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| PD on Why Brawl is TOTALLY Diferent From Melee; And why the arguments need to stop | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 13 2008, 08:00 PM (679 Views) | |
| sephiroth667 | Aug 13 2008, 11:53 PM Post #16 |
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Nostalgia
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Camping means being the reactive player, staying at a range, and avoiding direct confrontation at all cost. Usually remaining stationary during this, except to avoid your opponent. Saying you prefer something =/= Totally bashing something without backing it up, what most people do. The outcome may be undesired, but it just kind of happens. I would be happier is Snake or MK weren't as good as they were, and Craptain Falcon and Ganon were a little better. But, eh, Sakurai |
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| Admin | Aug 14 2008, 12:03 AM Post #17 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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You don't have to avoid direct confrontation to camp. Camping is playing defensive, keeping your enemy where you want them with either ranged attacks, moves with good range, or high priority, and forcing them into a situation where if they attack you, they are disadvantaged.
Semantics, just don't dwell on it so much. If I say Brawl is gay, I'm not saying everyone who likes it is.
Its a negative about the game you seem to either be brushing aside, or excusing. Bad balance is bad. You try to make a game balanced when making it. And if you fail, you failed, no johns. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 14 2008, 12:11 AM Post #18 |
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Nostalgia
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That's where I'm wrong, I guess. There is a fine line between proper spacing and camping. I mean, if that's what you'd call camping, I could name a bunch of other fighters where certain characters "camp" and win off that *coughAkumainThirdStrikecough* and it throws the metagame off. I believe that you win any fighter game with good spacing, though, so it confuses me how this is seen as a noobish thing to do. You would know how I feel about that Sent, seeing as we're both Conservatives and liberals are key at doing stuff that that. I'm not brushing it aside. I said that I wish it wasn't as noticable, but people still make it like MK or Snake are unbeatable: They're not. It's not as though they're absolutely unbeatable, you just have to outplay them. |
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| Admin | Aug 14 2008, 02:06 AM Post #19 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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Spacing is on thing, camping is another. Spacing can be used offensively. For example, trying to get the tip of Marth's sword in a Fsmash or soemthing. An example of camping would be to keep using Sheik's Bair vs Fox in Melee, to keep him away from you and build damage. Camping isn't always a bad thing. It is a bad thing when its the primary tactic in a game. |
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| (*Jman*) | Aug 14 2008, 05:09 AM Post #20 |
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Kakatte Koi!
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You left out a LOT when talking about Melee. Melee is not just "lol hit the person one time on each stock before they hit you one time on each stock and you win the match"
Melee has mindgames, brickwalls, and traps. Brickwalls and traps are like 99% of Vidjo's style in Melee. When I fought him I didn't attack HIM. He would float at a perfect distance away from you that if you tried to go and attack where he was he would float back slightly and fair you. I attacked the area he was going to move back into. When somebody grabs the ledge and you're on the stage, trying to keep them off the stage/on the ledge is done through the use of brickwalls and traps. Not by technical skill. You can use more mindgames in Melee because you have more OPTIONS. You can do SO MUCH MORE and so can your opponent.
Melee requires more thinking. SOOO many types of thinking were removed in Brawl. I am never going to think, "should I end my combo early by fsmashing because they won't expect it so that they'll die at 40?" Techchasing, which was a heavy portion for a lot of characters gameplay, BARELY exists in this game for a FEW characters. You don't have to think about how your opponent is going to respond after you throw them into the ground that much anymore.
That's nice. It doesn't change the fact that at almost every tournament I've been at somebody has lost a set and somebody has won a set where the final deciding factor was a trip. I didn't lose a set but I lost a tournament match where I tripped into Snake's fully charged fsmash and died at 30. I have lost COUNTLESS stocks because of tripping and COUNTLESS edgeguard opportunities vs Snake because after hitting him off the stage I would end up tripping as soon as I dashed to go after him.
This is 100% garbage. Whoever camps better IS the person who wins. No amount of mixing up between all the possible offensive options in Brawl is enough to keep the person who is better at camping from winning every match unless they lose because of tripping/footstooling. Plank 3 stocked Chillin because he just ledgecamped the entire match. I've won a few 2v1s where everyone was at last stock with Jigglypuff simply because I camped better than my opponents.
I don't care if BAD Snakes, Metas, and Dededes are predictable. They don't matter. What matters are the GOOD ones. Snake and Meta limit your options SOOOOOOOOOO much by BARELY doing anything. Especially Snake. And Dedede wins by running at you and shieldgrabbing. That is 90+% of his strategy and the fact that it actually works is absolutely retarded. It's not just that there are more characters. Guilty Gear has a lot of characters too, that doesn't make it massively unbalanced. Even mid tiers in Brawl have matchups where they are absolutely massively raped to the point of having basically no chance of winning. Fox is a good example of this. He is mid tier in Brawl and for all of his strengths, he has NOTHING to beat Pikachu with. Nothing makes up for the amount of damage he takes when he gets grabbed and not to mention Pika is better at fighting, camping, AND recovering then Fox is. That is absolutely idiotic.
Spacing dtilts on shield = camping. In fact, it's a special type of camping called poking. Poking and zoning are how Marth and Metaknight camp. Of course, they can also camp by just ledgecamping all day. That is how Plank 3 stocked Chillin. Samus isn't a good camper at all. Her zair goes over the heads of short characters, smash missiles have pathetic knockback as do homing missiles, which leaves her with ftilt and up b out of shield. Both of those are ok but not anything special. |
![]() ![]() Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto | |
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| Inui | Aug 14 2008, 12:57 PM Post #21 |
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Power of Flower
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You're ignorant because you made a lot of wrong statements. It's not about Brawl not being exactly like Melee. It's about Brawl plain sucking. Meta Knight is one of the campiest characters now. Get with the program, kid. Haven't you heard of Plank or Jman by now? They're in our region. Game and Watch also does nothing but camp aerials, specifically back air. That's it. They're not totally different. They actually have more in common than otherwise. That's not what I said. I like different types of fighters more than the traditional ones, which is why I play Smash. No. The gap is because the balancing in this game sucks. Pichu vs Fox is way more even than Ganondorf vs Meta Knight. Guilty Gear got MORE balanced with each new version, yet more characters were added. I have tripped and lost matches due to it. I have won because of tripping. I lost a tournament match to Azen that I probably would have won because I tripped five times at crucial moments. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 14 2008, 03:18 PM Post #22 |
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Nostalgia
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I wasn't going to explain every part of the game, only the basics upon which the game is fought. If I wanted to get into the entire game, it would have taken a lot longer of a post.
That's nice for Vidjo, but most players don't play like that. That's like saying ROB is an aggressive character because maxpower plays a really aggressive ROB. Explain how you can do "so much more" if your options are basically the same, except on stage edgeguarding takes the backseat while off-stage edgeguarding became the way in Brawl to do so.
Again, how was thinking removed from Brawl? With the new airdodge system, spotdodging, SDI becoming an imperative part of escaping some attacks, and almost every other way of thinking in Melee it seems to require thinking, although a different kind. As far as techchasing is concerned, I agree that it's not seen as often in Brawl. I just don't see how that's that big of a deal, considering I find there's even more thinking than in Melee.
Too bad for you, I've never even lost a casual match thanks to it. The good thing is the code for no tripping has just been released on the Homebrew Channel and hopefully will start to get used in tournaments. It cancels outs random trips, but allows dtilt and banana trips.
Ledgecamping just forces an approach, so I have no idea how he lost that unless he was just way too scared to approach. And your claims about "the better camper wins" is still unfounded.
MOST, like 95%. Then we get up to the 5% that's good and they're STILL extremely predictable. Snake does like, 5 things. Meta Does the same, and all D3 wants to do is chaingrab. Am I to assume that you find it difficult to read someone's Snake? [QUOTEOmni]Spacing dtilts on shield = camping. In fact, it's a special type of camping called poking. Poking and zoning are how Marth and Metaknight camp. Of course, they can also camp by just ledgecamping all day. That is how Plank 3 stocked Chillin. Samus isn't a good camper at all. Her zair goes over the heads of short characters, smash missiles have pathetic knockback as do homing missiles, which leaves her with ftilt and up b out of shield. Both of those are ok but not anything special.[/QUOTE] I use Dtilt as an offensive move lol so...I guess if most Marth's want to "camp" they can go ahead but I'm only gonna play that way in a few matchups.
Ignorance is not knowing something and refusing to know it. If I'm wrong about something, I ask you please correct me but do it in a way where your statement is founded, not just saying things like "camparz r winnarz lol"
No, I haven't heard of those people. Actually I may have heard of Jman...eh. The point is the only MK's I've come across like Beast have been aggressive. If what game and Watch does is called camping then go ahead and call it that, I won't.
Then why don't all CS players play Shwaylo? Because the gameplay is different, so they don't like it, because it's not what they're used to.
That appears to be what you're saying.
I don't follow the Guilty Gear scene, but if I had to guess I would say that some characters just go absolutely unused. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
I told Omni about it, so now I'll post the link: Look Ma, No Trips! And for some reason it's not allowing me to quote lots of things
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| Inui | Aug 14 2008, 04:06 PM Post #23 |
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Power of Flower
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Kashif and I have been correcting you. You play only local players in your area who are at BEST just average or slightly above average, so you've never experienced high level play or really even seen it yet. I'd love to play those bad Meta Knights. One time, at a big tournament in losers finals, Kashif decided to be aggressive in the first match against my Marth and he got trashed. Twostocked, to be exact. Then he picked Jigglypuff and camped massively every match and almost won the set. That's how stupid this game is, and that's how bad actually being aggressive against a good player is. Nope. Even the worst characters in the game, Johnny and Bridget, get used in tournaments and can win. That can't happen in Brawl because low tiers don't have combos and get camped to death easily. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 14 2008, 04:11 PM Post #24 |
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Nostalgia
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I've also played aainst NYC weekly players and some of the best players in NYS lol. Have you ever heard of Eli, Eli mination on SWF? He's easily one of the best players in the state, and also Beast a player who places really well at NYC weeklies. You can call them bad all you want, but do come here and try to play them. Okay I stand corrected then. And really Craptain Falcon and Ganon are the only two characters who absolutely, positively CANNOT be taken seriously as characters and I've even seen vids of the Craptain doing well. |
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| Inui | Aug 14 2008, 04:27 PM Post #25 |
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Power of Flower
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Eli isn't that special. Bum is the best. NinjaLink, D1, Jman, Snakeee, Shadow, Dire, and many others consistently do better than him. He's honestly just a bit above average and Kashif and I are most certainly quite a bit better. He's not someone you should cite as an example of high level play. Play with Bum, D1, or NinjaLink. Those are the top three players near you. Why would I travel to Long Island to play mediocre Meta Knights? I can just play the best one in the world instead. Captain Falcon is a tier above Ganondorf, imo. I play both characters seriously as low tier mains and find Captain Falcon to be significantly better at dealing with camping. |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 14 2008, 04:33 PM Post #26 |
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Nostalgia
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I played against Snakeee at the tournament in CT and imo he wasn't anything special. I've seen vids of Bum and wasn't that impressed, he plays only slightly better than my friend Will IMO. Soon I plan on travelling into the city a few times for NYC weeklies and we're starting to hold a lot of tourneys out here where good people from the city are coming. And idk when the last time you saw Eli play was but last time I did I was very impressed. The point was that there's few characters I would pick as totally nonviable. |
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| Inui | Aug 14 2008, 04:40 PM Post #27 |
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Power of Flower
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I mean, damn, you played Snakeee in friendlies before one time and think he's not special. I teamed with him twice and I have fought him in teams and I money matched him. He also consistently rapes the NYC weeklies and even has won them before. He's far better than Eli. Wow, you've seen VIDS of Bum and don't think he's special when he's gotten 1st at every NYC weekly that he ever entered? Judging from vids in Melee was bad enough, but judging from vids in Brawl where nothing looks impressive and the game is painfully simple? Get real. It's much easier for you to be impressed than for me to be impressed. I find...Mew2King and Azen impressive. Chillin and NEO are pretty good. Someone at Eli's level doesn't impress me at all because I play the best all the time. I would say most of the cast isn't viable because of Meta Knight, Snake, and Dedede. It's really true. Dedede literally negates 1/3 of the cast, rapes the other 1/3, and can actually lose to the other 1/3. Meta Knight assrapes anything not top tier. Few characters can handle Snake's hitboxes and camping. |
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| (*Jman*) | Aug 14 2008, 04:50 PM Post #28 |
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Kakatte Koi!
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that is such an ugly post because of the quote tags being messed up.
haha you said "really aggressive" in Brawl, nice joke there. As for Vidjo, every Peach that isn't 100% garbage is going to play that way when somebody is on a ledge. Your options AREN'T basically the same. Wavedashing opens up an ENTIRE new form of movement to punish and attack with. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJmagsD6_1U&fmt=18 There are a lot of clips in that video that show what can be done with wavedashing. 1:20 is something that can never be done in Brawl. In Melee when you're on the ledge you have TONS of options. Ledgehopping with an attack as soon as you grab the ledge so that you're invincible during it. Perfect waveland from the ledge so that you have a few frames of invincibility to do something. You can also ROLL from the ledge in Melee and if your opponent isn't expecting it they aren't going to be able to stop it unlike Brawl where if you're expecting someone to jump up with an attack you can punish rolling from ledge super easily. The fact that you can actually hit your opponent's shield numerous times without getting punished opens up a lot of possibilities.
Pressing L/R as soon as your opponent does [insert anything here] does not require thinking. SDI is not thinking and exists in Melee. Spotdodging exists in Melee. Techchasing is mainly thinking. Your opponent is going to try to intelligently mixup how they DI the throw as well as tech rolling one direction, tech rolling the other direction, teching in place, and missing techs. Yes, you can cover multiple options but you can't cover every single option except at the ledge. Most people techchase by guessing how their opponent is going to tech and punishing that.
Then you're super lucky or you play with people who are absolutely abysmal at Brawl. Neither one changes the fact that at basically every tournament I've been at there have been sets where the final deciding factor was tripping. You might as well say turn certain items on and if you get screwed because they spawn next to your opponent "too bad for you"
You are forced to approach in a situation where your opponent has a massive advantage and can easily react to anything you do and hit you before/after it. Also, you can get hit off the stage/into the stage and get gimped. No, my factual statement about the better camper winning is 100% accurate. Not to mention you gave absolutely no information at all to backup YOUR claim that the best camper doesn't win. All you did was list strategies that don't beat good camping. Mew2King after winning FAST "Brawl is so boring. You have to camp to win"
I was ledgecamping/camping under the stage in 2/3 of those that I won on Delfino. Granted, in one of them I accidentally hit up b when it came down to me vs a Meta Knight I was fighting and he fell asleep and the stage went up killing him. I won a match with Jigglypuff against a Meta Knight on Brinstar by just camping under the stage the entire match. He actually killed my 2nd stock before I killed his but he tripped immediately so I got to kill him and resume camping. Two matches vs Emblem Lord in Meta vs Marth I was winning and I decided to play aggressive for the rest of the match. Both of those matches I lost. I won the set because I camped the other 3 matches and he tripped at the end of one of the matches which set me up for a dsmash --> edgeguard.
It doesn't matter if all Snake does are a few things. That's ALL he needs to win. Gay grenade camping, ftilting out of shield, recovering high and wavebouncing a C4/grenade, random bair instead of airdodge when you're above someone, uptilting at high %, and boost smash are ALL he needs to win. Almost nothing can be done about those. He shuts down most of the cast with just that and the FEW characters that can fight him have IMMENSE trouble with that. By just walking up to you with a grenade in his hand, he shuts down 99.9% of possible things you can do. That is absolute bullshit. Grenades dropped intelligently make Snake retardedly safe. It doesn't matter if all Dedede wants to do is run at you and shieldgrab. That WORKS. It's VERY hard to stop for most characters in the game. Snake is so broken it DOESN'T MATTER if you know what he's going to do because you are still going to be hit by his gayness. It is unavoidable. It doesn't matter if I KNOW my opponent wants to ftilt me. "Don't get hit" is a great strategy to follow but when the ftilt has super massive range and comes out super fast there isn't much you can do about it. At low % you HIT HIM and you get ftilted because of the lack of hitstun in the game.
LOL @ using dtilt offensively. As I said, spaced dtilt on shield != playing offensive. See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtK_sj-ut1M Shooting lasers in someone's face is not offensive either.
Nah @ Falcon being a tier above Ganondorf. Falcon can't do anything once he gets in and is trash in teams. Ganon's tanking, killing ability, and massive damage that he gets in team combos > Falcon. |
![]() ![]() Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto | |
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| sephiroth667 | Aug 14 2008, 04:57 PM Post #29 |
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Nostalgia
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@Inui: No I didn't play him in friendlies. I played him IN A TOURNAMENT MATCH. And I've also seen vids of Bum playing Melee. He's good, yeah. I'm going to save any more statements I make until a later date. Obviously until I play anyone Inui dubs as really good people, all my opinions will be seen as wrong. |
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| Inui | Aug 14 2008, 05:19 PM Post #30 |
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Power of Flower
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oh, lol. Then it's a bit more valid. If it means anything to you, Snakeee sucks against Marth. I raped him and he even lost to Emblem Lord. It's still only one set. You could always say something that's correct. Kashif and I proved everything wrong. Brawl sucks. |
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that is such an ugly post because of the quote tags being messed up.
9:37 AM Jul 11