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Omni on why Brawl is not a good competitive game; Attention, all tasteless tetrahedra!
Topic Started: Jun 18 2008, 05:10 PM (1,790 Views)
(*Jman*)
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Kakatte Koi!

I'm only making this because Phil seems to think that saying Brawl is a garbage game competitively is Brawl bashing. It's not, it's just being honest.

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So, what exactly are your reasons for hating Brawl so much? I like Melee more too, but I don't despise Brawl. >_>


Short form
- Tripping/Air Tripping
- Footstooling
- No hitstun/shieldstun
- Autosweetspotting
- Camping is by far the best strategy and very boring
- A number of smaller issues

Long form

Tripping is gay. I've been to ~10 Brawl tournaments or so and have won three tournament matches due to tripping, lost a tournament match due to tripping, and lost a round of a money match due to tripping. Outside of tournament, I have won and lost a number of matches due to tripping. Not counting matches, I have lost and taken stock, as well as lost and taken damage from tripping. I wouldn't mind if certain moves always induced trip and that was the only form of tripping. I mind that I will RANDOMLY trip when I dash. Being punished for trying to move is gay. Air tripping is the gayest thing in the universe. Instantly falling into your helpless animation and possibly losing a stock because of that is retarded. Losing because of random events that cannot be dealt with = something bad for competitive play.

Footstooling is skilless and stupid. Pressing the jump button on top of someone's head should not spike them. Not to mention that besides Kirby players who do dair --> footstool, 99% of the time people footstool their opponents by accident when attempting to double jump <_<. It's especially annoying when you footstool someone on the ground because you want to do a rising aeriel and instead you are miles away from them and can't follow it up.

Besides chaingrabbing, ZSS stun weapons, and stuff like jab locks, combos barely exist in this game. The vast majority of combos are highly situational and happen to be laughably easy to do. The lack of shieldstun makes the most aggressive form of playing camping in front of someone. Very few moves are safe on someone's shield and it's retardedly gay that if you sidestep [insert move here] you automatically can hit your opponent before they can do anything.

Autosweetspotting. I'm just going to show you some screenshots from the game. All of these depict a character in their ledgegrab animation.

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It makes edgeguarding almost impossible, especially since rolling from the ledge no longer keeps your opponent from grabbing the ledge during your roll animation.

On camping. Let me quote Cactuar and then add to what he says.
Cactus
 
In general, in fighting games the entire engine is boiled down to two things:

The Push and Pull: This is where we encounter the term "mind games" most often. It is everything you do to manipulate your opponent, control space on the stage, creating openings to enable you to land either individual blows or combo starters, how you react and pressure shields, etc.

The Punishment: The end result of all push and pull games. Ranging from individual hits to death combos.

In smash, we still have the same basic fighter concept, and are given an additional component:

The Edge: Encompasses all things related to killing your opponent off the sides and bottom of the stage through guarding the edge. This is where we see gimping most often.

For the Smash series, we have seen the balance shift between the push and pull and the punishment.

In 64, there was a heavy reliance on the combo game, making the push and pull less important than being able to consistently death combo the enemy. The only real importance of the push and pull was to make sure you could land one hit before the enemy. (This is a slightly overstated :))

In Melee, there was a balance between the push and pull, and the combo game was significantly more balanced with the addition of DI and the reduction of shield stun. There were so many options regarding movement available that the push and pull became equally important as being able to properly execute the punishment.

In Brawl, we see a huge imbalance in the gameplay. The push and pull game has become far more important than the punishment game, as there is such a weak overall combo system. The problem here is that, while they made the push and pull game so much more important, they slowed down the overall game play and removed many of the movement options, and even inserted an unremoveable random variable (tripping) to further gimp movement. Because of this slower pace, the game becomes boring to watch, as we spend more time in the push and pull, then when we manage to initiate the punishment, there is an epic anti-climactic moment because the opponent can't be punished to an extent that would be fair for their mistake. The game is so oriented towards rewarding camping that, competitively, we will likely see projectile characters stand as far away as possible, then shoot as many things as possible until the opponent approaches, at which point they will exchange very little damage, then resume camping. Close range characters have had their options reduced, as players are punished for approaching by running(your only options from run are to dash attack, grab, or jump. Shielding from run puts you at a disadvantage due to the removal of the first frame running shield and the new lagged shield.), and most characters have a disadvantage by approaching from above. Shield grabbing has been upgraded, given the very small amount of shield hit stun from any move, and at the same time ruined because of the inability to combo out of grab, aside from the few characters that now have nearly skill-less chaingrabs.

I will stop at this point, only because the my purpose here is to explain the imbalance of Brawl and why the mechanisms in this game prevent it from being reasonably viable on a competitive level. Sure, they may continue to play the game in tournament and it may even become big, but it doesn't mean it should be. Brawl has ruined all of the work that we, the melee community, put into getting Smash recognized as a fighting game. Brawl is a platformer party game, not a fighting game.


This was written not too long after Brawl was released but unfortunately it is accurate. There is no aggressive way to stop camping in Brawl short of being VASTLY SUPERIOR in skill then your opponent. It's just not possible. At a recent tournament vs a Marth player in losers finals I won 3-2. In both matches I lost I was camping and was winning. Then I decided to play aggressive for the rest of the match and lost. In one of the matches I was up by a whole stock and I still lost because I played aggressive for the rest of the match.

A list of some of my minor issues with the game

- Fox's lasers. They have reduced range if you jump, they do reduced damage the further they go, and jumping with them sucks because of the heights his lasers shoot at. Seriously, what was the point of nerfing them to THIS extent? Peach's toad in Melee has more usefulness then Fox's lasers in Brawl.

- Falco's lasers. Laserlock is cool and there are some setups for it but you shouldn't be able to crouch under them.

- Samus' killing ability sucks. She's completely unviable as a serious character because it's nearly impossible to kill someone with her. Barring a few moves at still relatively high percents, she sucks at killing.

- ZSS' jumps suuuuuuuuuuck. She can't do anything on her way up in a jump so you're forced to camp harder with her to make up for that.

- Snake's uptilt animation. I wouldn't mind if he stretched his leg OUTWARD then it went up but that's NOT what happens and look at how far away it hits: Posted Image

- If you land during your airdodge animation you have invincibility frames on landing. Why the HELL would you give invincibility frames to someone for landing during their airdodge animation!?

- Pikachu can't tailspike anymore :(.

- They made Link fail at being fun and they made him suck more. Why would they make every tether unable to grab the wall to make it easier to edgeguard? At least characters like Samus have an up B that goes far but Link's is awful. http://youtube.com/watch?v=NP09oOHQWXg Watch 3:12-3:22. That is fun. Then watch how we camp each other after that and watch what how the camping stops and what happens.

- Wario has 2 different types of costumes but they got rid of Doctor Mario AND Mario doesn't have a Doc costume? WTF?

- Online is laggy as hell 99% of the time, making it worthless to play seriously on it.

- Masterpiece mode is stupid but it could have been amazing if instead of time limitations they just only let you play certain small parts of the game. 50 seconds of F-Zero = barely enough for first lap.

I have more minor issues I just don't feel like listing them all.
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Inui
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Power of Flower

The game engine and all that shit, besides tripping and footstooling, was made those ways to make Brawl work on the crappy online system that Nintendo uses.
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(*Jman*)
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Inui
Jun 18 2008, 05:26 PM
The game engine and all that shit, besides tripping and footstooling, was made those ways to make Brawl work on the crappy online system that Nintendo uses.

Source for this? Because whoever came up with that idea is an idiot. The massive lag that there is with Brawl online makes the game worse than it already is.
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cool story bro


Great post. If I were to argue that Brawl was more competitive than Melee, I would be an idiot, because the game has a lot of problems. Due to my limited competitive experience (in any game) I can't fully judge how well it stacks up, but I'm pretty sure it's not that well. As for Brawl bashing, when anybody (may or may not be you) comes into a topic and says "brawl sucks competitively" when it isn't relevant at all is bashing. Their post may have relevance to topic, but they will find a way to bash Brawl somewhere in it. It's really annoying when people do this, because everybody else in the topic just want to talk about the game.

I like Brawl more. Maybe it's because I was never good at techskill in Melee, or maybe I'm just much better at Brawl. Regardless, even in a tournament setting, I prefer to play Brawl. I recognize that the game isn't as tournament suitable, and maybe I have a terrible outlook on competitive gaming in general.

I'm also convinced that competitive Melee is never going to reach the level of popularity that it once was. I argued this earlier, but the sheer number of Brawl tournaments compared to Melee tournaments is pretty hard to ignore. Yes, Brawl pulls in all the scrubs (like me :NomNomNom: ) but with more scrubs comes more moneys. I'm not saying that Melee is dead, or will be dying anytime soon, but it's getting smaller, and that can't be denied.

Compared to you, I'm a scrub, so take it for what it is.
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(*Jman*)
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Phil
 
Great post. If I were to argue that Brawl was more competitive than Melee, I would be an idiot, because the game has a lot of problems.  Due to my limited competitive experience (in any game) I can't fully judge how well it stacks up, but I'm pretty sure it's not that well.

When I said Brawl was not a good competitive game I meant more than just it's less competitive than Melee. It's less competitive than ANY good competitive game. Smash 64, WarCraft III, StarCraft, DotA, Melty Blood, any Mario Kart game if you play with no items, Meteos, any AW game except AW2 if you're using Sturm or AW: DS with a broken team, and many, many more games are more suited for competitive play than Brawl. These are all games that have a lot of depth and that you can get highly skilled in. In Brawl, just by playing campy and gay you can win and do well. The most intelligent decision you can make in this game is to just camp more.

Phil
 
As for Brawl bashing, when anybody (may or may not be you) comes into a topic and says "brawl sucks competitively" when it isn't relevant at all is bashing. Their post may have relevance to topic, but they will find a way to bash Brawl somewhere in it. It's really annoying when people do this, because everybody else in the topic just want to talk about the game.

I can't speak for other people, but when someone says "Brawl is my greatest passion and my only source of income" and I say Brawl is garbage competitively and there are many better competitive games, I am trying to help the person. Brawl is probably going to die in the long run because I can't see people from California traveling to New York to play when they know there is a good chance that they will not place high exclusively because of how bad a game Brawl is competitively. In the long run, if you play one of any number of vastly superior competitive games you will enjoy yourself far more than you will playing Brawl and no vastly superior competitive game is going to die out because no one sees any interest in traveling for it.

Phil
 
I like Brawl more. Maybe it's because I was never good at techskill in Melee, or maybe I'm just much better at Brawl. Regardless, even in a tournament setting, I prefer to play Brawl. I recognize that the game isn't as tournament suitable, and maybe I have a terrible outlook on competitive gaming in general.

I don't see anything wrong with this, though if you worked on improving your tech skill in Melee you would have much more fun playing it.

Phil
 
I'm also convinced that competitive Melee is never going to reach the level of popularity that it once was. I argued this earlier, but the sheer number of Brawl tournaments compared to Melee tournaments is pretty hard to ignore. Yes, Brawl pulls in all the scrubs (like me :NomNomNom: ) but with more scrubs comes more moneys. I'm not saying that Melee is dead, or will be dying anytime soon, but it's getting smaller, and that can't be denied.

It is entirely possible and highly likely that Melee will never reach the level of popularity that it once had. However, while there are many people who play Brawl now, I doubt it's going to stay that way. The flaws of this game become more apparent as you play this game more. I never thought it would happen but I actually have more fun playing with ITEMS ON in Brawl then I do with them off because the game becomes less campy, even if it does become more luck based. Read the following
FaceLoran
 
When we talk about skill, we are talking about the long haul. The overall picture. The LIKELIHOOD. Even in a game such as chess, which is based on nothing but the skill of the player, it's possible for the lesser player to win. They just won't win very often. This is one of the "other factors." Sometimes people play better or worse than their normal ability for whatever reason (intense focus, tired, drugs, sick, small mental mistakes, confidence issues, etc.)

What this means is that I can beat Darkrain. Darkrain is a great player who has had a pretty fair amount of success for any noobs here that don't know of him. I've played with him and watched him a bunch. And I can beat him. But he is a far superior Melee player than I am. I would say the frequency of me beating him would be very small, something like 1/10 matches. If I got extremely lucky, I could beat him in a set. I would need LUCK though, an outside factor....I would have to be playing my absolute best. He would have to be playing less than his normal level. I would possibly need some favorable random level.

The infrequency with which I, the inferior player, would beat Darkrain is why he and any other player who is good or thinks they are good could travel to a tournament and be assured that they are not just wasting their money traveling to a crapshoot. Without an assurance that the better player will win, there is absolutely no reason for a player who considers themselves good to go to a tournament if they are going with the expectation of winning.

Compared to Melee, Brawl has far less assurance of the better player winning. There's just no reason for thinking, skillful players to want to get good at this game to the point they would spend a ton of money traveling the country when they will get no reward. Those types of players will be more likely to concentrate their focus on other areas/games where they feel they have an edge and are rewarded for their hard work and talent. The more people that start to understand this concept, and I'm certain they will even if only through trial and error, the more people will put down this game as a competitive fighter.


Phil
 
Compared to you, I'm a scrub, so take it for what it is.

Call yourself a noob if you're referring to your low skill level. When I think of scrub, I think of Sirlin's definition.
Sirlin
 
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing.
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Bossadai
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I'm sure that in another 7 years or so, after this game's been figured out and Nintendo makes another Smash game, that there's going to be this same type of complaining.

Just because you haven't figured out all of the tricks in this game has to offer (yet), like what players did to Melee, doesn't mean you can call this game bad, competitive-wise. Not yet, anyways.

Please, try to give it more than 3 months' worth of thought. The people playing Melee sure did.
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Inui
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Minamimoto
Jun 18 2008, 05:32 PM
Inui
Jun 18 2008, 05:26 PM
The game engine and all that shit, besides tripping and footstooling, was made those ways to make Brawl work on the crappy online system that Nintendo uses.

Source for this? Because whoever came up with that idea is an idiot. The massive lag that there is with Brawl online makes the game worse than it already is.

Massive lag with the precise, technical things in Melee = lol.

Trying to recovery without giant magnetic hands in massive lag = lol.

The source is somewhere on AiB. Sakurai dumbed down the game to make it work on the crappy Wi-Fi system Nintendo uses.

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I like Brawl more. Maybe it's because I was never good at techskill in Melee, or maybe I'm just much better at Brawl. Regardless, even in a tournament setting, I prefer to play Brawl. I recognize that the game isn't as tournament suitable, and maybe I have a terrible outlook on competitive gaming in general.

I'm also convinced that competitive Melee is never going to reach the level of popularity that it once was. I argued this earlier, but the sheer number of Brawl tournaments compared to Melee tournaments is pretty hard to ignore. Yes, Brawl pulls in all the scrubs (like me) but with more scrubs comes more moneys. I'm not saying that Melee is dead, or will be dying anytime soon, but it's getting smaller, and that can't be denied.


Minus the not being good at Melee and having a bad outlook on competitive gaming parts, QFT.

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Just because you haven't figured out all of the tricks in this game has to offer (yet), like what players did to Melee, doesn't mean you can call this game bad, competitive-wise. Not yet, anyways.

Please, try to give it more than 3 months' worth of thought. The people playing Melee sure did.


You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Tripping and footstooling alone make the game bad competitively. There's no way around that nonsense.
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Bossadai
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I also don't play competitively. Whoops~

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Inui
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Bryars
Jun 18 2008, 06:34 PM
I also don't play competitively. Whoops~

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Omni on why Brawl is not a good [size=7]competitive[/size] game


:NomNomNom:
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Bossadai
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:NomNomNom:

You think I didn't know that?

But in all seriousness, tripping is pretty gay. Though I've never really had a problem with footstooling...ever lol. Must be a competitive thing~

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Inui
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Bryars
Jun 18 2008, 06:38 PM
But in all seriousness, tripping is pretty gay. Though I've never really had a problem with footstooling...ever lol. Must be a competitive thing~

Losing tournament matches because you got footstooled would make you hate footstooling, too. :NomNomNom:
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Bossadai
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Damn. It must be bad, that footstooling.

My condolences. ;_;
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cool story bro


;_;

I am regretful that I never got into the Melee competitive scene, aside from some basic knowledge. It feels like my opinion of both games will always be biased.
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(*Jman*)
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Bryars
Jun 18 2008, 06:28 PM
I'm sure that in another 7 years or so, after this game's been figured out and Nintendo makes another Smash game, that there's going to be this same type of complaining.

Just because you haven't figured out all of the tricks in this game has to offer (yet), like what players did to Melee, doesn't mean you can call this game bad, competitive-wise. Not yet, anyways.

Please, try to give it more than 3 months' worth of thought. The people playing Melee sure did.

Good job ignoring every point I made and instead only responding with "Give it more time."

Mew2King
 
yes, i am saying just that, that brawl IS highly luck compared to melee

trading hits, random air dodge to the ground with no landing lag, random tripping, which can happen during DDD chain grabs, air tripping as well, there's tons more luck in brawl than there is in melee, and far less guaranteed things. You don't anticipate the moves of noobs, they do random things, in melee you just rape them by being better, but if they are a campy noob, they can still do decent by just being a shield camping faggot. Melee has infinite room for improvement, without even needing to play gay. Brawl, if you play gay and boring, you have a SIGNIFICANTLY bigger advantage, and that's extremely boring and retarded. Lack of things you can master makes the game less fun with less replay value, which are things melee offered to a huge extreme.

You can do things randomly and not get punished for it nearly as bad as you would in melee, and that's a downgrade for competitive potential, where the best player isn't as guaranteed to win, especially in 3 stock matches. You suicide once it's over, in melee comebacks were easy cuz of death combos and stuff, brawl is more leveled out for the little kiddies, and that's more unfair for the better players. All the advanced tactics aren't hard to do, like shield cancel, it just takes getting used to, and it's extremely shallow, anyone can do it, and it's also really really really campy and that makes the game not fun. Brawl wasn't designed to be competitive, Sakurai did this on purpose, stop trying to make it competitive. Actually, that's what I'm trying to do, but it's not working, so just go back to melee, everyone's fine with that.

Blind predictions are the perfect way to describe the game.

You CAN'T COMBO for massive damage in this game besides stupid things like Zelda's dtilt over and over and Sheik's ftilt over and over. There are entire aspects of Melee there were almost completely taken out like techchasing that have nothing anywhere near as substantial to replace them.

Bryars
 
I also don't play competitively. Whoops~


And this would be why you do not know that Brawl is a horrifyingly bad game competitively.

Inui
 
Massive lag with the precise, technical things in Melee = lol.

Trying to recovery without giant magnetic hands in massive lag = lol.

The source is somewhere on AiB. Sakurai dumbed down the game to make it work on the crappy Wi-Fi system Nintendo uses.

Massive lag makes camping unstoppable. It just makes the dominant strategy even better.

Link me to source, I don't use All is Failure.
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Admin
There is a light that never goes out...

Melee is better competitive game than Brawl. There are many other games more competive than Brawl is. The only thing I want to say is that Brawl is more Competive than SSB-pick-ness-or-kirby-and-lol.
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