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Brawl Tier List
Topic Started: Apr 20 2008, 10:11 AM (5,545 Views)
Neo
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Tits and Ass

You mean the Marth chaingrab? Ah good shit. If they ban that grab, they have to ban the other chaingrabs as well. It's possible to escape through two ways, falling off the edge and doing the jump escape animation.
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Greth (OLD)
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There is a light that never goes out...

Phil
May 4 2008, 01:49 AM
I have a question....

Do you have any experience with the "Lucas-chain grab"? I just discovered this on Smashboards, and it's apparently devastating towards any Lucas or Ness player. I really don't want to switch my main, but if this is as bad as it sounds, I may be forced to consider.

Here is the topic if you're not sure what I'm talking about.

Marth on Ness action? who isn't familiar with that shit?

poor Earthbound characters, getting all touched inappropriately by Marth.
Has been known as:
mrmastodon, Greth, MF Greth, L, Shu, Sailor Star Healer

Voted most manly last time, and most underrated twice in a row, shit yeah!
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Super Saiyan SolidSense
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As an extremely inexperienced, non-tournament player, you should probably consider the advice and opinions of long-established top players over your own.


When and where I see good reason to do so. I'm not going to blindly believe in something just because those superior to me in an area believe in it. If that were the case, I would support our political leaders through every single bad decision that they have made/are making.

If the best player in the world were to tell me "Meta Knight > Snake," I would still ask him why. I'm not going to take his word for it, just like that. I'd like to see the rationale and reasoning first. The same applies to what you said. I have a viewpoint; I am discussing that viewpoint to the best of my abilities. For me to drop it because "all the experienced pplz agree on this" would be downright stupid and sheeplike of me.

Also, did our discussion die or something? You didn't continue it. Well, whatever. On to other things...

I have trouble seeing Marth as high as he is on the updated tier list. Above G&W? Elaboration, please?
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Reaver
Troll

Agreed with Solide. To say that the best have the most correct opinions is ridiculous because once you get them saying "captain falcon is top tier" then your rationale means Captain Falcon is top-tier despite his obvious shortcomings simply because the best "said so."
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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cool story bro


wryyyyyy

Inui is elitist, but he does know much more about the game than you. Why is it that people can't seem to accept this?
A NEW WORLD ORDER
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Leon
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GUUUUNDAAAAAAAM

They just want proof.

I'd be curious to know how this list would look without chain-grabbing being a factor.

But I don't think I noticed until just now that Ice Climbers are in high tier, did they just recently get bumped up there? What are their biggest pros and cons?
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Reaver
Troll

Phil
May 4 2008, 02:13 PM
wryyyyyy

Inui is elitist, but he does know much more about the game than you. Why is it that people can't seem to accept this?

As a moderator of FEFF every action I take is right; I don't need to explain it to you. I can warn you for no reason whatsoever and say "as a moderator I know Phil deserved this warning so it's justified" and you have to accept it simply because I am in the position of power. I have much more knowledge about how to run a forum and manage members at a forum than you do.

To put the same issue in a different light, this is what Inui is doing. He is telling you something without justification and, for the cynics and skeptics such as myself, we want to know WHY certain people think this. Just because you don't have tournament experience doesn't mean you're a failure of a Smash player and your opinions are worth jack shit, especially when good logic places opinions over others regardless over who holds them.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Pyro Ice
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Check The Blueprint...

Bowser is higher than Olimar? Wtf.
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Inui
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Reaver
May 4 2008, 01:23 PM
As a moderator of FEFF every action I take is right; I don't need to explain it to you. I can warn you for no reason whatsoever and say "as a moderator I know Phil deserved this warning so it's justified" and you have to accept it simply because I am in the position of power. I have much more knowledge about how to run a forum and manage members at a forum than you do.

Except I'm not doing something ridiculously insane and stupid like that. I'm just saying who's better than who in a video game that I play professionally.

Quote:
 
For me to drop it because "all the experienced pplz agree on this" would be downright stupid and sheeplike of me.


There's stuff you obviously don't understand yet. You don't understand how MetaKnight wins defense based on Snake living to much higher percents. However, getting Snake to those percents is very easy.

- Falco can 0-50ish CG him
- Dedede can CG him all day
- Kirby has nasty combos to like 40-60 on him depending on DI
- Almost any character can combo him at low percents
- Snake's recovery won't sweetspot the ledge, meaning he's going to take a hit if he recovers from under the stage, and that can be a full charged smash attack
- Snake is easy to countercamp because none of his projectiles are instant

- MetaKnight basically can't be combo'd
- MetaKnight has significantly less lag than Snake on his moves and thus is much harder to punish
- MetaKnight has a much harder recovery to punish

In short, Snake gets punished way more easily and gets combo'd way more easily. He can't possibly win defense if you play the match right.

In terms of match-ups, both Snake and MetaKnight destroy basically the entire cast. However, Snake loses to Dedede and MetaKnight. MetaKnight has no bad matches. Based on this, it's impossible for Snake to be above MetaKnight, and this is what tier lists are largely based on.

Quote:
 
I have trouble seeing Marth as high as he is on the updated tier list. Above G&W? Elaboration, please?


I'd advise you to check the Marth board for Emblem Lord's stuff.

But, in short, Marth is very safe on block and can handle almost any situation thrown at him. He essentially loses almost no characters in the game. Marth can live longer than Game and Watch and he's safer on block. His killing moves are also much easier to hit. Hitting Marth's aerials for edgeguarding and his stuff like downsmash is easier than Game and Watch's slower smashes and forward air.

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But I don't think I noticed until just now that Ice Climbers are in high tier, did they just recently get bumped up there? What are their biggest pros and cons?


Pros: Chaingrabbing, high damage output from two things attacking you at once, awesome recovery when both are together.
Cons: Single Ice Climber is horrible, low KO power if both don't hit you.

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Bowser is higher than Olimar? Wtf.


Bowser is fat and lives forever. Bowser has huge moves and high power. He has Bowsercides. Olimar dies as soon as he's off the stage unless he's really high up. Olimar sucks huge balls without Pikmin.
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Super Saiyan SolidSense
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Inui is elitist, but he does know much more about the game than you. Why is it that people can't seem to accept this?


No, I'm not denying he's better than me at the game or that he knows more - of course he does. George Bush knows more about politics than I do. That doesn't mean I have to accept everything that he says or does politically as unequivocal fact. It does mean he has more insight and knowledge, but it doesn't make everything he does absolutely correct.

I'm merely asserting my right to challenge and question.

Quote:
 
They just want proof.


Indeed. That about sums it up right there. While trying to have a discussion with someone, I don't want to hear "the pros generally agree that..." No. That's totally irrelevant to the discussion. If I'm wrong, I want to know why I'm wrong.

Quote:
 
Except I'm not doing something ridiculously insane and stupid like that. I'm just saying who's better than who in a video game that I play professionally.


I don't know about Reaver, but I don't have anything against you stating your opinion - in fact, I want to hear more of it. I just did not appreciate the "elite pplz think this, so you should too" comment. If I'm wrong, I'd like proof of it (to be fair, you have been providing proof mostly consistently; that one statement just irked me).

Quote:
 
There's stuff you obviously don't understand yet.


Exactly. I want to know exactly what that stuff is. Knowledge is useless if you're not willing to impart it or share it with others. But, you did that later on in your post, so I'm not griping.

Quote:
 


*list*


Alright. I see where you're going with this. Some characters can wreck Snake's defensive advantages whereas none can do that to MK, so that means MK wins defense overall. Makes sense.

Quote:
 
In terms of match-ups, both Snake and MetaKnight destroy basically the entire cast. However, Snake loses to Dedede and MetaKnight. MetaKnight has no bad matches. Based on this, it's impossible for Snake to be above MetaKnight, and this is what tier lists are largely based on.


Hmm, I thought that MK's "bad match up" was Snake? At least, that seems to be what's floating around on smashboards, and I can see good reason for it. And what about Ike? Ike is very difficult to gimp, heavy and powerful (opposed to MK's light and weak), while having some fast moves and outranging MK by quite a bit (I'm not sure about priority - who has better priority in general?). I would consider MK at a disadvantage against Ike, especially since MK can't really camp, and camping is the best tactic vs. Ike.

Does degree of advantage not also matter? If MK with, say, 0 bad match-ups were only slightly advantaged against certain characters and Snake were highly advantaged against those characters but disadvantaged against one or two others, wouldn't that tilt it towards Snake?

Also, I appreciate the input on Marth.
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Inui
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Power of Flower

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Hmm, I thought that MK's "bad match up" was Snake? At least, that seems to be what's floating around on smashboards, and I can see good reason for it. And what about Ike? Ike is very difficult to gimp, heavy and powerful (opposed to MK's light and weak), while having some fast moves and outranging MK by quite a bit (I'm not sure about priority - who has better priority in general?). I would consider MK at a disadvantage against Ike, especially since MK can't really camp, and camping is the best tactic vs. Ike.


MetaKnight wins against Snake because he can gimp him and easily punish him. He also can't get camped.

Ike's extremely easy to gimp and he's not hard to combo. What are you talking about? Get him off the stage and then don't suck. The super armour on his up b gets ignored by stuff like Ganondorf's down air. Azen thinks Ike's worst match is MetaKnight, and I completely agree, as well as other players. Ike gets punished for doing anything at all, and if he's forced to use his forward b to recovery, he will die.

Why can't MetaKnight camp? Just wait for someone else to move. Just spam spaced aerials while moving backwards. That's a form of camping that someone like Marth also uses.

Quote:
 
Does degree of advantage not also matter? If MK with, say, 0 bad match-ups were only slightly advantaged against certain characters and Snake were highly advantaged against those characters but disadvantaged against one or two others, wouldn't that tilt it towards Snake?


MetaKnight rapes them all harder than Snake does. Degree of matches does matter. Marth wins all of the same matches as MetaKnight, but MetaKnight wins them by larger amounts, so he's higher up. Marth has less bad matches than Dedede, but Dedede destroys most of the characters horribly, so he's better.
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Reaver
Troll

Inui
 
Except I'm not doing something ridiculously insane and stupid like that. I'm just saying who's better than who in a video game that I play professionally.
Without justification. That's my entire point. What I'm doing isn't stupid by any means if I'm right -- as someone with more experience in running a form I'd be right according to your logic -- but in all situations it lacks proper justification. For you to say "the best think this" and using that to trump arguments is the same as me saying "the mods think this" and using that to ban members or do whatever they want without any justification.

Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Inui
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Power of Flower

Reaver
May 4 2008, 06:26 PM
Inui
 
Except I'm not doing something ridiculously insane and stupid like that. I'm just saying who's better than who in a video game that I play professionally.
Without justification. That's my entire point. What I'm doing isn't stupid by any means if I'm right -- as someone with more experience in running a form I'd be right according to your logic -- but in all situations it lacks proper justification. For you to say "the best think this" and using that to trump arguments is the same as me saying "the mods think this" and using that to ban members or do whatever they want without any justification.

No, it's really not. Your example was clearly insane. Mine wasn't at all. If the professional community thinks the same way on something, then it's pretty much a fact. The professional community heavily leans towards MetaKnight being the best character. If players that have consistently won and were top in Melee and still top in Brawl all feel <insert something> about <insert something> it's pretty damn safe to say it's a fact and non-tournament people should just go "oh okay" when someone that actually wins tournaments says something unless it sounds stupid, like when Mew2King says Marth isn't that good anymore(lol can't wait to beat him in a money match with Marth on the 17th).

Blah blah blah, you should get it by now. Professional opinion is justification. If you really need more, then by all means force me to explain it. I already did so in this MetaKnight vs Snake business.
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Pyro Ice
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Check The Blueprint...

Inui
May 4 2008, 02:08 PM
Quote:
 
Bowser is higher than Olimar? Wtf.


Bowser is fat and lives forever. Bowser has huge moves and high power. He has Bowsercides. Olimar dies as soon as he's off the stage unless he's really high up. Olimar sucks huge balls without Pikmin.

Bowser is a huge target, so anything Olimar throws at him will hit him (or any move ANYONE throws at him, for that matter). His moves are slow and he has terrible recovery.

Olimar is quick, has varied moves, great aerials and an amazing recovery move. He can rack up damage easily with his side-b. Sure, he's light, but KOing him isn't that easy if you keep distance from whoever you're playing with. Any skilled Olimar player will be careful enough not to run out of Pikmin, so the statement that he sucks without them is very situational and should not apply when making a tier list.

The only real downsides I think Olimar has are that he is too light and floaty when falling down and that he sucks w/o Pikmin.
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"Champions are made from something they have deep inside them: a desire, a dream, a vision."
~ Muhammad Ali

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Reaver
Troll

Inui
 
Blah blah blah, you should get it by now.  Professional opinion is justification.  If you really need more, then by all means force me to explain it.  I already did so in this MetaKnight vs Snake business.
If you can explain it, explain it. If you were to say that Captain Falcon was better than Falco would it be true based on your professional opinion? The fact Falcon has such low priority and most of his strongest moves (except the knee) have mega-lag clearly proves this false, yet by your logic professional opinon is justification...

Logic > debating based on the credentials of the debater.


That was the point I really wanted to make, so the rest of the post is sort of irrelevant:

Quote:
 
No, it's really not. Your example was clearly insane. Mine wasn't at all. If the professional community thinks the same way on something, then it's pretty much a fact. The professional community heavily leans towards MetaKnight being the best character. If players that have consistently won and were top in Melee and still top in Brawl all feel <insert something> about <insert something> it's pretty damn safe to say it's a fact and non-tournament people should just go "oh okay" when someone that actually wins tournaments says something unless it sounds stupid, like when Mew2King says Marth isn't that good anymore(lol can't wait to beat him in a money match with Marth on the 17th).
If the professional community thinks something, they should be able to defend it with logical observations. The professional community thinks MK is best because of his abilities shown in combat, and all that jazz; they don't think MK is the best simply because "he's the best." Their opinions require justification too, and since they have exposure their opinions usually win out simply because they have the most experience and can debate their point best. By saying "X player thinks he's best, so he is" doesn't provide any logical base as to why the character in question is best.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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