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Shooters v. Fighters
Topic Started: Aug 11 2008, 06:03 PM (479 Views)
Reaver
Troll

Inui
 
Dude, that's not technical skill. That's having the precision and focus to aim steadily and accurately.

Consider how fast a frame is. 1/60th of a second.
Wait, precision and focus isn't a technical skill? You don't get all day to aim, you get minimal time to aim and in do-or-die situations you need to be lining up less than 1% of the screen with less than 1% of the screen within milliseconds.

Inui
 
Defensive options in Guilty Gear:
-Blocking (high, low, aerial)
-Faultess Defense (uses tension and prevents chip damage, and allows the blocking of ground moves from the air)
-Burst (you can use this rarely and it allows you to escape a combo at any point)
-Dash (you can often just dash back, and some characters like Slayer can dash through you)
Defensive options for shooters:
-Cover (Taking cover in the environment to avoid shots)
-Running (in some maps you can outrun your opponent in a maze area and then lay in waiting)
-Fighting back (if you're being shot you might counter-attack to kill them and save yourself)
-Grenade (by throwing a grenade you force your opponent to halt or take massive damage, giving you ample time to maneuver)
-Dodging (with some weapons, you can physically dodge the shell because it moves so slow, i.e. the Rocket Launcher).

It's not like shooters lack depth in terms of options.

Oh, and do you want options for when you're opponent is respawning in an FPS?

-Run to a perceived spawn and rush them before they can establish themselves on the map.
-Choose a prime position on the map to best defend yourself and attack others.
-Get supplies.
-Defend a weapon spawn you think your opponent might try to seize.
-Defend the body.
-Support a teammate.
-Hold the same position.
-Regroup with teammates.

And that's basically just movement, if you want more mindgames:

-Hang on to an opponent's almost depleted weapon to prevent respawn
-Trade up your weapon and conceal it as your backup (I.E., running around with an SMG but having a sword ready if your opponent charges).
-Teabag your opponent (trolling, causing your opponent to many times get more aggressive and play into your traps easier).

And for games like Counter Strike, where you can't respawn, merely thinking of positions to hold outweights MANY of the mindgames you've listed because you need to guess how your opponent is going to move and if you're wrong find a way to recover before the objective is completed. Also, in the case of counter strike, you need to predict how your opponents will react the next round so you can optimize your situation. For example, if you know the Terrorists are going to flashbang rush the Market on Italy you might lay in wait before the market or rush back route and come behind the market or run through the apartments and hold the house or even plan a flashbang rush of the market and turn it into an all out slaughter.


Shooters clearly lack all sorts of headgames and mindgames and thus are completely inferior to fighters. :NomNomNom:
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Inui
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Power of Flower

save yourself)
-Grenade (by throwing a grenade you force your opponent to halt or take massive damage, giving you ample time to maneuver)
-Dodging (with some weapons, you can physically dodge the shell because it moves so slow, i.e. the Rocket Launcher).

It's not like shooters lack depth in terms of options.[/quote]

Um... If you honestly consider those "defensive options" to be more in-depth than the stuff I listed for Slayer, then you should stop debating this and leave it to Ken.

Quote:
 
Oh, and do you want options for when you're opponent is respawning in an FPS?

-Run to a perceived spawn and rush them before they can establish themselves on the map.
-Choose a prime position on the map to best defend yourself and attack others.
-Get supplies.
-Defend a weapon spawn you think your opponent might try to seize.
-Defend the body.
-Support a teammate.
-Hold the same position.
-Regroup with teammates.

And that's basically just movement, if you want more mindgames:

-Hang on to an opponent's almost depleted weapon to prevent respawn
-Trade up your weapon and conceal it as your backup (I.E., running around with an SMG but having a sword ready if your opponent charges).
-Teabag your opponent (trolling, causing your opponent to many times get more aggressive and play into your traps easier).


Some of those options you listed are redundant.

Also, the options for oki I listed were only for Slayer. That's not even counting all of the options involving other characters.

Quote:
 
And for games like Counter Strike, where you can't respawn, merely thinking of positions to hold outweights MANY of the mindgames you've listed because you need to guess how your opponent is going to move and if you're wrong find a way to recover before the objective is completed.


If you don't think fighting games involve immense amounts of guessing, chasing, and predicting, then you have absolutely no place in this debate. Sorry.

I'd go into a lot more detail if I didn't have to go right now.
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Reaver
Troll

Inui
 
Um... If you honestly consider those "defensive options" to be more in-depth than the stuff I listed for Slayer, then you should stop debating this and leave it to Ken.
Um... If you honestly consider this "a counter" to the stuff I posted for shooters, then you should stop debating this and leave it to logic.

Inui
 
Also, the options for oki I listed were only for Slayer. That's not even counting all of the options involving other characters.
And it balances out, considering depending on your opponent you lose most of those options and gain an entirely new set of options. If I change the weapon on my opponent I lose some options and gain entirely new options as to how I should approach, how I should expect them to act, how I might trick them, how I might surprise them, etc. Hell, I might even disregard my opponent throwing Grenades pending on the weapon (see: sword, gravity hammer).

Inui
 
If you don't think fighting games involve immense amounts of guessing, chasing, and predicting, then you have absolutely no place in this debate. Sorry.
Oh, they do, but mistakes are much more easily corrected in the fighter. If you choose the wrong path in a shooter you're pretty much dead (see: Counter Strike). If you make a false move in a fighting game you have time to react and make up for it.
Neon,June 8 2005
07:34 PM
@Reaver: Me grammer is better than ur post count newbie.

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Linoud
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Knight of Seven

Lucas, I did say I'll conceed that first part, did I not? That was just me randomly saying something before actually sitting down to type the rest of my post.

As for your combos, they do require skill and precision, but you also have to conceed the fact that it requires just as much, if not more, skill and precision to properly use a sniper rifle against an enemy with a weapon such as a BR, which is the bane of snipers in Halo. Fighters do take alot of skill, but I feel shooters require more skill in areas and have more areas skill is required in. There's more to master in shooting games with the constant updates and gametypes or rulesettings. For instance, H3 normal slayer is completely different to MLG Slayer. BR's do more damage and require less shots to the head than in normal slayer.

You have to have a high degree of precision and aiming in a shooter to pull off headshots with a sniper exactly when you need to, on an enemy thats strafing and moving in and out of cover. I'll conceed that it takes skill to hammer in a combo precisely but I think it takes more precision and aiming to get an enemy with shots if they're actually smart and use the terrain/stafing to their advantage.
And just for the record, I like both fighters and shooters, but I've always loved FPS games since I was about nine, but yeah there is a slight degree of me being biast towards shooters, but yours is just as biast to fighters. :NomNomNom:

What Reaver said about the crosshair is quite true. And dodging rocket shells could be some form of defense but that's not really reliable. Most people wait for you to land if your jumping.

Fighting games are all dependant on tiers, Lucas. There's more likely to be broken characters and moves that can rape the rest of the characters in an FPS game than there is a weapon that rapes all others, because every weapon has it's weakness. Even Rockets/Sword in Halo. Rockets suck for long range, and very close range they're suicidal. Sword sucks for any range, and is only dominant with regenerators/bubbleshields, and even then it's dependant on how many enemies there are and what weapons they're utilizing. If they're using plasma rifles or smgs, your already dead, and thats just if they're wielding one. Snipers have awful mid-range combat prowess, but they CAN be alright up close. However, FPS games rely more on the weapons and positions you have. There's way more options in an FPS game to be utilized. You can camp as a defense option. Reaver used a good point in camping on CS_Italy against me when I argued about camping with him. I'll let him bring that up himself.

FPS games have much more balance and because of that, you NEED to be more skilled than your opponent and get into their head.

Mindgames are just as important in an FPS game. If you get inside the head of your opponent, beat him down a few times, teabag him, or start just predicting his moves accurately, you really do just annihalate them.

FPS games are harder to kill your opponents in too. They're far more elusive than in a fighter where you can always see your enemy. You don't know where your enemy is all the time in an FPS. You have to rely on knowledge of spawns, use your radar properly with your audio and visual. Audio is a big factor in most FPS games. CS for example, you can hear your enemies walking and running, giving away their locations. You don't even have a radar in CS iirc, so you have to rely on sight and hearing. In a fighter, you can always see your opponent on the screen to react to them. Most of the time, you either get the jump on your enemies, or your enemies get the jump on you in an FPS.

I'll agree with Reavers defensive options. You simply have to be skilled at strafing and utilize the map to survive in a FPS game.

Lucas: We're not even bringing CTF, Bomb or Hostage games into this fully yet. The amount of teamwork required for those is unbelievable. Communication/Teamwork/Aim/Stealth/Precision are all a must to win. If you don't work as a team most of the time, you've already lost.

In FPS games: Mistakes are usually fatal. You'll get away the odd time due to your opponent slipping up but, thats if your extremely lucky. If you screw up a grenade or start missing, your done for.

Defensive options, Lucas. Grenades and backing away. If you focus on pursuing an enemy and chase them beyond a corner, you'll die usually due to an enemy respawning or them just whipping out a shotgun/mauler/grenade + br shot to the head.
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Tiaro
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BOOM! Headshot. :3

Lelouch
Aug 15 2008, 06:37 PM
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Lelouch
Aug 15 2008, 05:30 PM
I've beaten players far more skilled than I in fighters just by reacting. Sometimes consistently. And they wanted to murder me.

I am the only good player you have ever played, and I crushed you easily. You can't count beating randoms.


Not talking about Smash only.

And when you include all the Street Fighters, Bloody Roars, Tekkens, Soul Calibers... you actually aren't the most impressive person I've played. :NomNomNom: But I didn't beat them either.

I beat Sojamania in Marvel vs. Capcom 2 which meanz I'm pr0.

In general, I still say shooters > fighters in terms of difficulty. For the average person. I know because I'm average. :NomNomNom:

I'm not surprised you play Bloody Roar. :NomNomNom:

Shooters are harder than Fighters for me. My aim with a gun in general sucks. XD

It's much easier to hit someone in, say, Smash, or SC4, or Bloody Roar.
Brawl code: 1118-0273-4847
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Admin
There is a light that never goes out...

I think we should factor in all competitive video games into this arguement so I can have some fun too. :(

RTS games require a much greater amount of skill to play than FPS or Fighting games. It requires all the precision, and coodination of an FPS, and the incredible technical skill of a fighter, and a greater understanding of strategy than either.
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Linoud
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Knight of Seven

Nah. Strategy is important in all of the games, moreso in FPS games than fighters, and most likely more in RTS games.

However, FPS games still requires tactics, strats and various other styles of gameplay for someone to be truely good at them. They fall into the mindgame category.

RTS games dont require as much precision as an FPS game, just look at Reavers crosshair arguement. RTS games also don't have the same levels of teamwork and communication as FPS games. It does however, require tactics and strats and build orders, and what unit types and stuff like that and how fast you can defend/attack/obtain resources.
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There is a light that never goes out...

Quote:
 
However, FPS games still requires tactics, strats and various other styles of gameplay for someone to be truely good at them. They fall into the mindgame category.

I've played enough fighting games and FPS to understand that they require strategy and tactics.

However, by the nature of RTS, strategy is more important than the both of them. I'll mainly be using Starcraft as an example, because you can find RTS games that suck on a competitive level (like C&C). There are many different builds and such to use in a game of Starcraft, from a greedy style, to safe, to highly aggressive. And then there are different variations in those styles. Scouting is key, as for example if you are Zerg, and go 3hatch before pool, and your oppenent is going double proxy gate, your lack of scouting just earned you an automatic loss. Its about reading your opponent initially making an educated guess as to what he might do, and go from there. Once you finally get your scout it, its all adapting to what you see/think hes doing.

Quote:
 
RTS games dont require as much precision as an FPS game, just look at Reavers crosshair arguement. RTS games also don't have the same levels of teamwork and communication as FPS games. It does however, require tactics and strats and build orders, and what unit types and stuff like that and how fast you can defend/attack/obtain resources.

I agree that RTS games require alot more teamwork. However, I think coordination is much more difficult in an RTS game in a 2v2 than a FPS. Why? Simply because a game like Starcraft doesn't have voice chat. If you want to tell your partner to do something, you gotta type it in. Spending time typing lowers your level of multitask, which hurts your game. Or you could just ping some part of the minimap, and hope your partner gets the idea.

And although I suppose you are right that FPS requires more precision, I think being precise with your mouse is something you underestimate in RTS. In a battle, you have many different units. Different units have different purposes in battles. For example, Vultures suck vs Dragoons, but are good vs Zealots. And tanks are good vs Dragoons, and bad vs zealots. In a fight, especially early on, you would have to maneuver your individual units as much as you possibly can to get the most out of them in a single battle. Micro, basically. This is especially important in WC3, as all that game is, is micro.
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cool story bro


From my limited StarCraft experience, I can safely say that it's much harder than the other two genres. The incredible about of micro and macro that comes into play, the mindgames, understanding your match up, etc etc, it's simply on a higher level than anything else I've ever seen. There is a reason SC is the most competitive game of all time.
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Admin
There is a light that never goes out...

Indeed, at the highest levels, players are inputing anywhere from 300 to 500 actions per minute. These actions include developing their base, building their army, harassing your opponent, engaging your opponent, and all the while trying to out think them and stay one step ahead.
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cool story bro


BTW, somewhat off topic, but I plan on getting back into SC sometime after school starts, so I plan to learn more. :)
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Admin
There is a light that never goes out...

Do you think you understand enough of the basics, to be able to watch/follow a first person video of someone playing, so you can learn what you need to improve on?
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Linoud
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Knight of Seven

Quote:
 
I agree that RTS games require alot more teamwork. However, I think coordination is much more difficult in an RTS game in a 2v2 than a FPS. Why? Simply because a game like Starcraft doesn't have voice chat. If you want to tell your partner to do something, you gotta type it in. Spending time typing lowers your level of multitask, which hurts your game. Or you could just ping some part of the minimap, and hope your partner gets the idea.


You mean FPS games in the RTS part I bolded, right? Co-ordination isn't as difficult but teamwork is present in RTS games too, Sent, I'm not saying communication isn't there either but you could use a VC program like TS or Ventrillo to solve the typing problem and up the communication game a good deal, but it's still not going to be on the communication or teamwork level that an FPS game has, but it'll suffice to make it largely better than a Fighter for those two particular points.

FPS games require more precision for aiming and all that. In general I find most types of games fun, but I hate racing games usually and most sports games. I just think there's more skills to master in FPS games than any other game genre. And Sentenal, as for tactics and management, SC doesn't instantly beat all FPS games. I'll point you to Natural Selection and it's uniqueness. I'll even go as far as to point to Team Fortress and building of sentrys and such but, in NS there is far more strategy and tactics involved.

You HAVE played NS, right?

Edit: Tempted to play SC moar now too. Gah.
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cool story bro


Sentenal
Aug 15 2008, 09:51 PM
Do you think you understand enough of the basics, to be able to watch/follow a first person video of someone playing, so you can learn what you need to improve on?

I watched some Korean match but I got bored after 5 minutes, not sure why though. I'm actually going to play campaign first so I can really get used to the UI and all the build orders. :NomNomNom:
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Admin
There is a light that never goes out...

heh, yeah, I meant FPS in the bolded part.

With 2v2 in Starcraft, in Korea at least, they don't get to use ventrilo or something like that. I think they are forced to make use of pinging the minimap. However, this isn't something I know for a fact. I never see them talking to each other during broadcasted matches, at least.

Yes, I've played Natural Selection. I sucked at that game, and couldn't really get into, but its a well made game.

FPS games do require tactics and such, but I don't really see how tactics could be greater in an FPS than an RTS. Even in NS, a FPS that does incorporate some RTS features, much of the time games aren't decided by the RTSish leader in those games, but rather the individual skill of the players you are controlling.

Often battles in Starcraft could come down to two armies, of nearly 100 units each, battling it out. Flanking, surrounding, focus firing, using your spells efficiently, all by the same person, just brings the difficulty above that of an RTS. That is alot to do, and requires alot of multitasking ability and skill. And compared to one of the premiere FPS games like CS or Halo (as NS is kinda cult), I'd say tactics matter much more than in those two games.

I'll give an example of tactics in Starcraft. The Terran in this video, had a huge army of tanks, that would normally dominate any Protoss ground army. He was moving out to secure his victory. And then with perfect execution, Jangbi rushed in and crushed the army, turning the tables and eventually winning the game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3IbwjeCx6U

edit@phil: I'd recommend not watching any Flash matchs. Flash is such a boring player, and seeing as how he is/was Feez and PZ's favorite player, thats who they probably linked you to :(
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