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Brawl Tier List
Topic Started: Apr 20 2008, 10:11 AM (5,533 Views)
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There is a light that never goes out...

Seriously dude, your idea of what a Tier List isn't what a Tier List actually is. This is going in circles.

Also, unless you actually know shit about melee, you can't possibly call Bowser's Theory Place "bad" theory.
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Inui
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Power of Flower

SolidSense
May 27 2008, 09:06 PM
What does that have to do with logic mattering more than experience? OK, so we see that DKs are doing good. Then we figure out why they're doing good. Once we know that, we can find out if there are ways to counter or if there are things that people are missing when they're playing. That's the whole point of theory.

Smash discussions would not exist if only tournament evidence mattered.

Seriously, wtf. You're giving me an example of stupid theory - ill-thought out and conceived. To counter, I could give you examples of scrub tournaments.

If players can't actually do it, it's not good theory. It's just something dumb someone came up with.

I told you why. DK kills everyone at low damage, survives a long time, and actually has decent ways of working around camping thanks to super armour and f-tilt. He also has h4x gimps due to multiple spikes, awesome b-air, and cargo throw.

Tournament evidence is the most important thing. DK's are raping. Characters above him aren't even placing as high, but they're still ranked higher. Sheik's better than Marth even though Marth's placed a bit higher overall and the best three players mained him.

How is it stupid? Also, scrub tournaments don't matter.

In Brawl, stuff is easier. You CAN just time powershields, dodges, and f-tilts to work around camping with DK. When he finally gets in, he dishes out major pain. If he forces you to come to him by gaining the advantage, then ggnore.
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Reaver
Troll

If tier lists were 100% theory, then characters such as Ganondorf and Ike would be best simply because they have the strongest moves and will KO most easily. Sentenal beats this point over the head with his Bowser argument, so I trust I don't need to go too in depth. However...

If tier lists were based 100% on empirical information from tournaments and events, then the players using a said character would affect the worth of said character. You could have Kirbys and Samuses running top tier if they win tournaments and that would suffice to fit the definition Sentenal and Inui seem to be arguing around: tier lists are ways of judging characters through the metagame based off of tournament results.

If you haven't seen both of those definitions are wrong, then you have issues. Why? Because neither definition accurately describes the elements in the tier list. What major tournaments has Snake won? Shouldn't Wario be God Tier because he won a massive tournament in California?

Solide has the definition right: it's a way of explaining what's going on in the metagame. Sentenal is right by saying that you can't base it all on theory, and he is also right that tournament evidence counts. However, he places too little emphasis on the theory and too great emphasis on the evidence. As Solide has suggested, you use the theory to explain the high placings. If DK's are raping in tournaments, theory would not only explain why DK's are raping in tournaments but the evidence would prove the theory.

But let me provide an example to give you my point: Pit is one of the best campers in the game. We can reason this through his good jump, his amazing arrows to gain an advantage, and the ability to hold a position well.

The empirical evidence.

At the third minute look how Pit just controls the right side of the stage, Snake has trouble approaching and is stuck shielding. Thus the argument holds.

You need both in tandem and Solide has proved that.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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AdamNW
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Needs moar Sety

I don't feel like debating it, but I would just love to know why Peach is lower then Link assuming the first page tier list is the most recent.
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Formerly: Sety
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Reaver
Troll

Sety
May 27 2008, 11:19 PM
I don't feel like debating it, but I would just love to know why Peach is lower then Link assuming the first page tier list is the most recent.

I put the most recent tier list in the first post.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Inui
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Power of Flower

Sety
May 27 2008, 10:19 PM
I don't feel like debating it, but I would just love to know why Peach is lower then Link assuming the first page tier list is the most recent.

I changed that on my most recent list, actualy.

My personal tier list based on my tournament and personal experiences using the characters and fighting against them:

-God Tier-
Meta Knight
Snake

-Top Tier-
Dedede
Marth
Toon Link
Game and Watch
Falco
ROB
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit

-High Tier-
Fox
Squirtle
Jigglypuff
Donkey Kong
Wario
Pikachu
Zelda
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Sheik
Charizard

-Mid Tier-
Wolf
Peach
Ike
Lucas
Bowser
Olimar
Lucario
Mario

-Low Tier-
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Ness
Captain Falcon
Ivysaur

-Bottom Tier-
Sonic
Ganondorf
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Leon
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GUUUUNDAAAAAAAM

I'm surprised how low Ness is, is that extreme lowness because of how weak he is at being chain-grabbed?
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Inui
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Leon
May 27 2008, 11:46 PM
I'm surprised how low Ness is, is that extreme lowness because of how weak he is at being chain-grabbed?

He sucks at fighting, sucks at camping, and sucks at living. I see him failing in every area.

Infinites were not taken into account. They are banned.
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(*Jman*)
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Kakatte Koi!

Sentenal
May 27 2008, 08:56 PM
And no, in theory, Bowser can apparently Up-B through any move in SSBM, because it starts up faster than every single move, other than Shine, and apparently has invisibility during the first 3 frames of it.  Priority is determined by frames.  In the hands of a perfect machine, Bowser can't be touched, because he will hit you out of all your moves.  And combine that with a ledge, and you have uber gay Smash Brothers Theory.  But Bowser was still low tier despite this lol  :NomNomNom:

This assumes that you are continually going to throw out moves at him. Bowser would have to have perfect powershielding to stop projectile camping and he would have to still be in up B range of his opponent to you know, use the move. Nobody good at zoning is going to throw out moves where he can up B to hit the zoning player.

Inui
 
He also has h4x gimps due to...and cargo throw.

Hahaha, try that on Magus or Ryoko. Oh wait, you don't even need to try it on them, you can try it on ANYONE in Brawl because mashing out is a PIECE AH CAKE! Consistently gimp me with cargo throw plz :).

Inui
 
He can also get the advantage and force people to approach him, and then he can RAPE.

I don't see how you come to this conclusion. You don't have to rush your opponent down to win the match if you're down by 1%.
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Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto
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Super Saiyan SolidSense
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Quote:
 
I told you why.


Before, you were only using "these pplz wins tourneys" as your argument.

Quote:
 
Tournament evidence is the most important thing.



Maybe in a tournament rankings list. That's easy to make. That doesn't require any discussion.

If tier lists are based solely on tournament evidence, why the hell are we even having discussions?

Tournament evidence can be marred by such factors as differences in player skill, a particular region favoring a certain character, etc. Using concrete evidence to analyze tournament evidence eliminates such factors as much as possible. Why else would we discuss such things as range and priority? They have no meaning if not applied.

Quote:
 
Characters above him aren't even placing as high, but they're still ranked higher.


That directly contradicts your whole argument about tournament evidence mattering more than anything else. Why would he place lower than those characters if they aren't placing as high as he is? According to your logic, they should be.

Quote:
 
How is it stupid?


I don't know Melee Bowser, so I couldn't tell you. I'm positive that there's more to it, however. See spam's post.

Quote:
 
Also, scrub tournaments don't matter.


You're missing the point.

Seriously, wtf. You're giving me an example of stupid theory - ill-thought out and conceived. To counter, I could give you examples of scrub tournaments.

Giving me examples of theory that is obviously incorrect and cannot be applied (since people can't actually do it) is the same as me giving you tournament rankings from newb tourneys. There's absolutely no difference.

And good job ignoring Reaver's post.


Look, I'm not saying that theory is the be-all, end-all decider of tier lists. But what you're basing this tier list off of makes it more of a tournament ranking list than a tier list. That kind of labelling is deceiving, and I wouldn't have visited the topic in the first place if I had known it was based solely on tournament rankings. There's simply no point - what can you do to change a tournament ranking list? Nothing.

You can change a tier list - tier lists by nature are meant to be subjective. Again, that's not meant to say that theory >>> all. But we can certainly use things such as range and priority and see why certain characters are winning in tournaments, and try to find ways to beat them. Or, since you know more about smash, you can explain why certain characters win in certain match-ups. What you do right now, with "X is rape; you're a scrub so you wouldn't understand" is not only elitist, but it's also pretty meaningless.

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Inui
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Power of Flower

My personal tier list based on my tournament and personal experiences using the characters and fighting against them:

-God Tier-
Meta Knight
Snake

-Top Tier-
Dedede
Marth
Game and Watch
Toon Link
Falco
ROB
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit

-High Tier-
Fox
Squirtle
Donkey Kong
Wario
Jigglypuff
Pikachu
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Lucario
Kirby
Sheik

-Mid Tier-
Charizard
Wolf
Peach
Olimar
Ike
Lucas
Bowser
Mario

-Low Tier-
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Ness
Captain Falcon
Ivysaur

-Bottom Tier-
Sonic
Ganondorf


*Zelda/Sheik used together properly is top tier, probably right under Marth.
*Squirtle without being weighed down by Ivysaur would be top tier, or possibly god tier, but Pokemon Trainer with all three characters used at high level is top tier anyways.
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Greth (OLD)
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There is a light that never goes out...

God Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake

Top Tier:
Dedede
Marth
Game and Watch
Toon Link
Falco
ROB
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit

High Tier:
Fox
Squirtle
Donkey Kong
Wario
Jigglypuff
Pikachu
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Lucario
Kirby
Ike

Mid Tier:
Yoshi
Charizard
Wolf
Olimar
Sheik
Lucas
Bowser
Mario

Low Tier:
Peach
Link
Samus
Ness
Captain Falcon
Ivysaur

Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Sonic

yes mine was based on Lucas'.

No, it's not exactly the same.
Has been known as:
mrmastodon, Greth, MF Greth, L, Shu, Sailor Star Healer

Voted most manly last time, and most underrated twice in a row, shit yeah!
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Inui
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Power of Flower

Play Kashif's Sheik and Peach on Wi-Fi. You put them too low.
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Leon
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GUUUUNDAAAAAAAM

I like Squirtle, but haven't seen any vids on him. Got any?
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Inui
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Power of Flower

You'd be just as adept at finding them as me. Just use YouTube. Try searching for "Mexi" or "MexiMadness." He's the best PT in my region.
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