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| PD on Why Brawl is TOTALLY Diferent From Melee; And why the arguments need to stop | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 13 2008, 08:00 PM (678 Views) | |
| sephiroth667 | Aug 13 2008, 08:00 PM Post #1 |
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Nostalgia
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Okay people. Basically you find a "Melee is better than Brawl" topic posted every fifteen minutes on Smashboards, and we even have one here. I'm here to tell you that it is impossible for one to be better than the other. Yes, strange concept. This is why though: They are of two different genres. Melee is a competitive fighter which relies on hitstun and spacing to make combos and strategies that allow you to rack up damage and either send your opponent flying or set the up for an edgeguard. This is similar to a standard competitive fighter such as Third Strike, except for the edge, which allows for edgeguarding to become an additional skill. Brawl is also a competitive fighter. However, instead of relying on hitstun and combos to rack up damage, it relies on mindgames, brickwalls, and traps. This makes the game appear much more out-of-face. Whereas Melee always had you in your opponents face somehow, the air dodge, spot dodge, and shield stun (or lack thereof) systems allow you to escape offensive opponents and punish poor spacing or over-aggressiveness easier. This means camping becomes a more viable option. Magnetic ledges also makes edgeguarding more difficult. Two different strategies, two different games. If you prefer a more standard fighter with the edge factor added in, you will obviously prefer Melee. If you like to think more during a game, you will probably prefer Brawl. There are, however, a few more factors I will address: Tripping - Brawl has it, Melee doesn't. Tripping is gay. No one likes it. I saw something brilliant in someone's signature however: Stocks Lost/Taken from Tripping: 0 Matches Lost/Won from Tripping: 0 This is to say, yeah it's gay, we get it. But honestly, it will almost never effect a match GREATLY. You may hear someone go "Oh man I had a really bad trip and I got punished for it" but the fact is: this is something that happens rarely, and if it does it has an even lesser chance of causing you to LOSE. I have even been saved by tripping before, oddly enough. Camping - It's more encouraged in Brawl. I've heard people say "Whoever can camp better, wins" This statement is false. If someone likes to camp, their strategy is defeated by approaching intelligently. SHADing, rolling, SHing, etc. and mixing them up. Snake, Meta Knight, and to a lesser extent D3 - The top 3 of the game. Things are, folks, this game has only been out a few months. There's ways to beat them, and most Snakes and D3s, and even MKs are pretty predictable. I didn't follow Melee early on, but I'm sure it was the same. These three also bring up the point of tiers, the gap between the rich and the poor that is. There's more characters, so obviously it will seem as though the gap is larger. If anyone has any questions, comments, or hates you can post. You can also point something else you'd like me to address
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| cool story bro | Aug 13 2008, 08:11 PM Post #2 |
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Prepare to get brutally owned by Lucas and Kashif for making this topic. ![]() That being said, I both agree and disagree with you. No, I don't think Brawl is a shitty game by any means, I've had a lot of fun with it since it came out. But yes, Brawl isn't very good for competitive play, and Melee is miles ahead in that field. Addressing your individual points: Tripping is gay, we all know it, etc etc. No further explanations needed. Camping - Yeah, you can beat camping by "playing intelligently" and doing all that wonderful stuff. But guess what, (most) people find that very boring! The fact that camping is such a strong strategy really just hurts the game as a whole. Characters - I haven't really followed the scene since around May, but I'm pretty sure that Wario and a few other characters have been doing better. I agree that the gap seems a lot bigger because of how many characters there are. But I'm inclined to disagree about how the tier list will supposedly change a lot. The game has been played intensively since it's release, you would think that a lot of great stuff for these non-super-amazing-characters would have been found by now. Conclusion: Melee is a better competitive game than Brawl. However, Brawl is certainly not a super shitty game overall, and personal preference may come into play when deciding which game is better. |
| A NEW WORLD ORDER | |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 13 2008, 08:18 PM Post #3 |
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Nostalgia
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I don't mind getting attacked. Camping isn't as strong as it seems, it's one of the most simple strategies, but simple strategies also have simple answers. If all my opponent is gonna do is try and camp, so be it, I'll beat that. Yes, many characters are starting to place better with Wario being one of the more popular ones. ROB, Falco, Marth, Kirby, and other Characters are also placing higher. I agree the tier list might not change all that much, but it will be easier to beat the higher tier characters as it progresses. I agree that Melee classifies more as a competitive fighter, but Brawl fits a different bill which is also competitive. |
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| Admin | Aug 13 2008, 08:31 PM Post #4 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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This subforum isn't Brawl-only btw, so Melee topics are very much allowed.
This is completely false, at least in comparision to Melee. Melee doesn't have mindgames? You can't trick people and mess them up in melee? Bullshit. The only difference is it happens so much faster. Its funner to watch, and you don't have to camp. Magnetic ledges make edgeguarding next to impossible. Edge-play involved skill, and they took that out. Along with technical skill.
At equal skill level, the camper wins. This is a fact. Of course if you are a lot better than someone else, you can beat them. Its possible for Mewtwo to beat Fox in Melee if they are a hell of alot better. Doesn't mean anything tho.
The fact that game hasn't been out for a while doesn't mean much. The reason things changed from early Melee to late, was because of the skill ceiling. Technical skill, to be exact. Characters like Fox and Falco really required alot of technical skill to play. At the beginning, Sheik and Marth were king. But then players started to learn how to play Space Animals better, the metagame changed, and they became the top tier. Is there something that will allow this to happen to Brawl? With its inferior physics engine, I doubt it. Technical skill is out the window. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 13 2008, 09:12 PM Post #5 |
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Nostalgia
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I didn't say they weren't.
I didn't say it didn't have mindgames. It just didn't RELY on mindgames. It relied on combos and hitstun to keep your opponent at bay. You may think it's funner to watch, and that's good for you. I also don't see how magnetic ledges make edgeguarding impossible, all it does is encourage off-ledge edgeguarding. IMO if you were trying to recover low in Melee, you couldn't, especially Spacies because some character like Marth would just Dair you.
How is that a fact lol? Camping is way simple to beat. I mean if camping is this games "best" strategy, how come a majority of the top tiers can't even camp and an amazing camper like Samus winds up in low tier?
New techs are being found out every day, different strategies are being developed, and potential is being exploited. Characters like Luigi and Pokemon Trainer have barely had their metagame touched yet, and I personally believe both of them hold a lot of potential. The large amount of characters AND playstyles in this game means you can almost never be safe. I still don't get what you mean by inferior physics engine, since melee's feels a lot more screwy to me, but whatever you say. And as far as tech skill being out the window, it's just less of a focus. You have to mindgame and trap/brickwall more often, but there is tech skill in there as well |
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| Admin | Aug 13 2008, 10:24 PM Post #6 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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Edge-guarding was an art in Melee. Whether you got back or not, all depended on skill and mindgames. Mindgames had a lot to do with melee. Mindgames have alot to do with EVERY FIGHTER out there. Brawl's problem, is it ONLY has mindgames. And it really isn't as much mindgames as Melee, since its just a camp fest, and less viable strategies.
WTF everyone camps in this game, what are you talking about? If Samus was good at camping, she wouldn't be so bad.
Name any sort of technical skill in Brawl that compares to something like SHFFLing in Melee. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 13 2008, 10:42 PM Post #7 |
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Nostalgia
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Before I post anything again I AM NOT SAYING ONE GAME IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER! STOP ASSUMING I'M HATING ON MELEE, IT'S JUST NOT MY TYPE OF GAME!
Brawl makes it possible to come back. It is more focused on actually edge guarding, not waiting for the exact moment to react. And I have no idea what you mean by camp fest and less viable strategies.
Yes because Meta Knight, Game and Watch, and Marth ALL can totally camp and D3 and Snake want to camp a whole lot of the time. And Samus CAN camp well, have no clue what you're talking about.
Melee was all about technical skill everyone could do like Wavedashing and SHFFLing. Brawl gives almost every character their own special trait, or a trait they only share with a few others. Snake has the Mortar Slide, MK has his own combos, Falco has Boost Smashing and SHDLing, Marth requires INSANE spacing due to his tip, it goes on. |
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| Admin | Aug 13 2008, 11:01 PM Post #8 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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Camping doesn't just mean sitting in one position and spamming ranged attacks. Camping means staying defense, using really safe/long reaching attacks, to force your oppenent to attack you at a situation where they have the advantage. And just about all characters that are good in this game do that, because thats how its played.
Tech like that, isn't like Melee tech. And I don't see some new aspect of the physics engine being discovered that will alter the tier list dramatically. Like, waveshining just brought in a whole new level of Fox play when people started doing it. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 13 2008, 11:13 PM Post #9 |
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Nostalgia
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Against some characters you need to play defensively. But as a Marth main I can use a few styles. Against a Meta Knight, yeah I'm gonna play defense. Against a character like D3, I play a mix of both. Against someone like Falco, I happen to play very offensively. It really all depends. And why does drastically changing the tier list aid the game in any way? Just because it isn't the same game as Melee, and will not advance in the way Melee did as far as changing tiers, does NOT make it a bad game. |
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| Admin | Aug 13 2008, 11:16 PM Post #10 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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Being a bad game, and being gay, are two different things. My point really was to say that due to the type of game Melee was, and due to its physics engine, there was tech there that people were able to find, that changed up the tier lists. The Physics engine in Brawl will not allow for someone like Metaknight to be dethroned.
Marth spams and camps with his Fair in this game. Does he not do that in nearly all MUs (matchups)? |
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| Inui | Aug 13 2008, 11:19 PM Post #11 |
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Power of Flower
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What you've been posting merely shows how very little you actually know about the competitive scene. A few major errors you've made: -Game and Watch and Meta Knight are two of the best campers in the game, and you said they don't/can't camp. Meta Knight players have all become incredibly campy recently. -Saying the games are of a different genre is stupid. Both are party games warped to become a 2D fighter. -Melee is definitely a far better game. It plays better, is tons more legit as a competitive game, and it's nowhere near as boring and simple. -Brawl is indeed far less balanced. Low tiers in Melee had death combos and positives in general. Pichu and Mewtwo could death combo Fox and Falco. In Brawl, a character like Ganondorf can't do anything to the good characters and he just gets raped. I told you a while ago to avoid posting like this because it makes you look very ignorant with regards to Smash and you're just inviting Kashif and I, and Sentenal to a lesser extent, to make you look like a fool. You need to play actual good people to see why this game sucks. Watch my actual amazing Ganondorf and Captain Falcon get crushed by someone like Kashif using a decent character. Watch a match get greatly affected by someone dying at 20% by tripping into Snake's f-smash. Brawl sucks. Melee takes more technical skill AND more intelligence. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 13 2008, 11:30 PM Post #12 |
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Nostalgia
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I find it funny that I'M the person being called ignorant, when all I hear is people talking about how you can't beat camping in this game, and that because Brawl is not EXACTLY like Melee it is a bad game. -Meta Knight is an aggressive character who really doesn't need to camp, If, overnight, he has become a campy character, my fault. I also feel that GnW is a character best played aggressive. Maybe I'm confused, because I'm under the impression that properly spacing =/= camping. -They are of a SIMILAR genre but are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT GAMES. This is like comparing games like Counter Strike and Halo. Both are of the same genre, but are played differently. -Because a game is more like a standard fighter. it's better? Think outside the box. -Again, this is because there's more characters. As a population grows, gaps get bigger. This allows for a "God" tier and a "Trash" tier to open up. It's just something that happens. Also for that tripping into Snakes F-smash: chances of tripping, and also tripping into, and also tripping into a Snake using F-smash, a move he barely ever uses, that's gonna happen one in a billion times unless that Snake is a mind reader and can tell when the trip will happen. |
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| Admin | Aug 13 2008, 11:36 PM Post #13 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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I think your definition of Camping is probably wrong.
Counter Strike is a better game.
When it comes down to preferences, games you like are better than games you don't like. Obviously in terms of "what is a good game", you really can't get objective definitions.
Population has nothing to do with the difference of usability the best characters in the game have in comparison to the worst. For a fighting game, the aim of the game should be to get every character as close in usefulness as the others. For console games, this is next to impossible to actually achieve, but its the goal. And the fact of the matter is, the bad characters in this game get raped harder than the bad character in melee. And that is a bad thing. Having more tiers is stupid, because the goal of a game is to have a few tiers as possible, for more balance. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 13 2008, 11:42 PM Post #14 |
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Nostalgia
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If it is, please correct me.
In your opinion, but that wasn't the point
I agree, which is why I hate when people say Melee is better.
In my opinion, that's just something that happens. In a ame like Melee with so few characters it sort of looks like this: Very Good>Good>Alright>Pretty Bad>Bad Where Brawl looks something like this: Really Good>Very Good>Good>Alright>Pretty Bad>Bad>Trash However, the glory of that is that there are only a few characters in the new tiers created. There is also the factor that a character like Pikachu, often found in mid/high tier can beat Mr. God Tier Snake. |
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| Admin | Aug 13 2008, 11:48 PM Post #15 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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Well, define what you think camping means, so I can correct it.
I think Starcraft is a better game than WC3. I like Starcraft alot more. WC3 fans might not like that, but thats how I feel. Same with Melee and Brawl.
That is an undesired outcome, and not something you should just look past. Having a more imbalanced game, regardless of the reasons, is not a good thing. |
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