice about it, so clearly there is something about my perspective that doesn't tally. The main reason for this inconsistency is probably just that the concept- of comparing the capacity to suffer emotionally between humans and animals- is such a huge thing to consider that regrettably (essentially through laziness) I have yet to apply my opinions on the matter to everything I really should.
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Soja
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Quote:
 
That certainly isn't "omg that idiot he deserves that". They obviously would reap what they sow regardless.

They would obviously want to get it treated, though.

Most accidents in which the person is not wearing a seatbelt result in life-altering injuries (paralysis, brain damage) or death. And yes, what I said was pretty much "the idiot deserves it." I just worded it nicer.

Quote:
 
I doubt it's the worst thing we're likely to subsidize or have been subsidizing, but since it's not happening yet, I don't see why we're going to bring it up when it's not the core conflict.

Because the subject has been a source of discussion before the reality that overturning Roe v. Wade became a possibility. I didn't like it then, I don't like it now, because a great number of people are against abortion. I personally would not want my tax money to contribute to the termination of a loose woman's pregnancy because she can't afford it on her own.

Quote:
 
But I don't see much sense in making obviously unprepared people shoulder the burden if they're obviously irresponsible and... unprepared. That also isn't very smart.

I don't ask that they raise the child. I ask that they give it a chance, and then give it to an agency to place with someone that actually wants the child. Hospitals take care of that automatically if the mother so wishes. The "burden" can end there if she wants.

Quote:
 
Hence abortion. :psypoke:

She gets no sympathy from me.

Quote:
 
"You can get pregnant" is known, I hope, but "you consequentially ruin your life" isn't usually realized until the crap hits the fan.

The latter which needs to be expounded on far more often. In fact, I think the notion is already well-highlighted. People just don't get it, particularly the young, stupid ones.

Quote:
 
Most abortions are done early. That isn't "hurting" as much as you like to think it is.

Don't assume. I was talking about how the mother-in-question's actions would be hurting those that care about her, such as parents, siblings, etc. Family generally doesn't like to watch one of its own self-destruct or put themselves in situations like an unwanted pregnancy, especially when much was taught to avoid the circumstance.

Quote:
 
My grandparents tried to convince my aunt to have an abortion because it was out of wedlock, but she didn't. That probably served up a healthy amount of alienation. I wouldn't think any less of her even if she did, and I sure as hell wouldn't call her immoral.

Well with that amount of bullying, one could hardly blame her if she aborted. But she evidently wasn't thinking about only herself when she decided to carry fully to term.

Quote:
 
I'm not intending to force my daughter do anything like that if she really doesn't want to. I don't agree with that sort of 'punishment' or 'morality'.

Our daughter had better hope that she never gets herself into the position where that happens. While I would not alienate her and it would pain me greatly to watch the struggle, I, believing my aunt has the right idea, would also make her carry to term. It's not about punishment. It's about taking responsibility. A fledgling life should not have to pay for the selfishness of its co-creator.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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Reaver
Troll

Housuke Odoroki
 
That's... that's an awful attitude to have, if you ask me...
I don't think so, it's just the way things work. Everything that man needs comes from the death of another organism in one way or another, wether it be though haresting plants for cotton, preventing the reproduction of appletrees through picking their fruits, or killing a cow for leather and meat. It's just how it works.

Housuke Odoroki
 
Considering that most abortions are done, I would imagine, simply because a woman doesn't want to have a baby... how is that necessary for survival? How does that benefit mankind in the same way that meat does, or fur, or vegetables?
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2411798.html

As we can see, women seek abortions for what they do, delay pregnancy. The reasons, however, aren't because they want to. The second most common reason is socioeconomic reasons, these women who get abortions can't afford to miss work to care for a child and sometimes can't afford to pay for a child. You're thinking that women are terminating these fetuses because it's "lol fun and lets me be irresponsible!", but you're not looking at the other reasons. Allowing a woman to continue to provide for herself certainly benefits the woman as much as meat, fur, and vegetables benefit the survival of mankind.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Soja
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves

Reaver
 
You're thinking that women are terminating these fetuses because it's "lol fun and lets me be irresponsible!", but you're not looking at the other reasons. Allowing a woman to continue to provide for herself certainly benefits the woman as much as meat, fur, and vegetables benefit the survival of mankind.

The answer is simple.

And far less expensive than an abortion.

DON'T. HAVE. SEX.

There is no pregnancy to terminate if one doesn't start one! D:

If it were so easy to carefully monitor one's menstrual cycle to know when to have sex with minimal risk of a pregnancy and when to avoid an encounter, this would be a non-issue.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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Wind Sword
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY

Most abortion debates:

Quote:
 
A fetus isn't a baby

Yeah it is.

No, you're wrong

No you are.

Lather rinse repeat.

But on an aside to Reaver, why would you be opposed to abortions electively if you think fetuses aren't people? Because there is a chance it might be alive? For me, that would be enough. That's why those given the Death Penalty need BEYOND reasonable doubt. There is a fair amount of reasonable doubt, so I don't mess with it.

One scenario, they are alive, we don't stop, and we're killing more than the Nazis did.

The other, they aren't alive, we stop, babies are born. We can take in millions of adoptions from China yearly. If even 1 in 4 mothers give up their baby, we're looking at a little under 200,000.

We should give tax incentives to people who adopt. That'd be a good idea. :hmm:
~~Wind Sword

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Please keep Christian bashing to a minimum. This is mainly the American South (and mainly Evangelical death cults), which is similar to Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Touching.

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Clones are create and people can't bore a clone. Scientifically they are called born and not created. The only way to pre-determine their genes is if they are already out in the world usually in a pod that would resemble the sac in a mothers womb. Take Star Wars for example.

Smartest post ever made.
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monsoon moon


Soja
Jun 13 2007, 01:36 PM
The answer is simple.

DON'T. HAVE. SEX.

for the american public/humanity? simply impossible.
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Soja
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves

monsoon moon
Jun 13 2007, 09:15 AM
Soja
Jun 13 2007, 01:36 PM
The answer is simple.

DON'T. HAVE. SEX.

for the american public/humanity? simply impossible.

No, it is very possible. If we sleep around it's because we choose to. We all have the instinct to have sex, but we also have it to kill, rape, steal, etc. All of them we can control. If we can choose to do something, we can just as easily choose not to.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged.
6. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
7. Do all this in the course of a month.
8. ????
9. PROFIT!!!

Congratulations! You've been banned from FEFF!
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monsoon moon


Then I must agree to disagree with you on that point, as I could never compare the instinctual appeal of sex to that of murder, rape or theft.
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