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| Brawl Tier List | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 20 2008, 10:11 AM (5,534 Views) | |
| Cubic | May 27 2008, 08:05 PM Post #256 |
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ZA WARUDO
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Which is what we're sayinggggg. It's easy to bypass his SA frames, so all you have to do is get him down a tiny bit and h'es done fore. Fox's Shine comes to mind. |
[ currently~fulfilling my focus ]![]() ~Click to visit my Youtube page, where you can watch various playthroughs! | |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | May 27 2008, 08:07 PM Post #257 |
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lol, no. It's not fact. Just because someone beats the best MK in the world with Yoshi does not mean Yoshi should go up in tiers. Analysis > that being passed off as evidence. It alludes to fact. It is not actual fact.
If you're not going to explain yourself, you're wrong. You're a debater. I'm surprised you don't know that already. I've understood everything you've said and I'm offering arguments. Sure, you know more about the game, but what does knowing more about it matter unless you tell people what you know? If it's a fault to want to know about the game, then why did you make this topic?
He can't continuously f-tilt through Fox's or Falco's lasers; Falco's comes out too fast for him to be able to f-tilt through each hit of it (the closer he gets, the more that startup animation prevents him from stopping the laser), and Fox's can rack up huge damage on him without him being able to do anything about it. Toon Link and Link can arrow cancel and fire arrows at lightning speed, along with pressuring him with boomerangs (even if he f-tilts through these, an arrow or bomb that follows up will get him; he can't successively f-tilt fast enough to stop both hits). And both have bombs that can destroy his stuff. Lucario's fully charged Aura Sphere and Samus' blaster can also break through both jab and f-tilt. I'm not sure about charged Sheik needles. DK's f-tilt is not fast enough to stop Pit Arrows, either. Neither is his jab. Even if DK jab cancels to stop the arrows, it's easy to mess up, and one mess up makes it hard to get back into the groove. DK himself has no counter projectiles. As for exploding projectiles: Snake's side-B explodes. Samus' side-B explodes. Din's fire explodes. Etc. Plus, there's non-projectile camping, which makes DK approach. A lot of his approach moves have a significant amount of lag attached to them (f-tilt has a few frames; his B moves obviously do, f-air and d-air both have lag). No, not as much lag as Ike or something, but it's significant. N-air and u-air don't have lag but seem to have limited reach. Jiggs can camp WoP on him, for example.
Some of the time you don't even need any effort to get him that far down - moves that hit you at weird angles, such as G&W's d-smash, do it instantly. Anyone with a good spike can spike him down there from way high above. In fact, if he's far enough out to the side, people with good aerial range like Marth, ROB, or MK can easily hit him down far enough so that he can't recover. His d-air and f-air are too laggy and his u-air doesn't have enough range to stop such an attempt. So he's limited to using his n-air and b-air. Using b-air is also not always possible, since if you're knocked to the sides, most of the time you're knocked in a way so that you face the stage, making it risky/difficult to turn around while being chased off the edge. He can't even recover from the bottom tip of FD. That's definitely not h4x recovery. No, his reovery isn't bottom tier. But it's certainly worse than almost everyone above and around him on the tier lists - MK, Snake, Dedede, Marth, Toon Link, Game and Watch, Falco, ROB, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Pit, Fox, Squirtle, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, Kirby, and Sheik, to an extent, have more range than him by far. The last hit of Wolf's up-B can be DI'ed out of, but Wolf still has tons more range than DK does with his up-B, and can get almost to the middle of FD by using side-B near the ledge, and do it much faster, too. Luigi has huge horizontal recovery which he can even couple with his vertical recovery, and both beat out DK in terms of range. Even Wario can beat DK out when he uses his bike. Charizard can glide, and Peach has her little float thing. Ike has huge vertical and horizontal range and also has super armor on his up-B. Samus has much better range than he does by far, and Sonic definitely does. Hell, ZSS has more range, even, despite being a tether. A a lot of the time, he's going to need to grab the edge, so you know exactly what he's going to do. Other Top and High Tiers aren't impeded by this - many even have multiple methods of recovery.
I never said Link > DK. I was addressing your statement about "huge range and power." Of course he has huge range and power. That was admitted in the first post that I made about him. DK is better than Link, yes. I'm only saying that he should be lower High rather than upper High. EDIT: Bah, didn't see the posts in between until now: Also, being fat also makes him easier to hit and combo/CG. |
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| Cubic | May 27 2008, 08:12 PM Post #258 |
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ZA WARUDO
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You missed him moving Wario up a tier completely because of him beating in a tourney.
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[ currently~fulfilling my focus ]![]() ~Click to visit my Youtube page, where you can watch various playthroughs! | |
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| Admin | May 27 2008, 08:14 PM Post #259 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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Guys guys guys... Tier Lists reflect the current Metagame. If DKs are bashing face right now, and are doing very good, you don't have to explain why. If they are doing good in tournaments, they get a higher spot. Why? Because Metagame wise, they are pwning. Smash-Theory doesn't make Tier Lists. |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | May 27 2008, 08:18 PM Post #260 |
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No, I got that. I addressed it a page or so back, I believe.
What are you talking about? Look at Inui's comment: That's player error. DK's recovery is just fine. What the players do in a certain match does not represent the ideal. A Yoshi who beats a h4x MK might simply be better than the MK player. Look at Azen. He beats h4x players that use Snake and MK and such with Ike. Does that make Ike awesome? No. Sure, quantitative evidence does indeed help us determine tier lists - but to give so much emphasis to them is both ridiculous and inane. Even with players of approximately equal skill level, there are some factors that impede proper judgment. Not so with theory. I'd rather have theory and then try to apply it in-game than have in-game data and apply it to theory. It just doesn't work that way. |
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| Othin | May 27 2008, 08:22 PM Post #261 |
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That one guy who never really leaves
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Player error can only drag calculations off in one direction. Just because it's possible to do worse than you're to be able to be doesn't mean it's possible to do better than you're able to be. When people can do better than they're "supposed" to be able to be, that means the "supposed" is off. I assume you have a better explanation for how players can do better than the theory says they should be, in a game with no random factors, other than the theory being off? The fact that even I get this really says something. |
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| Admin | May 27 2008, 08:23 PM Post #262 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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@Solide: Hey, what are YOU talking about? If you want to talk about his Tier List, look at the first line of every one of his posts: "My personal tier list based on my tournament and personal experiences using the characters and fighting against them:" See? Tier Lists are based on TOURNAMENT PERFORMANCE. Ideally, in SSBM, Bowser's Up-B will beat out nearly every single move in the game, other than Shine, since it comes out so fast. In Theory, Bowser would be untouchable. But obviously the Tier Lists didn't show that. They showed the Metagame, as in actuality Bowsers got raped. Or you could even look at the original Tier Lists for Melee. Sheik was considered the best character in the game. Thats because at the time, Sheiks were the best. Then Space Animals started to dominate, so Fox/Falco got top tier. Tier Lists don't reflect theory. They reflect the current metagame. |
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| Inui | May 27 2008, 08:28 PM Post #263 |
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Power of Flower
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QFT Bowser's Up B actually beats Shine, btw. That's how good Bowser is in Super Smash Theory Fighter Melee, lol.
PRiDE beat Mew2King's Meta Knight before by using the chaingrab on FD, lol.
I'm a Fire Emblem debater. I actually have peers for that around here. For Smash, I do not. The gap between me and everyone else is just far too large. I'll tell you.
Whoa, better characters can camp him out? Shock and surprise! lol He can kill Fox and Falco at very low percent once he moves in. They can only laser camp him easily at FD. Platforms help him move around it. Powershield. Dodge. He can't f-tilt through a huge amount of stuff. That's why powershielding exists. Camping is indeed his big weakness. However, he can move around it and then do awesome stuff once he gets in. He can also get the advantage and force people to approach him, and then he can RAPE.
Samus's missles suck and are not spammable. Din's Fire can be hit, contrary to its explosive nature. F-tilt, if spaced, is nearly impossible to punish. B-air is amazing. Jiggs can't WoP him. Jiggs' moves lose to DK's. He can charge a DK punch and then super armour through it. Super armour with up B. Etc. Then you go on to show that he loses to top tiers, which is obvious. Everyone loses to them. Too bad he's not mega-raped by anyone. He can kill top tiers at 60-70% as soon as they make a mistake or DK forces them to approach. |
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| Admin | May 27 2008, 08:31 PM Post #264 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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? Doesn't his Up-B have a 4 frame start up, compared to Shine's 1 frame start up? Wouldn't that make Shine beat it? |
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| Inui | May 27 2008, 08:34 PM Post #265 |
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Power of Flower
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Invincibility on the first three frames. He'd be invincible through the shine, and then hit. Bowser's too good in theory. |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | May 27 2008, 08:49 PM Post #266 |
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-I don't know what you mean. Of course it's that way. What would prevent it from being that way? -What? No, a player doing differently than predicted for his character in a particular match-up does not make the theory incorrect. That just means that the player is better/worse than his opponent. Or the player makes mistakes that his opponent has learned how to exploit. Or, perhaps, he has learned his opponent's character so perfectly that he can simply react better to the actions of that particular character.
They shouldn't be based entirely on that, for obvious reasons. If they are, there's really no reason to argue one character as being better than another. Just look at tournament rankings and that's all you need. No reason to actually discuss anything. Forget talking about range or priority or any of that. None of it matters if all that we're concerned about is in-game performance.
I don't know anything about Bowser in SSBM, so I don't know about that, but I'm absolutely certain that you there's more to it than what you're giving me. There are certainly ways to beat a Bowser who spams that move, and theory can put those ways into words. Seriously, wtf. You're giving me an example of stupid theory - ill-thought out and conceived. To counter, I could give you examples of scrub tournaments.
Theory discusses the current metagame and puts it into words. If DKs are winning, theory will tell you why they are winning. Without the why, for all we know, it could be that people are just doing stupid things by mistake, or are not exploiting weaknesses that they should. Theory can't extend beyond what we players can actually do - that's impossible. Theory can only try to eliminate such factors as difference in skill. Again, I'm not suggesting to only use theory. I'm saying that we shouldn't base tier placings off of just tournament evidence alone. What's been done in the past is irrelevant, and citing it only exemplifies my point about you only using experimental evidence.
Ok? That just reinforces my statement.
Those same "better characters" have much more difficulty camping those around him. That is the point. He has a glaring weakness in terms of camping, and other Top/upper High Tiers don't.
Everyone can powershield and dodge. That doesn't mean camping sucks or anything. It just means there are ways to avoid it - great. If there weren't, tiers would be all about camping and nothing else. DK has more trouble with camping than others do.
No. I didn't only compare him to Top Tiers. I compared him to people from every tier and talked about their recoveries vs. his, not their actual worth vs. his.
That doesn't mean you can brush off arguments with "you're wrong" or something like that. You're not judging by the arguments, but by the players. And that's so horrendously elitist and inane that I don't even know what to say about it. And that actually has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Being a debater means you should value logic more than experience; that's why I made the reference to your history as a debater. If you want to discuss Smash (like you did in your last post), let's do that. If you want to post what happened in tournaments and assert "I'm better" as your reasoning, then there's no reason to even read anything in this topic. |
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| Harmato | May 27 2008, 08:53 PM Post #267 |
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Make matchup chart. There, you have a tier list. |
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| Admin | May 27 2008, 08:56 PM Post #268 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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Solid... I'm sorry, but Tier Lists are based off of Matchups. And Matchups are reflected by the current metagame of Brawl. Theory doesn't effect it if DKs are doing good. These aren't Fire Emblem Tier Lists. And no, in theory, Bowser can apparently Up-B through any move in SSBM, because it starts up faster than every single move, other than Shine, and apparently has invisibility during the first 3 frames of it. Priority is determined by frames. In the hands of a perfect machine, Bowser can't be touched, because he will hit you out of all your moves. And combine that with a ledge, and you have uber gay Smash Brothers Theory. But Bowser was still low tier despite this lol
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| Inui | May 27 2008, 08:58 PM Post #269 |
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Power of Flower
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Solid, reference your sig for my current opinion, lol. The quote of me you apparently just removed? Anyways... I explained how DK can get around stuff, and that he punishes severely once he gets in. QFT @ Sentenal. I almost forgot there's another tournament player here because he lost to Grady. <3 Sentenal. |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | May 27 2008, 09:06 PM Post #270 |
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What does that have to do with logic mattering more than experience? OK, so we see that DKs are doing good. Then we figure out why they're doing good. Once we know that, we can find out if there are ways to counter or if there are things that people are missing when they're playing. That's the whole point of theory. Smash discussions would not exist if only tournament evidence mattered.
Seriously, wtf. You're giving me an example of stupid theory - ill-thought out and conceived. To counter, I could give you examples of scrub tournaments. If players can't actually do it, it's not good theory. It's just something dumb someone came up with. Theory puts the metgame into words and attempts to explain why it's happening. Tier lists should tell me which character I can use to be better than someone using another character, when we are of equal skill. Tournament evidence alone can't do this. Tournament evidence qualified by analysis can. If you can't understand this, I'm done here.
You're not judging by the arguments, but by the players. And that's so horrendously elitist and inane that I don't even know what to say about it. |
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