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Abortion; renewed fervor for the debate forum ftw
Topic Started: Jun 12 2007, 02:27 PM (2,211 Views)
Crysta
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wat

How is it a cover-up? Shirking responsibility is one thing, but it's not comparable to getting rid of the body after a crime. :Psyduck:

And you know what? I'm not their parent. I still have yet to "grow up" so to speak, so I don't feel too obligated to tell someone what they should do with their lives or mistakes. I would be if I felt they were directly affecting me or the community as a whole or something, but it's not. It's their decision, their responsibility, their conscience, their life.
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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Soja
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Simon
Jun 27 2007, 07:45 PM
"Why take the risk over a few minutes of pleasure?" is the question I'd have to ask for cases where teens get pregnant. I'm not calling them sluts or anything, but honestly, knowing full well that my life or the potential partner's life could get completely screwed over (no pun intended), I'd try damn hard to pass on a few minutes of pleasure, tempting though it may be.

I don't have a problem with aborting in the case of rape or a case where the mother might die in childbirth, but I view aborting because of an inconvenient pregnancy as a punishment for the baby and a way for irresponsible people to shirk the duties that result as a consequence of their mistakes.

Somebody finally gets it. Hallelujah. Or rather, he knew it before I exhorted on it exhaustively.

I further disagree with Crysta, who says that it has no impact on the community. Every person's actions have an impact on the community, because then they are setting an example for everyone else. Those who have strong convictions against what they see will not follow their path, but those who don't -- the impressionable ones, markedly peers -- more possibly will. Or if not, the "everybody does it" mentality will come into play sooner or later, and then what?

Naturally, I blame the parents.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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monsoon moon


Simon
Jun 28 2007, 12:45 AM
Quote:
 
There once was a soldier in the Israelite army named Uriah. He had a wife named Bathsheba and was serving his lord, the Israelite king David. While Uriah is off at war with one of Israel's foes, King David catches sight of Bathsheba nude and asks her to come to his palace to have sex with her. She gets pregnant, and to cover up the pregnancy, King David conspires to get Uriah killed so that David can marry Bathsheba before she gives birth.


Now, we can learn from this that covering up a mistake by eliminating someone as a cover up is wrong.

Going back to our soon-to-be teenage parents, we see that they make the mistake of premature pregnancy and try to cover up said mistake by eliminating the human inside them.

uria>'the human inside of them'

uria has done good already, by loving, by serving his people, by having experienced life and in this affected other people's experience of life in a positive way. the thing in a woman's stomach has not.
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Reaver
Troll

Simon
 
"Why take the risk over a few minutes of pleasure?" is the question I'd have to ask for cases where teens get pregnant. I'm not calling them sluts or anything, but honestly, knowing full well that my life or the potential partner's life could get completely screwed over (no pun intended), I'd try damn hard to pass on a few minutes of pleasure, tempting though it may be.
We agree on this. Many other people? Not so much. Personal values need to be put aside, since many people have many different values.

Simon
 
I don't have a problem with aborting in the case of rape or a case where the mother might die in childbirth, but I view aborting because of an inconvenient pregnancy as a punishment for the baby and a way for irresponsible people to shirk the duties that result as a consequence of their mistakes.
Why, again, is death a punishment? There are good things in this world, love is the most prominent example of these things, but there are things I would rather not know about. I think that saying death is a "punishment" makes living look like a blast, despite how life can flat out suck at times. If you've read Kurt Cobain's biography and about his situation, you'd agree that life can suck.

Simon
 
Now, we can learn from this that covering up a mistake by eliminating someone as a cover up is wrong.
A fetus isn't a someone yet. It's GOING to be a someone, but it is NOT a someone yet. Getting pregnant young is a mistake, but it is also a mistake to let it hinder one's career and well-being.

I think abortion clinics need to strongly deter people from abortions. People don't WANT to get abortions, it's not like teenage girls happily walk into the clinic and come out smiling holding a red balloon and laughing because they got an abortion. Clinics should try and talk women out of getting abortions for silly reasons, but at the same time it needs to be allowed because there are women in real life situations who need abortions.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

Quote:
 
Why, again, is death a punishment? There are good things in this world, love is the most prominent example of these things, but there are things I would rather not know about. I think that saying death is a "punishment" makes living look like a blast, despite how life can flat out suck at times. If you've read Kurt Cobain's biography and about his situation, you'd agree that life can suck.


Option 1. Child is aborted. Chance of having a good life = 0%; best scenario for the child is that it's killed as quickly as possible.

Option 2. Child is not aborted. Chance of having a good life = >0%; best scenario is that the child is adopted by loving parents and has a good life; worst scenario is that the child has a crappy life and kills self.

Option 2 (life)'s worst case scenario is Option 1 (abortion)'s best case scenario; clear win for life.

Just like how life can suck, it can also be great; just look at the middle class on up. Saying life can suck without bringing up the opposite and coexistent reality that it can't paints a picture of the world that's one-sided and inaccurate.

Quote:
 
A fetus isn't a someone yet. It's GOING to be a someone, but it is NOT a someone yet. Getting pregnant young is a mistake, but it is also a mistake to let it hinder one's career and well-being.

So you sacrifice a child to escape your responsibility?
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
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Chris says:
me*
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Chris says:
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Yzarc
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Simon
Jun 28 2007, 06:53 PM
Quote:
 
Why, again, is death a punishment? There are good things in this world, love is the most prominent example of these things, but there are things I would rather not know about. I think that saying death is a "punishment" makes living look like a blast, despite how life can flat out suck at times. If you've read Kurt Cobain's biography and about his situation, you'd agree that life can suck.


Option 1. Child is aborted. Chance of having a good life = 0%; best scenario for the child is that it's killed as quickly as possible.

Option 2. Child is not aborted. Chance of having a good life = >0%; best scenario is that the child is adopted by loving parents and has a good life; worst scenario is that the child has a crappy life and kills self.

Option 2 (life)'s worst case scenario is Option 1 (abortion)'s best case scenario; clear win for life.

Just like how life can suck, it can also be great; just look at the middle class on up. Saying life can suck without bringing up the opposite and coexistent reality that it can't paints a picture of the world that's one-sided and inaccurate.

Quote:
 
A fetus isn't a someone yet. It's GOING to be a someone, but it is NOT a someone yet. Getting pregnant young is a mistake, but it is also a mistake to let it hinder one's career and well-being.

So you sacrifice a child to escape your responsibility?

To compare abortion to death is pretty far off. Reaver's point about life sucking was inherently flawed.
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Reaver
Troll

Simon
 
Just like how life can suck, it can also be great; just look at the middle class on up. Saying life can suck without bringing up the opposite and coexistent reality that it can't paints a picture of the world that's one-sided and inaccurate.
...Which is exactly what you do by calling death a punishment. Since wealthier older women shouldn't get abortions (28+ age area), it eliminates the idea of a good life. When I say "abortions should be legal", I usually assume it would be for a woman who cannot support a child for physical, emotional, and financial reasons. If a single woman gets pregnant and we ban abortions, the biological father is free from responsibility. Something is fucked up with that, we need abortions to be legal so women aren't financially screwed (no pun intended) by men who simply walk out when a baby is part of the picture.

Simon
 
So you sacrifice a child to escape your responsibility?
A woman can't sacrifice a child to escape responsibility, yet a guy can sacrifice a pregnant woman to escape responsibility. Dwell on that.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

Reaver
Jun 28 2007, 07:34 PM
Simon
 
Just like how life can suck, it can also be great; just look at the middle class on up. Saying life can suck without bringing up the opposite and coexistent reality that it can't paints a picture of the world that's one-sided and inaccurate.
...Which is exactly what you do by calling death a punishment. Since wealthier older women shouldn't get abortions (28+ age area), it eliminates the idea of a good life. When I say "abortions should be legal", I usually assume it would be for a woman who cannot support a child for physical, emotional, and financial reasons. If a single woman gets pregnant and we ban abortions, the biological father is free from responsibility. Something is fucked up with that, we need abortions to be legal so women aren't financially screwed (no pun intended) by men who simply walk out when a baby is part of the picture.

Simon
 
So you sacrifice a child to escape your responsibility?
A woman can't sacrifice a child to escape responsibility, yet a guy can sacrifice a pregnant woman to escape responsibility. Dwell on that.

So, in other words, instead of trying to find a way to make both sexes responsible for their mistake, you're suggesting we allow both sexes to escape responsibility? That's even worse than the status quo.

If we're talking about fixing responsibility issues, then we shouldn't be talking about legalizing abortion, we should be talking about being tougher on biological fathers who shirk responsibility. Establish something akin to child support for separated couples in the case of something like this, or find some other way besides "Well, one party can cut and run but the other can't, so let's let the other party cut and run too."

And it may be that I have yet to see the arguments in this topic, but I'm not convinced that adoption is an unsuitable alternative.

In the cases you're referring to, Reaver, my thought is that the problem ain't the legal status of abortion but the lack of balls (no pun intended) of the irresponsible guy that ducks out.

As for this part:

Quote:
 
...Which is exactly what you do by calling death a punishment.

I stand by the general idea of my statement, but I do need to clarify. In some instances, death > life; however, in a case where someone would be willing to undergo abortion, they'll put the child up for adoption if they can't abort said child. Now, consider the pool of willing foster parents. Granted, not all of them will fit the mold of the typical foster parent, but the majority do; otherwise, it wouldn't be called a "typical" foster parent. I digress; my point is, the primary foster couple is going to be capable of living fairly well with the added expenses of a child, and they'll also be more than willing to love this child. In other words, the majority of adopting parents will give the kid a good life, and all will try their damndest to do so.

In contrast, the majority of people in a world where abortion is such a hot-button issue would prefer life to death and view death as a punishment.

So yes, you have a point, my original statement was one-sided; however I believe I've adequately corrected said point's one-sidedness.

...Did any of that help at all?
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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Reaver
Troll

Simon
 
So, in other words, instead of trying to find a way to make both sexes responsible for their mistake, you're suggesting we allow both sexes to escape responsibility? That's even worse than the status quo.
We cannot force people to make or break relationships. If the guy won't tie the knot, which is more like a contract in the government, the woman is fucked. Should we force the man/woman to tie the knot? No. You also can't go after biological parents because that means if you donate sperm you stand to donate a lot of money too. The best solution is to allow abortions so that we can avoid more legal strife.

Simon
 
If we're talking about fixing responsibility issues, then we shouldn't be talking about legalizing abortion, we should be talking about being tougher on biological fathers who shirk responsibility. Establish something akin to child support for separated couples in the case of something like this, or find some other way besides "Well, one party can cut and run but the other can't, so let's let the other party cut and run too."
Note that women who get drunk and pregnant, for example, may not be able to remember the biological father. That's an example of a rape abortion, since an adult under the influence cannot possibly consent to sex. Now, how is someone who has no idea what happened last night going to remember the face or full name of the guy who knocked her up?

Not as easy as one thinks.

Simon
 
And it may be that I have yet to see the arguments in this topic, but I'm not convinced that adoption is an unsuitable alternative.
If a woman doesn't get paid maternity leave and can't afford to miss work, it's best she gets a loan for the abortion. The only reason I say loan for the abortion versus loan for the three month span she isn't working is because banks don't lend money to people without jobs.

Simon
 
In the cases you're referring to, Reaver, my thought is that the problem ain't the legal status of abortion but the lack of balls (no pun intended) of the irresponsible guy that ducks out.
Because we all full well know that men aren't going to leave pregnant women. The media displays the image that men are supposed to be able to get into a woman's pants and then leave her, pregnant or not. Chances are by banning abortion that isn't going to change.


As for the last bit, it doesn't change that life is going to have downs and there is the distinct possibility the child will not be adopted. I guess that part is left to the opinion of death as a punishment or not.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
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Bossadai
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New Days

If we ban abortion, and people don't want their babies, they can throw them in an orphanage.

Because we have such a huge, HUGE amount of people getting abortions these days.

I don't think the right to kill beings, unborn or not, is right, just so a person can be happy. It's one of the most selfish things a person can do, not taking action for their responsibilities.


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Reaver
Troll

Directed at Ronan:

Your view is unbelievably close-minded. If a woman isn't put on paid maternity leave, I'm almost positive she'll be A-OK without 3+ months of payment while she initially cares for the baby until she can put it up for adoption! YAY, EVERYTHINGS HAPPY BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T HAVE AN ABORTION.

Or wait, even better! What if a woman and a boyfriend are living together, both working part time jobs, while the boyfriend is in school. If that woman gets pregnant and the boyfriend walks out, surely being fired from such a job, having no medical coverage (meaning she's paying for the hospital visits), and THEN gives the baby for adoption. EVERYONE WINS LOL.

It's not as clear cut as killing is bad, living is good, therefore abortion is wrong. There are SO Many other factors to it that it cannot be summed up as simply as what you said.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
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Phoenix Wright
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that moron that forgot this is s11

Quote:
 
We cannot force people to make or break relationships. If the guy won't tie the knot, which is more like a contract in the government, the woman is fucked. Should we force the man/woman to tie the knot? No. You also can't go after biological parents because that means if you donate sperm you stand to donate a lot of money too. The best solution is to allow abortions so that we can avoid more legal strife.

If the man won't man up (I really need to quit making puns)...then yes, the woman's in a load of trouble. But in the cases I'm against abortion for, the pregnancy was not a one-sided affair. Someone of the two must take responsibility if not both, and "the two" doesn't include the baby. If fairness is the utmost of concern in this issue, then why is fairness for the one innocent party in all of this not even considered?

And anybody reckless enough to go to a sperm bank and self-impregnate herself without thinking the consequences through full well earned the unwanted pregnancy and should have to put up with it. ((Smacked with a chair sounds like an appropriate add-on there; it's just utter stupidity to do that.)) It may seem harsh, but that's not even a "heat of the moment" type thing like with most abortions I'm against.

Quote:
 
Note that women who get drunk and pregnant, for example, may not be able to remember the biological father. That's an example of a rape abortion, since an adult under the influence cannot possibly consent to sex. Now, how is someone who has no idea what happened last night going to remember the face or full name of the guy who knocked her up?

Not as easy as one thinks.

Actually, quite easy.

Myself
this thread, earlier
I don't have a problem with aborting in the case of rape


Like you said, that's clearly rape, and I don't have a problem there. It'd be nice if they stuck it through for the kid (nay, heroic), but I can certainly understand aborting in that circumstance.

Quote:
 
If a woman doesn't get paid maternity leave and can't afford to miss work, it's best she gets a loan for the abortion. The only reason I say loan for the abortion versus loan for the three month span she isn't working is because banks don't lend money to people without jobs.

The woman in question shouldn't be having sex to begin with if she's that incapable of dealing with the financial burden of a child. I really don't feel a whole lot of empathy for trying to shirk the responsibility of a child through abortion.

Quote:
 
Because we all full well know that men aren't going to leave pregnant women. The media displays the image that men are supposed to be able to get into a woman's pants and then leave her, pregnant or not. Chances are by banning abortion that isn't going to change.

That's another thing I've got a problem with: the complete bullshit the media heralds, like sleeping around and reckless sex. I'm not just calling for a general abortion ban (specific cases like rape, remember, are allowed), I'm also calling for a societal change, specifically with all of this immoral crap blasting across my TV screen. Don't worry, I'm smart; first the change, then the ban. No point in screwing over (*shot for punning AGAIN*) women nationwide for no reason when the same goal can be achieved without said screwing over.


EDIT: In a no doubt poor attempt to lighten the mood of the debate a bit, am I the only one who's noticed that this topic is highly susceptible to puns?
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
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Bossadai
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Quote:
 
Your view is unbelievably close-minded. If a woman isn't put on paid maternity leave, I'm almost positive she'll be A-OK without 3+ months of payment while she initially cares for the baby until she can put it up for adoption! YAY, EVERYTHINGS HAPPY BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T HAVE AN ABORTION.


You're a moron if you don't work at a place that provides paid maternity leave, especially if you're sexually active. People are free to work at companies that provide that, anyway.

Quote:
 
Or wait, even better! What if a woman and a boyfriend are living together, both working part time jobs, while the boyfriend is in school. If that woman gets pregnant and the boyfriend walks out, surely being fired from such a job, having no medical coverage (meaning she's paying for the hospital visits), and THEN gives the baby for adoption. EVERYONE WINS LOL.


Yes, because this circumstance happens ALL THE TIME.

Give me something believable, not some uber-coincidence.

If you put your unborn child up for adoption, the adoptive parents will pay for the whole birth procedure.

Quote:
 
It's not as clear cut as killing is bad, living is good, therefore abortion is wrong. There are SO Many other factors to it that it cannot be summed up as simply as what you said.


Like what? More coincidences?

This is a life-and-death matter, here. Want to consider a fetus a bag of cells over a person?

If so, consider yourself destroying potential.
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Reaver
Troll

Simon
 
If the man won't man up (I really need to quit making puns)...then yes, the woman's in a load of trouble. But in the cases I'm against abortion for, the pregnancy was not a one-sided affair. Someone of the two must take responsibility if not both, and "the two" doesn't include the baby. If fairness is the utmost of concern in this issue, then why is fairness for the one innocent party in all of this not even considered?
I'm 100% in agreement that women who can afford abortions and can support themselves with help of a husband or with money they've saved from years of working without a child should NOT look into abortions, that's just shirking pregnancy. However, as much as I hate to say it, abortion must be legalized for all because we cannot limit who abortions are given to and it is more important for the people who need abortions to get those abortions than it is to prevent people who don't need abortions from getting abortions.

The sperm bank comment refers to why we cannot hold the biological father accountable. That's all.


Simon
 
Like you said, that's clearly rape, and I don't have a problem there. It'd be nice if they stuck it through for the kid (nay, heroic), but I can certainly understand aborting in that circumstance.
The use of the word "they' bugs me. Keep in mind even if a woman says "yes" to sex while she is drunk it is still rape, no matter HOW willing she was when intoxicated.

Simon
 
The woman in question shouldn't be having sex to begin with if she's that incapable of dealing with the financial burden of a child. I really don't feel a whole lot of empathy for trying to shirk the responsibility of a child through abortion.
She's being held responsible for the actions of another too. She's being put through all this misery because the father won't help her out, period. That to me is 100% wrong and to compensate she should be able to get an abortion and save herself financially.

Simon, I fear society won't change if abortion is made illegal. Do you seriously expect some of your peers to stop wanting to get in a girl's pants because abortions are illegal? HELL NAW, not their problem. In the ideal world, women wouldn't need to get abortions because men woudln't be such deadbeats and shirk their responsibility.

Unfortunately, that is the way of the world.

-------------------------------------
Ronan
 
You're a moron if you don't work at a place that provides paid maternity leave, especially if you're sexually active. People are free to work at companies that provide that, anyway.
It's true, women who work at places that won't pay maternity leave are stupid and deserve to be bogged down in debt. I mean, women can automatically get a job with paid maternity leave, it's not like jobs worked by the lower class don't offer paid maternity leave most times, right? (Hint: Paragraph reeks of sarcasm).

Ronan
 
Yes, because this circumstance happens ALL THE TIME.

Give me something believable, not some uber-coincidence.

If you put your unborn child up for adoption, the adoptive parents will pay for the whole birth procedure.
I don't think adoptive parents want to pay a medical bill from a few months back as part of adopting a child. I also doubt the child will be adopted ASAP and the woman will get her money immediately. Men walking out on women isn't uncommon, that's the only lasting part of the scenario.

Ronan
 
Like what? More coincidences?

This is a life-and-death matter, here. Want to consider a fetus a bag of cells over a person?

If so, consider yourself destroying potential.
I do consider a fetus a bag of cells over a person, I've even shown earlier that a fetus is not alive. Aiding a person > aiding the potential for life. You act like most women who get abortions just don't want childen, maybe you should think of the psychological and emotional ties that come with getting an abortion.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Bossadai
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New Days

Quote:
 
It's true, women who work at places that won't pay maternity leave are stupid and deserve to be bogged down in debt. I mean, women can automatically get a job with paid maternity leave, it's not like jobs worked by the lower class don't offer paid maternity leave most times, right? (Hint: Paragraph reeks of sarcasm).


Sarcasm doesn't help prove your point, you know.

Insurance also takes most, if not all of the cost damages for births, too, you know.

You know, You know, You know, You know, You know, You know, You know, You know, You know, ...

Quote:
 
I don't think adoptive parents want to pay a medical bill from a few months back as part of adopting a child. I also doubt the child will be adopted ASAP and the woman will get her money immediately. Men walking out on women isn't uncommon, that's the only lasting part of the scenario.


If one truly wants a child, one would pay anything. It's not like the expenses are awful to begin with.

And yes, children can get adopted ASAP. Look it up; it's happened before and is happening now.

Quote:
 
You act like most women who get abortions just don't want childen, maybe you should think of the psychological and emotional ties that come with getting an abortion.


Which are...
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