Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]


Welcome to Fusion. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!

If you are registering with a Yahoo e-mail address, or if you are having trouble receiving your validation e-mail, please refer to this topic for assistance.


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 8
  • 14
Abortion; renewed fervor for the debate forum ftw
Topic Started: Jun 12 2007, 02:27 PM (2,210 Views)
Reaver
Troll

Heath insurance is another benefit that not many people who work in the lower class have. Support everyone ftw.

lolspecificcase. What about children that AREN'T adopted immediately and, since this is an issue now, what about adoption agencies that don't give children homes if the parents are gay/lesbian? :-\

LOL I LOVE GETTING ABORTIONS, ITS SO FUN TO GET ABORTIONS! Seriously, I'm fairly certain women don't WANT to get abortions but prefer it over the other alternative.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bossadai
Member Avatar
New Days

Gonna update tomorrow I'm tired. :Psyduck: :Psyduck: :Psyduck:


No, srsly, I will
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

^^^ Likewise, only make it ~20 minutes or so. I'll edit it into the post.

...Oops, delete this. I forgot I was going to edit the post below in. ;>_>
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

Reaver
 
However, as much as I hate to say it, abortion must be legalized for all because we cannot limit who abortions are given to and it is more important for the people who need abortions to get those abortions than it is to prevent people who don't need abortions from getting abortions.

We can't? Why couldn't the abortion clinic require some kind of test (psychological, perhaps) to see if the potential patient was raped/will die in childbirth/neither happened and refuse to administer abortions to those who are simply doing it to shirk responsibility? Other businesses can limit their customers; why can't these clinics?

Reaver
 
The use of the word "they' bugs me. Keep in mind even if a woman says "yes" to sex while she is drunk it is still rape, no matter HOW willing she was when intoxicated.

Oops, should've specified. "They" doesn't refer to the couple that had sex, but rather raped women in general. Like I said, I'm not expecting any rape victims to go through with the pregnancy and childbirth, but I will definitely say it's heroic of those women who do have the child and try to raise it despite the fact that they never wanted the kid.

Reaver
 
She's being held responsible for the actions of another too. She's being put through all this misery because the father won't help her out, period. That to me is 100% wrong and to compensate she should be able to get an abortion and save herself financially.

If it's not fair to hold one person responsible for the actions of herself and another person, then how is it fair to hold a child responsible for the actions of two other people? I will grant that it's not fair to the woman in this to have to suffer the consequences of her actions and the actions of her irresponsible partner, but it's even more unfair to make the innocent third party suffer the consequences of both parents' mistakes. It's not fair to the woman, no, but at least she helped to dig her own hole; the kid didn't do anything but exist.

Reaver
 
Simon, I fear society won't change if abortion is made illegal. Do you seriously expect some of your peers to stop wanting to get in a girl's pants because abortions are illegal? HELL NAW, not their problem. In the ideal world, women wouldn't need to get abortions because men woudln't be such deadbeats and shirk their responsibility.

That's why I'd hope that society changes before abortion policy. Societal change is first on my list of priorities as presi-erm, I'll save that for later, but I know better than to expect society to change because of an abortion ban. That's why I said this earlier (key part bolded for emphasis):

Myself
this thread, earlier
Don't worry, I'm smart; first the change, then the ban.

((Annotation: change = change in society; ban = abortion ban


Gotta run for now, but this has been pretty eye-opening for me. GJ Reaver.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C475_1337
Member Avatar
One serious d00d

Meh, I think abortion is the same as murder; it's not so much different from bashing an infant's skull in a couple minutes after it's born, and yet for some reason that's not allowed but abortion is.

By aborting, you are choosing death over life for that child without him/her having any say in the matter. If the kid was going to hate his life so much that he would wish he'd never been born, then maybe this act would be justified, but how can you possibly know whether or not he/she will become depressed like that?
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Crysta
Member Avatar
wat

It's not comparable because it usually doesn't have a skull to begin with. :psypoke: Zygotes definitely don't.
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
Posted Image
Trophy Case


GODonPCP
 
I always give frying pans to female survivors in Dead Rising. It's really the only thing I'm confident they know how to use.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C475_1337
Member Avatar
One serious d00d

well darn u got me on that one :Psyduck:
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

Hmm...when WJC puts it like this (quote below), it almost sounds like euthanasia:

Quote:
 
By aborting, you are choosing death over life for that child without him/her having any say in the matter. If the kid was going to hate his life so much that he would wish he'd never been born, then maybe this act would be justified, but how can you possibly know whether or not he/she will become depressed like that?


Which leads to: Why is euthanasia banned but not abortion?
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Crysta
Member Avatar
wat

And... I reply with the same thing. You're not killing a person. :Psyduck:
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
Posted Image
Trophy Case


GODonPCP
 
I always give frying pans to female survivors in Dead Rising. It's really the only thing I'm confident they know how to use.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

Oh, right.
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Reaver
Troll

Simon
 
We can't? Why couldn't the abortion clinic require some kind of test (psychological, perhaps) to see if the potential patient was raped/will die in childbirth/neither happened and refuse to administer abortions to those who are simply doing it to shirk responsibility? Other businesses can limit their customers; why can't these clinics?
Because abortions are entirely situational and cannot be summed up into easy categories. A test would be nice and all, but people will fall into the cracks. Women who cannot possibily bear the responsibility of having a child for financial reasons, a common example, shouldn't be denied abortions. If you make situational rules for abortion, you're going to screw (no pun intended) a lot of women who deserve abortions out of abortions.

Simon
 
Oops, should've specified. "They" doesn't refer to the couple that had sex, but rather raped women in general. Like I said, I'm not expecting any rape victims to go through with the pregnancy and childbirth, but I will definitely say it's heroic of those women who do have the child and try to raise it despite the fact that they never wanted the kid.
It certainly is a turnaround, but at the same time I think we're both in agreement on this. Rape victims should be able to get abortions.

Simon
 
If it's not fair to hold one person responsible for the actions of herself and another person, then how is it fair to hold a child responsible for the actions of two other people? I will grant that it's not fair to the woman in this to have to suffer the consequences of her actions and the actions of her irresponsible partner, but it's even more unfair to make the innocent third party suffer the consequences of both parents' mistakes. It's not fair to the woman, no, but at least she helped to dig her own hole; the kid didn't do anything but exist.
If the "third party" isn't alive, then it changes things. If you abort the fetus, for example, you're not only helping the woman's standard of living but the stem cells, for example, can go to research and eventually curing what were once uncurable conditions. Aiding the living, to me, is more of a priority than sheltering potential life. Of course, your stance relies on death as a punishment.

Simon
 
That's why I'd hope that society changes before abortion policy. Societal change is first on my list of priorities as presi-erm, I'll save that for later, but I know better than to expect society to change because of an abortion ban. That's why I said this earlier (key part bolded for emphasis):
If it sells, chances are it isn't going out of style for quite a bit.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C475_1337
Member Avatar
One serious d00d

Crysta
Jun 29 2007, 12:06 PM
And... I reply with the same thing. You're not killing a person. :Psyduck:

Newborn infants aren't any better off than a fetus. The only real difference is that they're a bit bigger. Should the mother then be allowed to change her mind at the last moment, and kill the infant a few minutes after it is born?
Reikken: I'm halfway through reading it, but it's so bad; I can't finish.

---

Inui: You say Ilia holds more weight, but I don't, since Shin >>> Pegs and Sacae is more fun due to enemies that aren't fail and not having to move through forests all day.

---

SACAE. It's more fun than Ilia.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Reaver
Troll

STARSHOOP WOOPER
Jun 30 2007, 11:10 AM
Crysta
Jun 29 2007, 12:06 PM
And... I reply with the same thing. You're not killing a person. :Psyduck:

Newborn infants aren't any better off than a fetus. The only real difference is that they're a bit bigger. Should the mother then be allowed to change her mind at the last moment, and kill the infant a few minutes after it is born?

The other difference is that an infant can maintain homeostatis and a fetus can't. Homeostasis, the regulation of one's internal processes, is a required function for life. You also forget abortions are illegal in the third trimester where the fetus begins to take over homeostasis for itself...
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Phoenix Wright
Member Avatar
that moron that forgot this is s11

Before I continue, I'll restate my policy on abortion for clarification. I think that, for whatever reason, I've yet to explicitly state my policy.

~Women who are raped should be allowed abortions.
~Women who are at risk of dying in childbirth should be allowed abortions.
~Women who seek an abortion because they (and their partners) didn't think their cunning plan all the way through shouldn't be allowed abortions.

The last one's tough, but I see most instances (nay, basically all, I've yet to see otherwise at any rate) of the third conditional as a shirking of responsibility.

I'll also note that, on the specifics (cost of abortion vs cost of hospital room for period of labor and delivery), I'm pretty uneducated, so I might be off on statistics like those.

Quote:
 
Because abortions are entirely situational and cannot be summed up into easy categories. A test would be nice and all, but people will fall into the cracks. Women who cannot possibly bear the responsibility of having a child for financial reasons, a common example, shouldn't be denied abortions. If you make situational rules for abortion, you're going to screw (no pun intended) a lot of women who deserve abortions out of abortions.

And that's precisely where adoptions come in. There's the problem of adequate pay during the month or so prior to the pregnancy, but if you honestly think that you'll be getting pregnant in the next few years, you should definitely look for pregnancy leave as a job benefit. As for the hospital bills? If the woman in question can get a loan to pay for an abortion, then she could also get a loan for hospital bills, no?

Quote:
 
If the "third party" isn't alive, then it changes things. If you abort the fetus, for example, you're not only helping the woman's standard of living but the stem cells, for example, can go to research and eventually curing what were once not curable conditions. Aiding the living, to me, is more of a priority than sheltering potential life. Of course, your stance relies on death as a punishment.

Not aborting helps the standard of living for the baby, and having the child means you can get stem cells from the umbilical cord, so I don't see a difference here...other than, of course, the fact that live birth allows for...well, live birth, as opposed to a dead baby.

Quote:
 
If it sells, chances are it isn't going out of style for quite a bit.

Well, it happened to 60s clothes; with luck it'll happen to idiotic cultures too. ;>_>
Wirt
 
I conquered the world with nothing but diarrhea and depression.

Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
Reaver for the lulz
 
Fraulein Holls
Sep 14 2008, 06:16 PM
Some Kind Of Monster - Metallica

>> Metallica wub all of a sudden

Say, I know a member currently going by Ron DeLite who also loves Metallica, you two should totally hook up.
God of Thunder - KISS

rofl Chris
 
Chris says:
you know what
Chris says:
someone
Chris says:
once said to be
Chris says:
me*
Chris says:
when someone did
Chris says:
d(-_-)b
Chris says:
wtf, how'd they invert the b?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Yzarc
Member Avatar
Coxian

Simon the Suave
Jul 2 2007, 08:34 PM
~Women who are raped should be allowed abortions.
~Women who are at risk of dying in childbirth should be allowed abortions.

There's no reason to even say this. It goes without saying. No one here thinks you're THAT heartless, so stop reiterating this, because you're starting to sound like a broken record.

Simon
 
~Women who seek an abortion because they (and their partners) didn't think their cunning plan all the way through shouldn't be allowed abortions.

Condoms break. The pill isn't 100% reliable. I don't have much sympathy for those people that say "let's risk it" and then end up getting pregnant, but not all people that get pregnant are sluts that deserve it, married people or rape victims. There are those that use protection, that don't have sex with a whole bunch of guys, and that still get pregnant. And you think they should be forced to bear that burden? It's not just about the bills of childbirth, it's about walking around with a pregnant belly for months. If you're a teen and you have that, no one takes you seriously. You become outcasted from society, friends, family, everyone. Or you could keep an ACCIDENT between you, your boyfriend, your parents and a few doctors. Or, instead of your parents, a judge in some particular cases.
Posted ImagePosted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Fully Featured & Customizable Free Forums
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 8
  • 14



Theme by Lewis of the ZetaBoard Theme Zone, Outline and Talk Themes