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Shooters v. Fighters
Topic Started: Aug 11 2008, 06:03 PM (480 Views)
cool story bro


Pearl Fey
Aug 15 2008, 05:18 PM
Here's a thought:
Just accept both are genres that are hard to master and stop THE POINTLESS TOPIC-DERAILING DISCUSSION

Or make a new thread for "hardest game genre". That way you can actually have this discussion, which is pretty interesting, without completely killing the Soul Calibur topic. :o
A NEW WORLD ORDER
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Inui
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Power of Flower

Pearl Fey
Aug 15 2008, 04:18 PM
Here's a thought:
Just accept both are genres that are hard to master and stop THE POINTLESS TOPIC-DERAILING DISCUSSION

Of course I know both are difficult to master, have lots of depth, and are large competitive communities.

I enjoy debating. This is actually a fun discussion and Ken actually sounded intelligent beyond his first dumb statement, even though a lot of his other stuff was wrong. His knowledge of shooters is probably the highest at FEFF.
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Hakado
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The Card Master

Inui
Aug 15 2008, 11:21 PM
Pearl Fey
Aug 15 2008, 04:18 PM
Here's a thought:
Just accept both are genres that are hard to master and stop THE POINTLESS TOPIC-DERAILING DISCUSSION

Of course I know both are difficult to master, have lots of depth, and are large competitive communities.

I enjoy debating. This is actually a fun discussion and Ken actually sounded intelligent beyond his first dumb statement, even though a lot of his other stuff was wrong. His knowledge of shooters is probably the highest at FEFF.

Congratulations.
Now do as PW suggested and make a thread about it instead of derailing the SC IV thread >_>
Previously known as: Serra, Hakato, Hakado, Dorgie Poo, Pearl Fey, Kallen and Sailor Moon

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msn
 
Jordan says:
NO. I'M A WOMAN. I'M NEVER SATISFIED

Weird as fuck, isnt he?
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-HJ-
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I've failed to come up with something witty, so I hope you will enjoy this filler text instead.

This discussion interests me.

At the very least, do what Phil said and move it to another topic. Just don't kill it.
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Inui
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Power of Flower

A moderator can split the topic. That'd be cool.
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Linoud
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Knight of Seven

Lucas, I did say I'll conceed that first part, did I not? That was just me randomly saying something before actually sitting down to type the rest of my post. We'll continue this in the split topic. B|
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Askio
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Beginning and End

Kristoph Gavin
Aug 15 2008, 09:23 PM
This discussion interests me.

At the very least, do what Phil said and move it to another topic. Just don't kill it.

Thats what Ive been saying to do now for like 4 or 5 of my past posts. D: D: D:
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Reaver
Troll

Inui
Aug 15 2008, 04:35 PM
Wow, aiming and reacting =/= technical skill.

In a lot of fighters you have to push a button 12 times in a single second or you have to push an elaborate series of buttons extremely quickly.  In Melee, you even have to follow DI while doing this.  You're acting within a couple frames very often and have to deal with a constant barrage of moves that are merely a few frames.

The depth in a fighter exceeds that of a shooter because of combos, more defensive options, and more offensive options.

I'm calling bullshit here. Consider what you're saying with "Aiming and Reacting", just for a moment.

Image 1 1024 x 768 Pixels
Image 2 31 x 30 Pixels

930/786432 = Less than 1%, .118% to be specific. A person, while moving, dodging, being aware of their environment, and physically shooting must keep the recticle, that small portion of the screen, on the target. In many cases, to make matters much harder, the recticle needs to be on the target's head in order to achieve victory. >1% of the Screen having to line up with >1% of the screen is, to say the least, fucking nuts. Should I also mention that players in half-decent FPSes must also account for spray? It's a lot less button pressing, certainly not 12 in a second, but a lot more precision when you do press buttons. The precision required makes the technical skill insane, especially when in many instances a person needs to keep readjusting their aim to hit targets that will be in the recticle for a time frame of less than a second.

Oh, and if you're going to argue depth consider weapon advantage, camping, and teamwork all in varied environments. Fighters, in most instances, are just "lol flat space no obstacles" and if you consider Smash a fighter it's "lol only one or two platforms" at the most. Shooters, in most instances, are complex buildings where you cannot see your opponent nor know what's coming. The complexities of a map alone give shooters a ton of depth.

and with this I split the topic
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Crysta
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wat

I've beaten players far more skilled than I in fighters just by reacting. Sometimes consistently. And they wanted to murder me.

I suck at shooters.

Guess which one I find requires more skill. :tom:
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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GODonPCP
 
I always give frying pans to female survivors in Dead Rising. It's really the only thing I'm confident they know how to use.
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Inui
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Lelouch
Aug 15 2008, 05:30 PM
I've beaten players far more skilled than I in fighters just by reacting. Sometimes consistently. And they wanted to murder me.

I am the only good player you have ever played, and I crushed you easily. You can't count beating randoms.

@Reaver:
Quote:
 
I'm calling bullshit here. Consider what you're saying with "Aiming and Reacting", just for a moment.

Image 1 1024 x 768 Pixels
Image 2 31 x 30 Pixels

930/786432 = Less than 1%, .118% to be specific. A person, while moving, dodging, being aware of their environment, and physically shooting must keep the recticle, that small portion of the screen, on the target. In many cases, to make matters much harder, the recticle needs to be on the target's head in order to achieve victory. >1% of the Screen having to line up with >1% of the screen is, to say the least, fucking nuts. Should I also mention that players in half-decent FPSes must also account for spray? It's a lot less button pressing, certainly not 12 in a second, but a lot more precision when you do press buttons. The precision required makes the technical skill insane, especially when in many instances a person needs to keep readjusting their aim to hit targets that will be in the recticle for a time frame of less than a second.


Dude, that's not technical skill. That's having the precision and focus to aim steadily and accurately.

Consider how fast a frame is. 1/60th of a second.

Quote:
 
Oh, and if you're going to argue depth consider weapon advantage, camping, and teamwork all in varied environments. Fighters, in most instances, are just "lol flat space no obstacles" and if you consider Smash a fighter it's "lol only one or two platforms" at the most. Shooters, in most instances, are complex buildings where you cannot see your opponent nor know what's coming. The complexities of a map alone give shooters a ton of depth.


Smash has a lot more stages than just normal ones. Haven't you heard of counterpicks?

Anyways, the different maps do indeed add depth to shooters.

Here's an example of depth.

Defensive options in Guilty Gear:
-Blocking (high, low, aerial)
-Faultess Defense (uses tension and prevents chip damage, and allows the blocking of ground moves from the air)
-Burst (you can use this rarely and it allows you to escape a combo at any point)
-Dash (you can often just dash back, and some characters like Slayer can dash through you)
-Various invincibles/supers
-Using offense/priority as your defense

Options for oki (when you have your opponent on the ground) for just a single character, Slayer:
-6K: Forward kick that's an overhead and has +frames on block and is throw invincible; this is generally the best option.
-Dust: This is and overhead that sets up for a great combo, and it's wise to do because people almost always block low.
-JH: This move is an aerial, and thus an overhead, and it's priority is so good it's often called the God Hand.
-Just stand there and wait for the opponent to do something on wake-up, which is necessary against Sol due to his invincible wake-up DP. For other characters, you can just use Slayer's command throw if they get up and don't do something immediately.
-Dash through them into a grab.
-Dandy Step; there are three versions of the Dandy Step and you can do four different moves out of a Dandy Step.

Wow holy shit that's JUST ONE CHARACTER that has more defensive options than anything in a shooter and all those options for oki add even more depth.

Edit: Bring on Ken. His knowledge of shooters is the most here. :)
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Crysta
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wat

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Lelouch
Aug 15 2008, 05:30 PM
I've beaten players far more skilled than I in fighters just by reacting. Sometimes consistently. And they wanted to murder me.

I am the only good player you have ever played, and I crushed you easily. You can't count beating randoms.


Not talking about Smash only.

And when you include all the Street Fighters, Bloody Roars, Tekkens, Soul Calibers... you actually aren't the most impressive person I've played. :NomNomNom: But I didn't beat them either.

I beat Sojamania in Marvel vs. Capcom 2 which meanz I'm pr0.

In general, I still say shooters > fighters in terms of difficulty. For the average person. I know because I'm average. :NomNomNom:
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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GODonPCP
 
I always give frying pans to female survivors in Dead Rising. It's really the only thing I'm confident they know how to use.
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Inui
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Power of Flower

Lelouch
Aug 15 2008, 05:37 PM
Not talking about Smash only.

And when you include all the Street Fighters, Bloody Roars, Tekkens, Soul Calibers... you actually aren't the most impressive person I've played. :NomNomNom: But I didn't beat them either.

In general, I still say shooters > fighters in terms of difficulty. For the average person. I know because I'm average. :NomNomNom:

Wow, neither am I.

No. You may think that, but it's definitely wrong. Unless you've played people that are nearly at the top of the country in their respective game, then you didn't play anyone better than me.

Fighters are easier to pick up initially than shooters. I'd agree with that.
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AdamNW
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Needs moar Sety

Quote:
 
I am the only good player you have ever played, and I crushed you easily. You can't count beating randoms.

Wrong, you can. This is easily proven by a players level and record in SC4, for example.

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Dude, that's not technical skill. That's having the precision and focus to aim steadily and accurately.

Are you mentally retarded? What do you think technical skill IS in a shooting game?

Quote:
 
Smash has a lot more stages than just normal ones. Haven't you heard of counterpicks?

Relevancy pl0x? Counterpicks offer almost no differences other then minor stage changes, like in Halberd when the ONLY thing making it a counter pick is an insanely dodgeable laser.

lol, he was talking about the LEVELS, not the CHARACTERS.
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(*Jman*)
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Kakatte Koi!

I like fighting games more then FPS because camping is more fun in them and I'd rather not devote countless hours to perfect my skills at getting headshots and my ability to combat boredom while I sit around camping.
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Formerly Omni, Rosa, Terra, Serra, Captain Star Falco, Minamimoto
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Crysta
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wat

Quote:
 
No.  You may think that, but it's definitely wrong.  Unless you've played people that are nearly at the top of the country in their respective game, then you didn't play anyone better than me.


Yeah, I've played you both, and I can definitely say he's more impressive. I haven't seen him play Smash, though, so I can't really compare his expertise against yours in that game.

But unless you're a Melty Blood pro or something, he's definitely better than you on the overall sphere of fighting games. I just never got to know him well enough to ask what his ranking is lulz.
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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GODonPCP
 
I always give frying pans to female survivors in Dead Rising. It's really the only thing I'm confident they know how to use.
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