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iraq; for freedom or oil
Topic Started: Aug 10 2007, 02:51 AM (778 Views)
Darkhero
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Well the thing is Sadam is dead now. It is true, I did not gather enough information to speak.

After reading your post Sent, I do remember something about bombs or bio-bombs. But I did not hear about ever finding them. :(
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cool story bro


Phased withdrawal is the best plan to leave this IMO. It's pretty obvious that American troops aren't really having a very positive effect over there anyway. What difference will it make if we leave?
A NEW WORLD ORDER
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There is a light that never goes out...

Reaver
Aug 12 2007, 07:33 PM
Eniomus
Aug 12 2007, 02:46 PM
Pulling out isn't an option now. A lot of damage was caused by the troops being there, and it needs to be fixed.

Yes it is. We need to tell the Iraqi government that we're going to begin to pull troops (as Crysta said, it's not going to be immediate) on a certain date, that will encourage growth in Iraq by Iraqis rather than America's influence drawing more fire and attention from terrorists.

Giving a set date for withdrawal is the same thing as telling the Insurgents when the best time to overthrow the country is.
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Yzarc
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Coxian

Iyasu
Aug 12 2007, 03:43 PM
i don't think we will ever completely leave.

there is still iran or saudi arabia that despise us because we support israel. and i dont even think they like us much either.

in short we have no friends but keep trying...making things worse

Saudia Arabia likes us because we like them. Same with Pakistan. Though, that's not to say these two countries are more or less evil than Iran.
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cool story bro


Sentenal
Aug 13 2007, 12:19 AM
Reaver
Aug 12 2007, 07:33 PM
Eniomus
Aug 12 2007, 02:46 PM
Pulling out isn't an option now. A lot of damage was caused by the troops being there, and it needs to be fixed.

Yes it is. We need to tell the Iraqi government that we're going to begin to pull troops (as Crysta said, it's not going to be immediate) on a certain date, that will encourage growth in Iraq by Iraqis rather than America's influence drawing more fire and attention from terrorists.

Giving a set date for withdrawal is the same thing as telling the Insurgents when the best time to overthrow the country is.

There really isn't much of a country to overthrow anyway. Apparently the Iraqi government hasn't even met any of its goals that Bush set. All there is there is chaos. It's obvious our presence isn't doing much, so why not leave?
A NEW WORLD ORDER
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Admin
There is a light that never goes out...

Phil
Aug 13 2007, 03:51 AM
Sentenal
Aug 13 2007, 12:19 AM
Reaver
Aug 12 2007, 07:33 PM
Eniomus
Aug 12 2007, 02:46 PM
Pulling out isn't an option now. A lot of damage was caused by the troops being there, and it needs to be fixed.

Yes it is. We need to tell the Iraqi government that we're going to begin to pull troops (as Crysta said, it's not going to be immediate) on a certain date, that will encourage growth in Iraq by Iraqis rather than America's influence drawing more fire and attention from terrorists.

Giving a set date for withdrawal is the same thing as telling the Insurgents when the best time to overthrow the country is.

There really isn't much of a country to overthrow anyway. Apparently the Iraqi government hasn't even met any of its goals that Bush set. All there is there is chaos. It's obvious our presence isn't doing much, so why not leave?

Thats not true at all. The majority of the fighting is around Bagdad, not the entire country, its just skewed to to look like that. Plus, they have already made their own Consitution, and had several successful elections.
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Soja
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves

Iraq has problems more severe than most countries. But this sort of civic instability is nothing new to the region; regime changes by force have happened in the Middle East many times in the past, with less charitable mission statements.

What good that has been made from the sacrifices of our troops shouldn't be devalued by the force and magnitude of the virulence exhibited by centuries old hatreds.

We're in it now, and we have to fix what primarily helped to break.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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Crysta
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wat

Because it's centuries old hatreds makes me doubt that we're the right people to fix it, principles aside. :psypoke:
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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GODonPCP
 
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Reaver
Troll

Sentenal
Aug 13 2007, 12:19 AM
Giving a set date for withdrawal is the same thing as telling the Insurgents when the best time to overthrow the country is.

It also gets the Iraqi government in-gear so they can defend themselves, most sane governments will have a military and most sane cities will have a police force, get some training under their belts and then we're golden.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Yzarc
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Coxian

Soja
Aug 13 2007, 05:02 AM
Iraq has problems more severe than most countries. But this sort of civic instability is nothing new to the region; regime changes by force have happened in the Middle East many times in the past, with less charitable mission statements.

What good that has been made from the sacrifices of our troops shouldn't be devalued by the force and magnitude of the virulence exhibited by centuries old hatreds.

We're in it now, and we have to fix what primarily helped to break.

You're absolutely right. All we have to do is convince the Shiites that the Sunnis aren't bad people and vise versa. Then maybe the "legitimate" government will start treating its people fairly and the Sunnis won't attack innocent Shiites. It's so easy, why didn't we think of it before?
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cool story bro


I'd just like to point out that by the time Bush leaves office, It will have been around 5 years in Iraq trying to "fix the mess we started". At that point I think we need to realize that this really isn't fixable our way. Pull out, and force them to solve their own problems.
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Soja
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves

Hoho, this is gonna be fun.

Crysta
 
Because it's centuries old hatreds makes me doubt that we're the right people to fix it, principles aside.

Note the craters in the ground, the razed buildings, the broken infrastructures and loose elements of the old guard wreaking havoc. That's what we have to fix, and to what I was referring to. The social aspect is the responsibility of the citizens.

Reaver
 
It also gets the Iraqi government in-gear so they can defend themselves, most sane governments will have a military and most sane cities will have a police force, get some training under their belts and then we're golden.

You have to defend the people you're training first. You do realize that it takes around two years to fully train a police officer, four years a specialist officer (special weapons and tactics), and the same for a military specialist, right?

What the phased withdrawal plan wants us to do is retreat into our little bases and "provide training," leaving security up to the Iraqis themselves, ready or unready as they may be. I forget what the count of the Iraqi Army currently is, but I do know that it's not at the same number of personnel that we have over there. We had to add to that, by the way, so we know it's not enough to maintain security at the moment.

Police officers would be sufficient if it were street gangs that were on the loose, but the militias are just that -- paramilitary groups with heavy firepower. Military means are thus necessary to rout them.

Yzarc Drowsnam
 
You're absolutely right. All we have to do is convince the Shiites that the Sunnis aren't bad people and vise versa. Then maybe the "legitimate" government will start treating its people fairly and the Sunnis won't attack innocent Shiites. It's so easy, why didn't we think of it before?

At best I can translate this sarcastic, cynical statement into something that doesn't have anything to do with the post it's replying to. If I'm wrong correct me, but I interpret your words as, "These nubs will continue to kill each other no matter what we or any government say."

Those divides have been there since before the rise of the Ottoman Empire. Our job is to stabilize a government and military that is equipped to enforce order and regulate such violence that results from those divides. The violence going on now stunts the growth of such an entity. Even then, the average reconstruction period post-war for most countries is around 30 years.

Ideally we'd have everything wrapped up by the end of this decade. But we can't be sure, war is, after all, unpredictable.

Phil
 
I'd just like to point out that by the time Bush leaves office, It will have been around 5 years in Iraq trying to "fix the mess we started". At that point I think we need to realize that this really isn't fixable our way. Pull out, and force them to solve their own problems.

Five years in reconstruction is nothing. Nothing. It took Indonesia 10 years to set up their own government after declaring independence, and they've only had sporadic violence compared to Iraq.

The AP reports that even Democrats, staunchest war critics as they are, praise recent fords forward in Iraq by the military. [Source]

Robert Gates, member of the Iraq Study Group and now defense secretary, reported on military progress in kicking al-Qaeda out of several formerly volatile regions. [Source]

Political progress has been little, though the movements made were critical in these recent successes. If this is kept up, overall success is very real a possibility.

However, ending involvement and withdrawing would make it significantly harder to accomplish these goals, being that none of them would have been possible without the U.S.'s involvement.

:psypoke: In light of the most late post, this is getting dangerously off-topic. This is about causes, not effects.
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Mirar on Sep 8 2007
06:08 PM
nigga please
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How to Get Banned From FEFF
1. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to verbally warn you.
2. Break a rule enough that a moderator has to actually warn you.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
4. Repeat steps 1 and 2 again, getting suspended for a few days.
5. Repeat steps 1 and 2 yet again, getting suspended for a week and Underdogged.
6. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
7. Do all this in the course of a month.
8. ????
9. PROFIT!!!

Congratulations! You've been banned from FEFF!
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Yzarc
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Coxian

Soja
Aug 13 2007, 06:37 PM
Yzarc Drowsnam
 
You're absolutely right. All we have to do is convince the Shiites that the Sunnis aren't bad people and vise versa. Then maybe the "legitimate" government will start treating its people fairly and the Sunnis won't attack innocent Shiites. It's so easy, why didn't we think of it before?

At best I can translate this sarcastic, cynical statement into something that doesn't have anything to do with the post it's replying to. If I'm wrong correct me, but I interpret your words as, "These nubs will continue to kill each other no matter what we or any government say."

Those divides have been there since before the rise of the Ottoman Empire. Our job is to stabilize a government and military that is equipped to enforce order and regulate such violence that results from those divides. The violence going on now stunts the growth of such an entity. Even then, the average reconstruction period post-war for most countries is around 30 years.

Ideally we'd have everything wrapped up by the end of this decade. But we can't be sure, war is, after all, unpredictable.

Wrong. The purpose of my post was to say that there is nothing we can do to ease the tension between Shiites and Sunnis. Absolutely nothing. Am I saying that it's impossible for Iraq to stabilize? No. But I am saying that there's nothing that we can do to help it.
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