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| Super Street Fighter IV; Thus begins the next generation of "rebalances" | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 6 2010, 09:42 PM (2,623 Views) | |
| Kalamadorel | Mar 7 2010, 06:07 AM Post #16 |
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Your friendly neighbourhood spiderman.
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I much prefered BB to SF4 just because I felt the anim cancelling was a lot smoother, I don't know what it was but I was able to do shit so much easier in BB as compared to SF. I don't know if I'll get SSF4 though, I kind of enjoyed SF4 but I was only good enough to play online when my jump cancels worked (about half the time). |
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| AdamNW | Mar 7 2010, 12:34 PM Post #17 |
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Needs moar Sety
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BB is just as balanced as SF4 actually. |
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| Inui | Mar 7 2010, 03:03 PM Post #18 |
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Power of Flower
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Then you don't know shit about fighting games and need an education. Both Melee and Brawl are plagued with 70/30's and worse in many areas, while those other games having something worse than 60/40 is a rare thing. Do you know what 60/40 is? It's a clear advantage, yet perfectly winnable for the one at a disadvantage. Its...Sheik vs Marth in Melee, I suppose. You saw Marth players beating Sheik players often enough. It's also the same thing as Fox vs Peach, Falcon vs Peach, Fox vs Jigglypuff, and many others. When you look at a match-up chart even for this game, it's got 70/30's in there due to stuff like Seth/Dhalsim vs Zangief and Sagat vs anything bad...like Sakura. I even think Dhalsim vs Zangief is listed as 80/20 these days. MB, GG, and BB don't really have that shit. Iron Tager in BB had two 70/30's in the previous version, but that was it, and he doesn't anymore. The other games can have top of top vs bottom of bottom and it can be 60/40. That's pretty balanced. For instance, Litchi in BB has nothing worse than 45/55 and wins nothing by more than 60/40. That is common in those three games. |
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| sephiroth667 | Mar 7 2010, 07:08 PM Post #19 |
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Nostalgia
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Firstly, BB is not a console game persay. It is an arcade fighter and is played on arcade whenever it can be. Secondly, a 6-4 matchup does NOT constitute a hard counter. It's a matchup, like Lucas said, where one character has an advantage through things which usually constitute range or survivability, but can still lose the match if they are outplayed, if only slightly. If you were to have a game where there were a number of matchups closer in the 45-55/50-50 range, every character would have to be so similar it would be incredibly boring to play.
I pray to God you are joking lol. SF4 is one of the most imbalanced pieces of garbage I've had to misfortune to lay eyes on, where BB is one of the most balanced games I've played. I hope they fix the MAJOR balance issues in SF4 with this new release. If they do, I might enjoy playing it a bit more. |
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| Kalamadorel | Mar 7 2010, 10:33 PM Post #20 |
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Your friendly neighbourhood spiderman.
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I dunno about BB being that balanced, I mean last time I checked she had all positive matchups. |
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| Admin | Mar 7 2010, 10:38 PM Post #21 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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70-30 is should be an unplayable imbalance. 60-40 is a huge imbalance as well. The fact that you can sit here and argue the fact that 60-40 isn't a huge imbalance, makes me LOL at console gaming. Allow me to illustrate balance, in a truely balanced competitive gaming environment: Destination ![]() This is probably one of the most popular maps of all time in Starcraft. Its in the top 5 easily. However, imbalances do exist. Terran vs Zerg, stats: 148-137 (51.9% win rate for Terran). So roughly 52%. Considered more or less balanced. Zerg vs Protoss: 170-128 (57% win rate for Zerg). Imbalanced matchup here. Protoss cringe when they have to play a Zerg on the map. Its SORTA winnable, but its going to be really gay. If it was 60%, there would be no fucking way this map would have stayed in use as long as it did. Protoss vs Terran: 181-146 (55.4% win rate for Protoss). There is a slight imbalance in the map. Protoss is favored, but it isn't impossible for the Terran. Destination is consider to be a fairly balanced map, considering the stats above. Heartbreak Ridge ![]() TvZ: 68-72 (48.6%). Mostly balanced. ZvP: 98-75 (56.6%). Slightly Zerg favored, still playable. PvT: 91-63 (59.1%). Terran graveyard. This imbalance is the reason they remade the map after 2 seasons (New Heartbreak Ridge). Fighting Spirit ![]() TvZ: 70-53 (56.9%). Slightly Terran favored. ZvP: 60-59 (50.4%). Balanced. PvT: 55-53 (50.9%). Balanced. See a trend? 55~ is considered imbalanced, but playable. 60~ or more are considered graveyards. This is why I laugh at the imbalances in Console games, particularly fighting games. You can have a match be 60-40, and not care. Why? Because your game is so fucking imbalanced all you can do is live with it, and deal with it. You don't have a choice. |
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| Inui | Mar 7 2010, 10:44 PM Post #22 |
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Power of Flower
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I don't give a dick about Starcraft. This topic is about a fighting game, not an RTS. You know shit about Melee, right? Okay then. Sheik vs Marth is considered 60/40. Ken dropped sets to only three Sheiks in his entire career, and only once or twice each. Azen never lost to Sheik, including KoreanDJ's in his prime as the best one on Earth. I've lost with my Sheik back when I was really good to Mew2King, NEO, Husband, and other good Marth players. Peach loses to Marth, Fox, and Captain 40/60. Armada's Peach consistently beats Mew2King's Marth and Fox and every other player here except for Mango. He lost a set to one Captain Falcon here, Silent Specter, but beats all the others, including Scar and Hax. Jigglypuff loses to Fox 40/60. No Fox can beat Hungrybox and Mango's Jigglypuffs. Need I go on? Nobody cares about 60/40 at higher levels. BB, GG, and MB are balanced compared to most fighting games. |
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| Kalamadorel | Mar 7 2010, 10:44 PM Post #23 |
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Your friendly neighbourhood spiderman.
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I'd say that they're more different because they are different genres than because they are on PC vs Console but that's just me.
Edited by Kalamadorel, Mar 7 2010, 10:45 PM.
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| Admin | Mar 7 2010, 10:45 PM Post #24 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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The main difference between them is that its on a PC, therefore its able to be patched. Starcraft before 1.07 was an imbalanced piece of trash. |
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| Kalamadorel | Mar 7 2010, 10:53 PM Post #25 |
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Your friendly neighbourhood spiderman.
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You can still patch console games though, I'm just saying that I don't see much of a difference in imbalance just because it's on console. If Fighting games or RTS games were good on the opposite platform I would have more to say about it but at this point I can't think of much that has definable matchups and is competitive on both platforms. As a side note one reason I think that the matchups are so more widespread in BB/SF4/etc. is because of the number of characters you have to play as. Whereas in starcraft you only have 3 teams the matchups would have to be much closer. Maybe I'm way off with this though, I haven't been competitive in a long time. |
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| Inui | Mar 7 2010, 10:56 PM Post #26 |
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Power of Flower
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Sentenal is trying to compare an RTS on PC to fighting games on consoles and arcades. That's the first flaw. There's too much real tournament evidence suggesting that 60/40 isn't a big deal in high level play at all. |
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| Admin | Mar 7 2010, 11:03 PM Post #27 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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This got turned into a topic about balance in video games. 60-40 is a horrible imbalance. You don't care about the imbalance because there is nothing you can do about it, because of lack of patching. The fact that you can ignore such an imbalance makes me LOL@console gaming. You saying "LOL TOURNAMENT EVIDENCE, KEN BEAT SHIEKS" means nothing in this discussion. Well, I take that back, it does mean a little bit. It means that the matchup is not 100-0. Which no one was even talking about. BB/GG/MB might be "balanced" compared to other fighting games, but that just means they are "balanced" in comparision to things that are even more imbalanced than it is. @Kala: Since when have people patched console games? Do they do that for systems like the 360 and stuff now? I honestly don't know. Do they actually release balance patches? |
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| Kalamadorel | Mar 7 2010, 11:08 PM Post #28 |
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Your friendly neighbourhood spiderman.
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Yeah the 360 gets balance patches, I don't know about the Wii though since I've never owned one. I don't know how great the balance patches are since I only started playing BB recently (Fuck EU releases), but if Tager was as good as Inui says he was then they fucked his shit up. |
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| Admin | Mar 7 2010, 11:09 PM Post #29 |
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There is a light that never goes out...
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If they are releasing balance patches, that is very good news for those games, and a step in the right direction. |
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| Kalamadorel | Mar 7 2010, 11:12 PM Post #30 |
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Your friendly neighbourhood spiderman.
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It's definitely getting better but I still wouldn't say they're as balanced as starcraft, I wouldn't say they're quite as unbalanced as you say either though. Balancing games is difficult fucking work though, I mean with the metagame constantly changing you have to stay on top of all the new trends and stuff. Edited by Kalamadorel, Mar 7 2010, 11:13 PM.
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