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Brawl Tier List
Topic Started: Apr 20 2008, 10:11 AM (5,530 Views)
(*Jman*)
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Inui
 
Azen does well...with anyone.  Azen almost lost to Boss with Pikachu.  Futile vs HugS wasn't grand finals at that huge event.  HugS only got 7th, I believe.  Futile beat DSF, and is currently ranked top on the West Coast, and he mains Wario.  Pikachu doesn't do that anywhere.  What Pikachus have you seen do anything in our region?  Azen.  That's it.


You raised Lucario on the tier list because of Azen ;). If his performance with a character doesn't matter then you shouldn't have done that. Whoops @ that not being grand finals, Bum linked it as Finals in the NYC weekly thread so I assumed it was grand finals. That's still pretty sad though if that was winners or losers finals.

Inui
 
How is Sheik and/or Zelda used alone better than a character like Wario, Kirby, and Fox?  I just don't see it, and I've seen and played both your Zelda/Sheik and Ryoko's.


The last time you played my Sheik and my Zelda was a loooooong time ago and since you brought that up the same probably goes for Ryoko's. How are they better alone then any of those three? Well, how Sheik does amazing vs Snake should be enough to put her above all of them imo. Her diminished ftilt combos basically everyone for massive damage. End the combo with an upsmash and they're like 2-3 hits away from death. She has amazing edgeguarding. Ftilt spaced on shield is hard to punish because it comes out really quick. Spaced fair to jab on shield can't be shieldgrabbed by Dedede so I'm going to assume that goes for everyone except people with tether grabs but you can just roll away after the fair to avoid the grab.

Unless you can consistently smash DI, Zelda's dtilt combos into itself until ~60. If you try to DI away and you're near the ledge you'll get dsmashed and sent at a horrifying angle off the stage making it very hard to recover if you didn't straight up die. It's also pretty easy for her to land her kicks on fat characters like Dedede and her upsmash is retarded. I've seen Bowser die at ~115 after a dtilt from that gay move.

What the hell does Fox have besides dair uptilt and praying a random smash hits? Nothing. He has landing lag on his side b, his up b has landing lag, his shine doesn't combo into anything, his throws don't lead into anything, his laser camping is awful, he gets CGed to 80 by Pikachu, 40 by Falco, and he's light as a feather.

Kirby having one good combo that doesn't work on a number of characters does not make him amazing. At least Zelda's dtilt and Sheik's ftilt work against basically everyone, I've never seen it not combo. And don't talk to me about "pseudo kirbycides" or "kirbycides" because if you're standing two millimeters on the stage if Kirby tries to suck you up you'll just slide towards the side of the stage until he falls under the ledge height and then you stop.

Inui
 
Lucas's camping is easy to work around since it's just SH PK Fire and PK Thunder sometimes from far away.

Lucas is also very easy to both punish and kill.

I three and twostocked Comp's Lucas in tourny and he's supposed to be decent.

How is Lucas NOT trash?


It's easy to work around for GOOD characters. Not every character is good. I wasn't talking about his matchups against people like Meta when I said he should be above Ike, I was talking about characters who are below Peach on the tier list. Everyone above her rapes both of them anyways.

How is Lucas NOT trash? I didn't feel helpless on Corneria against Trevor's Dedede the way YOU did with Marth. I only lost because I killed myself when he took one stock with an infinite. Is that how YOU lost? No, I don't think so. Lucas' dsmash hits behind him and in front of him so if an opponent is near the ledge and shielding they'll get pushed off if they hold shield, they'll get hit if they roll behind, and they'll get hit if they sidestep. You can't punish that. You can only punish him messing up his spacing.

Inui
 
It's true that Toon Link has projectile camping, but he's both easier to chaingrab and lacks a 1-frame escape move.  Marth's safe-on-shield options are less, but they are all he needs.  Dedede can't do anything against a Marth that both spaces and camps, as I have learned and seen thanks to Emblem Lord.  Dedede still does fine in the match, but so does Marth.


It doesn't matter if he doesn't have a 1-frame escape move if that will only get Marth out of the situation if Dedede messes up. You shouldn't base you argument expecting someone to mess up a chaingrab that is easy to do. Your points about Marth vs Dedede do not refute what I said about Toon Link doing well in the matchup.

Inui
 
Marth also utterly crushes most of the cast while I can't say the same about Toon Link.


Name matchups that Toon Link does not do good in. He can camp all the bad characters in the game without having to worry about anything.

Inui
 
Sethlon is indeed good, but that was his only win so far.  He's lost numerous times to people like Mr. 3000, Hylian, and T-Rex.


Sethlon 2-0ing T-Rex in the only set of them that is onlin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZK80maBMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhCt4BRjPC8&watch_response

The only set online of Sethlon against Mr. 3000 is from April 8th. That's within the first month of the game came out, I'm not going to count that.

Hylian also places high in Texas as well, losing to him doesn't make him bad.

Inui
 
Snake can hit him twice and do 40%.  Snake can kill Falco at extremely low percents with various options, going as low as 50%.  Snake can potentially kill Falco in three hits.  Snake outprioritizes Falco in almost every exchange.  Snake has a 4-frame, gigantic punisher, as well as a 3-frame jab.  Snake can counter-camp well enough to force Falco to approach him.


One grab takes Snake to at least 40. wtf as low as 50? Are you on drugs? Three hits? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. What are you going to counter camp with? Grenades aren't going to reach Falco if he's throwing his shine out and nikita is going to get blocked by shine on its way over.

Inui
 
I do not find Falco difficult to edgeguard, and that includes really good Falcos like Keitaro's.  If you know the f-b is coming, it's perfectly punishable.  Meta Knight doesn't care about Falco's camping, can gimp him, and punishes anything he does with 5-frame or less moves.


Yes if you know that the Falco player is a moron and is going to side b past you instead of landing on a top platform or going for the ledge it can be punished. That's about the only way to punish the recovery: If the Falco player recovers like an idiot. In Melee where Falco's recovery was worse and Marth had better edgeguarding options the only way to stop perfect side b sweetspot was to edgehog and it's basically impossible to stop him from recovering high. I find it most amusing that you are saying it is easy to edgeguard in this game when it is nigh impossible.

Inui
 
A lot of what you're saying against Snake and Meta Knight involves missed techs, improperly dealing with camping, improperly dealing with Falco's f-b, and getting grabbed consistently at low damage.  How do you not see this?


The laserlock setups involve very hard techs to land. You might as well say waveshine --> jab --> SHFFL upair doesn't combo in Melee against characters shine knocks down if you are going to say that missing techs is a bad excuse. Falco's forward b is not edgeguardable and getting grabs is not hard to do. I said nothing about camping. Falco doesn't beat them because of camping.

Inui
 
Falco doesn't shut it down.  He merely has a defense against it.  If he's down on percent, he can't camp shine all day.  His shine won't actually send every projectile ever back at the other person.  Toon Link's, for example, can be used in a way that Toon Link won't get hit by them when they bounce back.  This also applies to Snake's grenades and nikita, Pit's arrows, and basically any projectile besides lasers.


It doesn't matter if he doesn't send Toon Link's projectiles back to hit him if he's up on percent. The same goes for Snake's grenades, nikita Pit's arrows, and basically any projectile. Against any character that's trying to projectile camp him, Falco CAN shoot lasers against them. Having a defense that stops all projectiles means that if you're winning your opponent can't projectile camp you. If he's down he has to shoot lasers or approach but so what? At least he has a good projectile to camp with and can approach more safely with it rather than being simply forced to approach like basically every other character in the game.

Inui
 
Say "n-air and d-air can't get shieldgrabbed" to any character with a tether grab or Dedede.  Marth can't shieldgrab it, but he can f-b those moves out of shield.


Dair can't be shieldgrabbed by Dedede if you use it properly. If you're holding away from Marth then because you spaced the dair or nair to not get shieldgrabbed you are going to be far away enough that he isn't going to reach the last hit of sword dance but if he DOES go for it you can punish him with dash attack canceled into upsmash. LOL sorry that there's a grand total of TWO characters that don't suck that have tether grabs and Dedede can shieldgrab one of those moves. There are ~16 characters who Dedede can't chaingrab and a number of the characters he DOES chaingrab have ways around it but that doesn't keep you from thinking walk-offs should be banned. Surely three characters if 16+ don't.

Inui
 
Fuck that Keitaro Time shit.  I punished it almost every time with pivot f-b, and you can easily avoid it by just walking in the other direction.


I'm talking about when the jabs actually hit, not randomly throwing it out. If he got hit by side b after the jabs then he ended them too late and you can't "walk" in the other direction while you're getting hit by them. If you're talking about walking away from a Falco rapid jabbing the air, well that's a horrifyingly bad strategy in the first place and not what I was talking about.
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Inui
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Quote:
 
You raised Lucario on the tier list because of Azen . If his performance with a character doesn't matter then you shouldn't have done that. Whoops @ that not being grand finals, Bum linked it as Finals in the NYC weekly thread so I assumed it was grand finals. That's still pretty sad though if that was winners or losers finals.


Also because of Trevor's Lucario. I learned that Lucario is really good.

It's not even finals at all. HugS got 7th.

Quote:
 
It's easy to work around for GOOD characters. Not every character is good. I wasn't talking about his matchups against people like Meta when I said he should be above Ike, I was talking about characters who are below Peach on the tier list. Everyone above her rapes both of them anyways.


Link is a horrendous character. Money match my Link with Lucas. Lucas's camping isn't good enough to lock down anyone. How the hell is it?

Quote:
 
How is Lucas NOT trash? I didn't feel helpless on Corneria against Trevor's Dedede the way YOU did with Marth. I only lost because I killed myself when he took one stock with an infinite. Is that how YOU lost? No, I don't think so. Lucas' dsmash hits behind him and in front of him so if an opponent is near the ledge and shielding they'll get pushed off if they hold shield, they'll get hit if they roll behind, and they'll get hit if they sidestep. You can't punish that. You can only punish him messing up his spacing.


You had a way to recover your percent, and arguements based on banned stages hardly matter. The rest is about one move being good, and even Ganondord has a few good moves. What else does Lucas have? Easily gimped, generally easy to punish, lots of his moves come out slow, his priority in the air and his air game in general suck...

Quote:
 
It doesn't matter if he doesn't have a 1-frame escape move if that will only get Marth out of the situation if Dedede messes up. You shouldn't base you argument expecting someone to mess up a chaingrab that is easy to do. Your points about Marth vs Dedede do not refute what I said about Toon Link doing well in the matchup.


A hill can get him out, like at Lylat. He only needs one frame of error to get out. Toon Link doesn't have that, and the CG is harder to do on Marth in general.

Toon Link indeed does well, but Marth also does well, and perhaps better. I've beaten Trevor three times and have done very well against Jason and Emblem Lord beat Trevor twice. Eazy is probably the best Toon Link around and he lost to Lord Knight's Dedede, which is nowhere near as good as Jason's and not as good as Trevor's, and Trevor usually beats him. I'm just basing this stuff on what I see happen at tournaments.

Quote:
 
Name matchups that Toon Link does not do good in. He can camp all the bad characters in the game without having to worry about anything.


Toon Link is an amazing characters. "Bad" matches don't exist for him. I said Marth wins his matches by more. I don't see Toon Link having 80/20 and 70/30 vs half the characters like Marth does.

Quote:
 
Sethlon 2-0ing T-Rex in the only set of them that is onlin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZK80maBMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhCt4BRjPC8&watch_response

The only set online of Sethlon against Mr. 3000 is from April 8th. That's within the first month of the game came out, I'm not going to count that.

Hylian also places high in Texas as well, losing to him doesn't make him bad.


T-Rex's Records vs Good Texas Players
Hylian: 3-0
Sethlon: 3-1
Mr. 3000: 1-5(a lot of them are forfeits)

Mr. 3000's ""
Hylian: 2-1
Sethlon: 3-1
T-Rex: 5-1(a lot of them are forfeits)

Quote:
 
One grab takes Snake to at least 40. wtf as low as 50? Are you on drugs? Three hits? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. What are you going to counter camp with? Grenades aren't going to reach Falco if he's throwing his shine out and nikita is going to get blocked by shine on its way over.


F-smash.

Timed grenades can beat out the shine.

Quote:
 
Yes if you know that the Falco player is a moron and is going to side b past you instead of landing on a top platform or going for the ledge it can be punished. That's about the only way to punish the recovery: If the Falco player recovers like an idiot. In Melee where Falco's recovery was worse and Marth had better edgeguarding options the only way to stop perfect side b sweetspot was to edgehog and it's basically impossible to stop him from recovering high. I find it most amusing that you are saying it is easy to edgeguard in this game when it is nigh impossible.


You can fastfall ledgehog if he f-bs for the ledge, and if he goes high I just f-b him. Unless you're saying Keitaro sucks...which is stupid since he always places high besides one time and low tiers. If Falco is under the stage, he dies.

Quote:
 
Falco's forward b is not edgeguardable and getting grabs is not hard to do.


What? Even Link's n-air hits him out of hit, and Link sucks. Any meaty will do it.

Quote:
 
I'm talking about when the jabs actually hit, not randomly throwing it out. If he got hit by side b after the jabs then he ended them too late and you can't "walk" in the other direction while you're getting hit by them. If you're talking about walking away from a Falco rapid jabbing the air, well that's a horrifyingly bad strategy in the first place and not what I was talking about.


I DI'd out and walked away, and when he rolled behind me, I just f-b'd.
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(*Jman*)
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Kakatte Koi!

Inui
 
Also because of Trevor's Lucario.  I learned that Lucario is really good.

Play my Pika then and then your reasons will be even :).

Inui
 
It's not even finals at all.  HugS got 7th.

No, it's definitely finals, even getyourtournament's youtube description says that and it's match 4. It HAS to be finals.

Inui
 
Link is a horrendous character.  Money match my Link with Lucas.  Lucas's camping isn't good enough to lock down anyone.  How the hell is it?

Sure, I'll take another dollar from you. You don't need to lock someone down with his camping, you just need to not get hit. What is Ganondorf going to do about it? Nothing.

Inui
 
You had a way to recover your percent, and arguements based on banned stages hardly matter.  The rest is about one move being good, and even Ganondord has a few good moves.  What else does Lucas have?  Easily gimped, generally easy to punish, lots of his moves come out slow, his priority in the air and his air game in general suck...

Sorry, the stage doesn't merit banning because you exclusively get raped there. "easily gimped?" Uhh, no? You can't jump into his PK Thunder to get rid of it, all you can do is hit him and he recovers very far horizontally. He has good combos and he rapes sidestepping and airdodging. The bat and wavebounced down b both have good range and send you far undiminished.

Inui
 
A hill can get him out, like at Lylat.  He only needs one frame of error to get out.  Toon Link doesn't have that, and the CG is harder to do on Marth in general.

And since most Dedede players will probably ban Lylat because they don't want to hit their head against the bottom of the stage that doesn't matter. The CG being harder does not matter as I said as it is still easy to do.

Inui
 
Toon Link indeed does well, but Marth also does well, and perhaps better.  I've beaten Trevor three times and have done very well against Jason and Emblem Lord beat Trevor twice.  Eazy is probably the best Toon Link around and he lost to Lord Knight's Dedede, which is nowhere near as good as Jason's and not as good as Trevor's, and Trevor usually beats him.  I'm just basing this stuff on what I see happen at tournaments.

Why are you using Eazy as an argument when you know he does not care about the game and doesn't try 99% of the time?

Inui
 
Toon Link is an amazing characters.  "Bad" matches don't exist for him.  I said Marth wins his matches by more.  I don't see Toon Link having 80/20 and 70/30 vs half the characters like Marth does.

Name matchups plz.

Inui
 
T-Rex's Records vs Good Texas Players
Hylian: 3-0
Sethlon: 3-1
Mr. 3000: 1-5(a lot of them are forfeits)

Mr. 3000's ""
Hylian: 2-1
Sethlon: 3-1
T-Rex: 5-1(a lot of them are forfeits)


That's nice. Did you happen to listen to me on AIM at 4 AM when you told me this and I told you T-Rex and Mr. 3000 won their sets in the first month of Brawl? Unless you're going to count losing to Keitaro, Eazy, and ROT8 then don't count tournament records from back then kthx.

Inui
 
F-smash.

Timed grenades can beat out the shine.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. You can't consistently hope someone is going to trip into the fsmash.

No, they don't. The shine pushes the grenade away from Falco, even if it explodes before reaching Snake it isn't going to blow Falco up.


Inui
 
You can fastfall ledgehog if he f-bs for the ledge, and if he goes high I just f-b him.  Unless you're saying Keitaro sucks...which is stupid since he always places high besides one time and low tiers.  If Falco is under the stage, he dies.

You have to double jump onto the top platform of the stage if he recovers high. You don't have enough time to do that. If Falco has his double jump he can just wait for you to hug and then double jump and side b past you.

Inui
 
What?  Even Link's n-air hits him out of hit, and Link sucks.  Any meaty will do it. 

k stop talking about Falco when this statement clearly shows you don't know anything about him. You can jump off with nair in Melee too with Link when Link's nair is better and Falco's side b is worse and that is THE WORST possible option to pick as an edgeguard against Falco. You have a small chance for success and if you don't hit him, which you probably won't, then Falco has the stage and you have the ledge. Awful position to be in.

Inui
 
I DI'd out and walked away, and when he rolled behind me, I just f-b'd.

You shouldn't roll behind Marth after doing rapid jabs in the first place. It's a horrible idea because he's not going to try to fsmash and beat it. The roll behind strategy applies to other characters.
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Inui
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Power of Flower

My personal tier list based on my tournament and personal experiences using the characters and fighting against them:

-God Tier-
Meta Knight
Snake

-Top Tier-
Dedede
Game and Watch
Marth
Falco
ROB
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit

-High Tier-
Squirtle
Zelda
Sheik
Wario
Pikachu
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Fox

-Mid Tier-
Wolf
Charizard
Peach
Olimar
Ike
Bowser
Lucas

-Low Tier-
Ivysaur
Mario
Yoshi
Link
Samus
Ness
Captain Falcon

-Bottom Tier-
Sonic
Ganondorf

*Zelda/Sheik used together skillfully is top tier.
*Squirtle alone is top tier, but Ivysaur drags him down.
*Pokemon Trainer as a whole is possibly top tier if you're good with all of them and change intelligently.
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Neo
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Tits and Ass

Why don't you just put Zelda/Shiek as a spot and pokemon trainer as a spot and then use the seperate characters at different levels?
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cool story bro


Pokemon Trainer should not be counted as separate characters because it's very hard to only use one throughout the whole match. You can get punished pretty easily for switching.

At least with Zelda/Sheik, you can pick one at the beginning, and never change.
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ekg
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why is snake up so high? every time i have tried to use him he sucks pretty bad. also i think wolf should at least be in the top tier...if not god tier. once you get some one up in the air you can keep them up there for a long time, if not til you kill them.
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Linkssword


Fux

Laem internet made me double post.
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Linkssword


lol

Because you are the best Snake in the world mirite?

Disjointed hitboxes, mines, amazing mindgames, ftilt, ftilt, heavyweight, great recovery for a heavy, ftilt and all around greatness is what makes Snake God Tier.
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Pyro Ice
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Check The Blueprint...

Lol@Wolf for God Tier and moving Snake down. :NomNomNom:
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szh
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Linkssword
Jul 7 2008, 04:28 AM
lol

Because you are the best Snake in the world mirite?

Disjointed hitboxes, mines, amazing mindgames, ftilt, ftilt, heavyweight, great recovery for a heavy, ftilt and all around greatness is what makes Snake God Tier.

you forgot utilt and utilt :P
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Cubic
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ZA WARUDO

And usmash and usmash and fsmash and fmsah and jab and jab. :(
[ currently~fulfilling my focus ]

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ekg
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Id love to play someone online in this. I'll be Wolf and you can be Snake lol. I can't until after the thirteenth tho cuz im on vacation right now.
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szh
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ekg
Jul 7 2008, 10:05 AM
Id love to play someone online in this. I'll be Wolf and you can be Snake lol. I can't until after the thirteenth tho cuz im on vacation right now.

Well, even if you win it won't prove anything other than you having a better Wolf than the guy's Snake.

I challenge you to a Falcon vs Wolf match D:
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ekg
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ha ok sounds good. i love usin falco and wolf so it should be good!
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