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| Omni on why Brawl is not a good competitive game; Attention, all tasteless tetrahedra! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 18 2008, 05:10 PM (1,792 Views) | |
| (*Jman*) | Jun 18 2008, 05:10 PM Post #1 |
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Kakatte Koi!
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I'm only making this because Phil seems to think that saying Brawl is a garbage game competitively is Brawl bashing. It's not, it's just being honest.
Short form - Tripping/Air Tripping - Footstooling - No hitstun/shieldstun - Autosweetspotting - Camping is by far the best strategy and very boring - A number of smaller issues Long form Tripping is gay. I've been to ~10 Brawl tournaments or so and have won three tournament matches due to tripping, lost a tournament match due to tripping, and lost a round of a money match due to tripping. Outside of tournament, I have won and lost a number of matches due to tripping. Not counting matches, I have lost and taken stock, as well as lost and taken damage from tripping. I wouldn't mind if certain moves always induced trip and that was the only form of tripping. I mind that I will RANDOMLY trip when I dash. Being punished for trying to move is gay. Air tripping is the gayest thing in the universe. Instantly falling into your helpless animation and possibly losing a stock because of that is retarded. Losing because of random events that cannot be dealt with = something bad for competitive play. Footstooling is skilless and stupid. Pressing the jump button on top of someone's head should not spike them. Not to mention that besides Kirby players who do dair --> footstool, 99% of the time people footstool their opponents by accident when attempting to double jump <_<. It's especially annoying when you footstool someone on the ground because you want to do a rising aeriel and instead you are miles away from them and can't follow it up. Besides chaingrabbing, ZSS stun weapons, and stuff like jab locks, combos barely exist in this game. The vast majority of combos are highly situational and happen to be laughably easy to do. The lack of shieldstun makes the most aggressive form of playing camping in front of someone. Very few moves are safe on someone's shield and it's retardedly gay that if you sidestep [insert move here] you automatically can hit your opponent before they can do anything. Autosweetspotting. I'm just going to show you some screenshots from the game. All of these depict a character in their ledgegrab animation. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() It makes edgeguarding almost impossible, especially since rolling from the ledge no longer keeps your opponent from grabbing the ledge during your roll animation. On camping. Let me quote Cactuar and then add to what he says.
This was written not too long after Brawl was released but unfortunately it is accurate. There is no aggressive way to stop camping in Brawl short of being VASTLY SUPERIOR in skill then your opponent. It's just not possible. At a recent tournament vs a Marth player in losers finals I won 3-2. In both matches I lost I was camping and was winning. Then I decided to play aggressive for the rest of the match and lost. In one of the matches I was up by a whole stock and I still lost because I played aggressive for the rest of the match. A list of some of my minor issues with the game - Fox's lasers. They have reduced range if you jump, they do reduced damage the further they go, and jumping with them sucks because of the heights his lasers shoot at. Seriously, what was the point of nerfing them to THIS extent? Peach's toad in Melee has more usefulness then Fox's lasers in Brawl. - Falco's lasers. Laserlock is cool and there are some setups for it but you shouldn't be able to crouch under them. - Samus' killing ability sucks. She's completely unviable as a serious character because it's nearly impossible to kill someone with her. Barring a few moves at still relatively high percents, she sucks at killing. - ZSS' jumps suuuuuuuuuuck. She can't do anything on her way up in a jump so you're forced to camp harder with her to make up for that. - Snake's uptilt animation. I wouldn't mind if he stretched his leg OUTWARD then it went up but that's NOT what happens and look at how far away it hits: ![]() - If you land during your airdodge animation you have invincibility frames on landing. Why the HELL would you give invincibility frames to someone for landing during their airdodge animation!? - Pikachu can't tailspike anymore :(. - They made Link fail at being fun and they made him suck more. Why would they make every tether unable to grab the wall to make it easier to edgeguard? At least characters like Samus have an up B that goes far but Link's is awful. http://youtube.com/watch?v=NP09oOHQWXg Watch 3:12-3:22. That is fun. Then watch how we camp each other after that and watch what how the camping stops and what happens. - Wario has 2 different types of costumes but they got rid of Doctor Mario AND Mario doesn't have a Doc costume? WTF? - Online is laggy as hell 99% of the time, making it worthless to play seriously on it. - Masterpiece mode is stupid but it could have been amazing if instead of time limitations they just only let you play certain small parts of the game. 50 seconds of F-Zero = barely enough for first lap. I have more minor issues I just don't feel like listing them all. |
![]() ![]() Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto | |
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| Inui | Jun 18 2008, 05:26 PM Post #2 |
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Power of Flower
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The game engine and all that shit, besides tripping and footstooling, was made those ways to make Brawl work on the crappy online system that Nintendo uses. |
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| (*Jman*) | Jun 18 2008, 05:32 PM Post #3 |
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Kakatte Koi!
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Source for this? Because whoever came up with that idea is an idiot. The massive lag that there is with Brawl online makes the game worse than it already is. |
![]() ![]() Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto | |
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| cool story bro | Jun 18 2008, 05:34 PM Post #4 |
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Great post. If I were to argue that Brawl was more competitive than Melee, I would be an idiot, because the game has a lot of problems. Due to my limited competitive experience (in any game) I can't fully judge how well it stacks up, but I'm pretty sure it's not that well. As for Brawl bashing, when anybody (may or may not be you) comes into a topic and says "brawl sucks competitively" when it isn't relevant at all is bashing. Their post may have relevance to topic, but they will find a way to bash Brawl somewhere in it. It's really annoying when people do this, because everybody else in the topic just want to talk about the game. I like Brawl more. Maybe it's because I was never good at techskill in Melee, or maybe I'm just much better at Brawl. Regardless, even in a tournament setting, I prefer to play Brawl. I recognize that the game isn't as tournament suitable, and maybe I have a terrible outlook on competitive gaming in general. I'm also convinced that competitive Melee is never going to reach the level of popularity that it once was. I argued this earlier, but the sheer number of Brawl tournaments compared to Melee tournaments is pretty hard to ignore. Yes, Brawl pulls in all the scrubs (like me ) but with more scrubs comes more moneys. I'm not saying that Melee is dead, or will be dying anytime soon, but it's getting smaller, and that can't be denied.Compared to you, I'm a scrub, so take it for what it is. |
| A NEW WORLD ORDER | |
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| (*Jman*) | Jun 18 2008, 06:15 PM Post #5 |
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Kakatte Koi!
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When I said Brawl was not a good competitive game I meant more than just it's less competitive than Melee. It's less competitive than ANY good competitive game. Smash 64, WarCraft III, StarCraft, DotA, Melty Blood, any Mario Kart game if you play with no items, Meteos, any AW game except AW2 if you're using Sturm or AW: DS with a broken team, and many, many more games are more suited for competitive play than Brawl. These are all games that have a lot of depth and that you can get highly skilled in. In Brawl, just by playing campy and gay you can win and do well. The most intelligent decision you can make in this game is to just camp more.
I can't speak for other people, but when someone says "Brawl is my greatest passion and my only source of income" and I say Brawl is garbage competitively and there are many better competitive games, I am trying to help the person. Brawl is probably going to die in the long run because I can't see people from California traveling to New York to play when they know there is a good chance that they will not place high exclusively because of how bad a game Brawl is competitively. In the long run, if you play one of any number of vastly superior competitive games you will enjoy yourself far more than you will playing Brawl and no vastly superior competitive game is going to die out because no one sees any interest in traveling for it.
I don't see anything wrong with this, though if you worked on improving your tech skill in Melee you would have much more fun playing it.
It is entirely possible and highly likely that Melee will never reach the level of popularity that it once had. However, while there are many people who play Brawl now, I doubt it's going to stay that way. The flaws of this game become more apparent as you play this game more. I never thought it would happen but I actually have more fun playing with ITEMS ON in Brawl then I do with them off because the game becomes less campy, even if it does become more luck based. Read the following
Call yourself a noob if you're referring to your low skill level. When I think of scrub, I think of Sirlin's definition.
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![]() ![]() Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto | |
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| Bossadai | Jun 18 2008, 06:28 PM Post #6 |
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New Days
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I'm sure that in another 7 years or so, after this game's been figured out and Nintendo makes another Smash game, that there's going to be this same type of complaining. Just because you haven't figured out all of the tricks in this game has to offer (yet), like what players did to Melee, doesn't mean you can call this game bad, competitive-wise. Not yet, anyways. Please, try to give it more than 3 months' worth of thought. The people playing Melee sure did. |
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| Inui | Jun 18 2008, 06:29 PM Post #7 |
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Power of Flower
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Massive lag with the precise, technical things in Melee = lol. Trying to recovery without giant magnetic hands in massive lag = lol. The source is somewhere on AiB. Sakurai dumbed down the game to make it work on the crappy Wi-Fi system Nintendo uses.
Minus the not being good at Melee and having a bad outlook on competitive gaming parts, QFT.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Tripping and footstooling alone make the game bad competitively. There's no way around that nonsense. |
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| Bossadai | Jun 18 2008, 06:34 PM Post #8 |
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New Days
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I also don't play competitively. Whoops~ |
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| Inui | Jun 18 2008, 06:36 PM Post #9 |
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Power of Flower
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| Bossadai | Jun 18 2008, 06:38 PM Post #10 |
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New Days
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You think I didn't know that? But in all seriousness, tripping is pretty gay. Though I've never really had a problem with footstooling...ever lol. Must be a competitive thing~ |
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| Inui | Jun 18 2008, 06:39 PM Post #11 |
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Power of Flower
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Losing tournament matches because you got footstooled would make you hate footstooling, too.
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| Bossadai | Jun 18 2008, 06:45 PM Post #12 |
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New Days
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Damn. It must be bad, that footstooling. My condolences. ;_; |
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| cool story bro | Jun 18 2008, 07:08 PM Post #13 |
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;_; I am regretful that I never got into the Melee competitive scene, aside from some basic knowledge. It feels like my opinion of both games will always be biased. |
| A NEW WORLD ORDER | |
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| (*Jman*) | Jun 18 2008, 07:21 PM Post #14 |
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Kakatte Koi!
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Good job ignoring every point I made and instead only responding with "Give it more time."
You CAN'T COMBO for massive damage in this game besides stupid things like Zelda's dtilt over and over and Sheik's ftilt over and over. There are entire aspects of Melee there were almost completely taken out like techchasing that have nothing anywhere near as substantial to replace them.
And this would be why you do not know that Brawl is a horrifyingly bad game competitively.
Massive lag makes camping unstoppable. It just makes the dominant strategy even better. Link me to source, I don't use All is Failure. |
![]() ![]() Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto | |
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| Admin | Jun 18 2008, 07:32 PM Post #15 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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Melee is better competitive game than Brawl. There are many other games more competive than Brawl is. The only thing I want to say is that Brawl is more Competive than SSB-pick-ness-or-kirby-and-lol. |
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9:37 AM Jul 11
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) but with more scrubs comes more moneys. I'm not saying that Melee is dead, or will be dying anytime soon, but it's getting smaller, and that can't be denied.


9:37 AM Jul 11