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Polish cases
Topic Started: 5 Oct 2013, 12:17 (1,203 Views)
Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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I have one question.
On Table E there in written that Dr. Alexander Imich was born in "Poland (Russian Empire)"

Does it is obligatory for the "Russian Empire" to be written there as well?
Dr Alexander Imich was born in Częstochowa, a city that lies in the core of today's Poland.
The city is important in Polish tradition and history.

It never actually belonged to Russian Empire. In 1903 at the time, when Dr. Imich was born,
Poland was occupied and administered by Russian Empire.
But writing "Russian Empire" in birthplace of Dr. Imich can make the reader think that Dr. Imich was of Polish-Russian nationality, which is obviously wrong.

Dr. Alexander Imich is rather of Polish-Jewish nationality. His birthplace is currently in Poland and had been being in Poland long before Russian Empire took away Polish independence.

Therefore I have a plea to write as birthplace just "Poland".
What would you say?
GRG Administrative Assistant for Case Validation Summaries (from Aug. 15, 2015)
GRG Correspondent for Poland (from Sept. 13, 2013)
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Stefan Jamin
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Congress Poland (Królestwo Polskie) wasn't an indipendent nation but since 1867 full part of the Russian Empire; it had some differences, but you can also find in the polish wiki, that it wasn't autonom anymore: "Później następowało stopniowe ograniczanie autonomii Królestwa Polskiego, zwłaszcza po stłumieniu powstania listopadowego w roku 1831 i powstania styczniowego w 1864 roku aż do formalnego zniesienia autonomii polityczno-administracyjnej tego terytorium w 1867 roku."

And we work with historical terms.
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Even if just politically, in this period of time, Poland was occupied by the Russian Empire, the mertics, though written in Russian cyrillic, still contained Polish characters in the spelling of Polish names.
Yes. It was since 1867/68 when the Russian cyrillic was introduced in Polish metrics, after the November Uprising (1830-31) and January Uprising (1863-1864).

Historically, Częstochowa was in Poland's borders since the land's baptism in 966 and remained in independent Poland until the Three Partitions. Since 1918 it was again in fully independent Poland and it is now in current borders of Poland.
GRG Administrative Assistant for Case Validation Summaries (from Aug. 15, 2015)
GRG Correspondent for Poland (from Sept. 13, 2013)
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Stefan Jamin
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It's like the problem of Alcase-Lorraine. Till the 19. century: Until 1870 France, 1871-1919 Germay, France, 2. WW Germany, France... I live in a region which has a long german tradition but we where part of France for some years - persons born during 1801/03-1815 where born in France, not germany, btw...
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Fannie Buten (1899-2010), oldest Jewish person at her times, was born in village Wielkie Oczy (pop. 800), which lies in today's borders of Poland, in gmina Wielkie Oczy, powiat Lubaczów, Voivodeship Subcarpathia.

Therefore my plea:
Could you please make a correction in her birthplace from "Austria-Hungary" to "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)" in Table "Deaths for 2010"?
Thank you.
GRG Administrative Assistant for Case Validation Summaries (from Aug. 15, 2015)
GRG Correspondent for Poland (from Sept. 13, 2013)
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Robert D. Young
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Greetings,

Place-of-birth and political boundary changes over time is an issue that I don't feel can please everyone. The purpose of using the (Russian Empire) is to offer an alternate interpretation and/or to indicate that a foreign ruler may have been in control: for example, "Cape Verde (Portugal).

Also, please: age verification should NOT be about nationalism. In fact, that people live to 110 just about everywhere there's a sufficient sample size helps to temper, if not disprove, the misconception of "exceptionalism". No, we're NOT all different: we all have the same biological time clocks. While there's some modulation based on lifestyle, culture, climate, environment, etc., it should be clear that there's not much difference when it comes to the actual rate of aging, other than the male/female dichotomy.
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Robert D. Young
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Stefan Jamin
10 Oct 2013, 20:46
It's like the problem of Alcase-Lorraine. Till the 19. century: Until 1870 France, 1871-1919 Germay, France, 2. WW Germany, France... I live in a region which has a long german tradition but we where part of France for some years - persons born during 1801/03-1815 where born in France, not germany, btw...
France and Germany were ONE NATION under Charlemagne. After his death, the empire was divided among his sons: one got Germany; one got Italy; one got France.

Alsace, in particular, changed hands NINE TIMES in 1,000 years between French and German control. And even though it's been officially French since WWII ended, with a heavy German investment in Strasbourg, there's a joke that the Germans have recaptured the area economically.

But none of this should be our focus when it comes to supercentenarians.
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Senior Claims Researcher, Gerontology Research Group (from June 1999-2012, 2014).
Senior Database Administrator, Gerontology Research Group (from Dec 2012)
Director, GRG Supercentenarian Research and Database Division (from Feb 12 2015)
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Robert D. Young
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
16 Oct 2013, 12:05
Fannie Buten (1899-2010), oldest Jewish person at her times, was born in village Wielkie Oczy (pop. 800), which lies in today's borders of Poland, in gmina Wielkie Oczy, powiat Lubaczów, Voivodeship Subcarpathia.

Therefore my plea:
Could you please make a correction in her birthplace from "Austria-Hungary" to "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)" in Table "Deaths for 2010"?
Thank you.
That's a slightly different issue: with Dr. Imich, we are talking about the land in 1903: a semi-autonomous nation within a larger empire. "Poland (Russian Empire)" is like saying "Algeria (French Empire)". That's an issue of independence.

But with Fannie Buten, the issue is one of changing boundaries: "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)". It's more like the Alsace issue. Nonetheless, we can change that on the GRG. I'll double-check what records we have, but please at least send an e-mail with a citation of the issue to ryoung122@yahoo.com
Senior Consultant for Gerontology, Guinness World Records (from Nov 23 2005)
Senior Claims Researcher, Gerontology Research Group (from June 1999-2012, 2014).
Senior Database Administrator, Gerontology Research Group (from Dec 2012)
Director, GRG Supercentenarian Research and Database Division (from Feb 12 2015)
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Robert D. Young
16 Oct 2013, 20:51
Greetings,

Place-of-birth and political boundary changes over time is an issue that I don't feel can please everyone. The purpose of using the (Russian Empire) is to offer an alternate interpretation and/or to indicate that a foreign ruler may have been in control: for example, "Cape Verde (Portugal).

Also, please: age verification should NOT be about nationalism. In fact, that people live to 110 just about everywhere there's a sufficient sample size helps to temper, if not disprove, the misconception of "exceptionalism". No, we're NOT all different: we all have the same biological time clocks. While there's some modulation based on lifestyle, culture, climate, environment, etc., it should be clear that there's not much difference when it comes to the actual rate of aging, other than the male/female dichotomy.
I agree with you Mr. Young.
The reason, why I mention all the details is that I believe it's true history, I'm dealing with.
I always wish to consider a supercentenarian in whole.
The historical background cannot be skipped.
It may have the effect on one's age, though still cannot be compared with the medical, environmental or lifestyle factor that causes longevity.
GRG Administrative Assistant for Case Validation Summaries (from Aug. 15, 2015)
GRG Correspondent for Poland (from Sept. 13, 2013)
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Robert D. Young
16 Oct 2013, 20:59
Waclaw Jan Kroczek
16 Oct 2013, 12:05
Fannie Buten (1899-2010), oldest Jewish person at her times, was born in village Wielkie Oczy (pop. 800), which lies in today's borders of Poland, in gmina Wielkie Oczy, powiat Lubaczów, Voivodeship Subcarpathia.

Therefore my plea:
Could you please make a correction in her birthplace from "Austria-Hungary" to "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)" in Table "Deaths for 2010"?
Thank you.
That's a slightly different issue: with Dr. Imich, we are talking about the land in 1903: a semi-autonomous nation within a larger empire. "Poland (Russian Empire)" is like saying "Algeria (French Empire)". That's an issue of independence.

But with Fannie Buten, the issue is one of changing boundaries: "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)". It's more like the Alsace issue. Nonetheless, we can change that on the GRG. I'll double-check what records we have, but please at least send an e-mail with a citation of the issue to ryoung122@yahoo.com
All right, may it be as it is now with birthplace of Dr. Imich.
Thank you for empathising with the idea of refinement of Ms. Fannie Buten's birthplace.
Her home village lies close to border with Ukraine but still in Poland, in Subcarpathia.

GRG Administrative Assistant for Case Validation Summaries (from Aug. 15, 2015)
GRG Correspondent for Poland (from Sept. 13, 2013)
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Mark E. Muir
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GRG Forum Co-Founder

Waclaw Jan Kroczek
17 Oct 2013, 16:39
Robert D. Young
16 Oct 2013, 20:59
Waclaw Jan Kroczek
16 Oct 2013, 12:05
Fannie Buten (1899-2010), oldest Jewish person at her times, was born in village Wielkie Oczy (pop. 800), which lies in today's borders of Poland, in gmina Wielkie Oczy, powiat Lubaczów, Voivodeship Subcarpathia.

Therefore my plea:
Could you please make a correction in her birthplace from "Austria-Hungary" to "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)" in Table "Deaths for 2010"?
Thank you.
That's a slightly different issue: with Dr. Imich, we are talking about the land in 1903: a semi-autonomous nation within a larger empire. "Poland (Russian Empire)" is like saying "Algeria (French Empire)". That's an issue of independence.

But with Fannie Buten, the issue is one of changing boundaries: "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)". It's more like the Alsace issue. Nonetheless, we can change that on the GRG. I'll double-check what records we have, but please at least send an e-mail with a citation of the issue to ryoung122@yahoo.com
All right, may it be as it is now with birthplace of Dr. Imich.
Thank you for empathising with the idea of refinement of Ms. Fannie Buten's birthplace.
Her home village lies close to border with Ukraine but still in Poland, in Subcarpathia.

This is a good discussion. So it looks like it's two, actually maybe three, different issues:

1.) One "nation" under a much-larger empire
2.) Change of boundaries
3.) one country going through different governments and administration (the period being named today with new terms about that era)

With #2, it's clear that we should say the historical country at the time of birth and say the current country in parenthesis like the format below:

OldCountry (now NewCountry)

As for #1, perhaps there are still confusion on this one. There were a good number of "Empires" at the turn of the 20th Century (our focus period), if you will --

Russian Empire (1721-1917)
German Empire (1871-1918)
Austro-Hungarian Empire (better known simply as "Austria-Hungary") (1867-1918)

Personally, it's my opinion that we should say this format:

NameofEmpire (now Country)

This is even if we are talking about the birth location being in the same country as the empire (i.e. a town that was in German Empire and still is in today's Germany).

Examples:

German Empire (Germany)
German Empire (now Poland)
Russian Empire (now Lithuania)


The 3rd issue is about countries that went through different governments/administrations:

Congress Poland (1815-1867)
Second French Empire (1852-1870)
French Third Republic (1870-1940)

This is also a challenge. If someone was born inside the lands of Congress Poland in, say randomly the 1866 year, do we say Congress Poland or simply today's country? I think we have to do the former, although we don't have any real SC cases like that, do we? In my opinion, saying "Poland" isn't consistent with the focus on the birth *year and location* of the person in question.

But for some situations, like France, their boundaries did not "dramatically change", so do we just say "France" for all of those era's for simplicity's sake? Or is it safe to do that because France called itself "France" in 1866 anyway?

About Alsace:

For Alsace, we would say either:

Alsace (German Empire) for those born between 1871-1918
Alsace (France) for those born before 1871 or after 1918 to 1940

Rationale: the emphasis is where, in this case, Alsace. Then the parenthesis just helps to clarify which period it is.

That's how I see it -- we all have different preferences, eh? :)

* MEM
Mark E. Muir
Edited by Mark E. Muir, 18 Oct 2013, 16:06.
Gerontology Research Group (GRG) Correspondent, North America, (2011 - present) and Senior Administrator (2014 - present)
Co-Founder of GRG Supercentenarian Forum (12-Dec-2011 to present)
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Dear GRG,
There are 3 things that must be corrected about Mr. Pajaczkowski-Dydynski.

1. The birthplace:
It should be "Poland (now Ukraine)".
Mr. Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński was of Polish nationality.
He was a Polish noble man.
He was neither Russian nor Ukrainian. There did not even existed Ukraine in 1894.
And there definitely should not be written Russian Empire, because in Lwów, where Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński was born there was never part of such state.
He was born in Poland! Those were Polish lands!
Lwów was the Polish city inhabited by Polish majority.
GRG, please acknowlegde the fact.
Before the three empires took by force Polish independence, those lands belonged to Poland for hundred of years!
It would be dishonour for Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński not to write the fact he was born in Poland.

This is not about nationalism.
You must differ nationality from nationalism.
Nationalism is something bad, that causes only war. I as Polish man and passionate of supercenenarians am far away from approving of nationalism, which caused the war that made so much suffering to people. That is why I vote for pro-european integration party.
Nationality, on the other hand, is the bond they share with their country, the language they speak.
It is something of great value in Poland, because of its hard history. The true identity.
And Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński's biography is the best example how important factor it is.
He was of Polish nobility and fought for Poland's freedom and independence.
Thanks to his attitude and those like him, I can now live, study and work in peaceful, independent, prospering country.

By listing Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński in GRG lists we make a great distinction and commemoration of his person.
For all the world and future generations to know about Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński.
I know my friends in Poland were dreaming for such commemoration for a long time.
I'm very very grateful to you for the fact. That is could finally became reality.

Nevertheless, currently the place where Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński was born is not Poland anymore, because in 1945, after the World War II and Jalta conference it was given to USSR and now there is Ukraine.

Therefore instead of "Ukraine (Russian Empire)" is should be "Poland (now Ukraine)"
Please acknowlegde the fact for the sake of Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński. I am sure he would be grateful of such credit if he could see it. Maybe he does...


2. The validators:
Why there is only me? I was not the only person who found and delievered the documents supporting the true age of Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński. The marriage certificate was ensured by Mr. Andrew Holmes, GRG-Great Britain Correspondent. He must be mentioned as validator too. The cooperation with him was for me the very first of the kind as GRG correspondent. And I can here citate of Antoine Demarais, the youngest GRG correspondent: "The cooperation between correspondents is something wonderful, don't you think?". That was the moment in which his concept became my concept too. It is the international cooperation. In this case between Poland and Great Britain. And working with Andrew on Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński's case was for me the great pleasure and honour.
Therefore my plea.


3. The name
Mr. Pajączkowski Dydyński was given two names at his baptism: Jerzy Kazimierz
That is why I please to mention them both. As Polish nobility, he always had his two names acknowledged. I know it is quite long name, but I remind French supercentenarian Mrs. Geneviève de Reviers de Mauny who was of nobility as well and also had quite a long name and she figures on the GRG list with her full name.
Thus I please to make the correction for: "Jerzy Kazimierz Pajaczkowski-Dydynski".

I'm kindly asking for your understanding.
Yours sincerely,

Wacław Jan Kroczek
GRG Administrative Assistant for Case Validation Summaries (from Aug. 15, 2015)
GRG Correspondent for Poland (from Sept. 13, 2013)
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Mark E. Muir
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GRG Forum Co-Founder

Remember I am not speaking for Robert, but I'm sure he will review here and make changes as needed.

About Mr. Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński:

1.) birth place: from what everything shows, it looks like we need to change to "Poland (now Ukraine)".

2.) Yes, Andrew Holmes should be a second validator for this case due to getting the marriage record.

3.) If "he always had his two names acknowledged", then yes we would have no problem making his name "Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński" regardless if it's long, that's fine.

We overlook some things, and make some mistakes. I did not notice those mistakes when I posted the new Table EE for Robert. We will fix them as we evaluate the details.

Cheers,

* MEM
Mark E. Muir
Gerontology Research Group (GRG) Correspondent, North America, (2011 - present) and Senior Administrator (2014 - present)
Co-Founder of GRG Supercentenarian Forum (12-Dec-2011 to present)
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Mark E. Muir
19 Oct 2013, 01:09
Remember I am not speaking for Robert, but I'm sure he will review here and make changes as needed.

About Mr. Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński:

1.) birth place: from what everything shows, it looks like we need to change to "Poland (now Ukraine)".

2.) Yes, Andrew Holmes should be a second validator for this case due to getting the marriage record.

3.) If "he always had his two names acknowledged", then yes we would have no problem making his name "Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński" regardless if it's long, that's fine.

We overlook some things, and make some mistakes. I did not notice those mistakes when I posted the new Table EE for Robert. We will fix them as we evaluate the details.

Cheers,

* MEM
Mark E. Muir
Thank you very much Mr. Muir.

There is one more question. About the place of death.
As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński did live in Edinburgh, Scotland for many years.
However, in his later years he came to live with his family in Cumbria, England and there he passed away, in Grange over Sands.
So we would probably need another correction:

place of death: not "Scotland (UK)" but "England (UK)"
GRG Administrative Assistant for Case Validation Summaries (from Aug. 15, 2015)
GRG Correspondent for Poland (from Sept. 13, 2013)
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Robert D. Young
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GRG Forum Co-Founder

Mark E. Muir
18 Oct 2013, 15:54
Waclaw Jan Kroczek
17 Oct 2013, 16:39
Robert D. Young
16 Oct 2013, 20:59
Waclaw Jan Kroczek
16 Oct 2013, 12:05
Fannie Buten (1899-2010), oldest Jewish person at her times, was born in village Wielkie Oczy (pop. 800), which lies in today's borders of Poland, in gmina Wielkie Oczy, powiat Lubaczów, Voivodeship Subcarpathia.

Therefore my plea:
Could you please make a correction in her birthplace from "Austria-Hungary" to "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)" in Table "Deaths for 2010"?
Thank you.
That's a slightly different issue: with Dr. Imich, we are talking about the land in 1903: a semi-autonomous nation within a larger empire. "Poland (Russian Empire)" is like saying "Algeria (French Empire)". That's an issue of independence.

But with Fannie Buten, the issue is one of changing boundaries: "Austria-Hungary (now Poland)". It's more like the Alsace issue. Nonetheless, we can change that on the GRG. I'll double-check what records we have, but please at least send an e-mail with a citation of the issue to ryoung122@yahoo.com
All right, may it be as it is now with birthplace of Dr. Imich.
Thank you for empathising with the idea of refinement of Ms. Fannie Buten's birthplace.
Her home village lies close to border with Ukraine but still in Poland, in Subcarpathia.

This is a good discussion. So it looks like it's two, actually maybe three, different issues:

1.) One "nation" under a much-larger empire
2.) Change of boundaries
3.) one country going through different governments and administration (the period being named today with new terms about that era)

With #2, it's clear that we should say the historical country at the time of birth and say the current country in parenthesis like the format below:

OldCountry (now NewCountry)

As for #1, perhaps there are still confusion on this one. There were a good number of "Empires" at the turn of the 20th Century (our focus period), if you will --

Russian Empire (1721-1917)
German Empire (1871-1918)
Austro-Hungarian Empire (better known simply as "Austria-Hungary") (1867-1918)

Personally, it's my opinion that we should say this format:

NameofEmpire (now Country)

This is even if we are talking about the birth location being in the same country as the empire (i.e. a town that was in German Empire and still is in today's Germany).

Examples:

German Empire (Germany)
German Empire (now Poland)
Russian Empire (now Lithuania)


The 3rd issue is about countries that went through different governments/administrations:

Congress Poland (1815-1867)
Second French Empire (1852-1870)
French Third Republic (1870-1940)

This is also a challenge. If someone was born inside the lands of Congress Poland in, say randomly the 1866 year, do we say Congress Poland or simply today's country? I think we have to do the former, although we don't have any real SC cases like that, do we? In my opinion, saying "Poland" isn't consistent with the focus on the birth *year and location* of the person in question.

But for some situations, like France, their boundaries did not "dramatically change", so do we just say "France" for all of those era's for simplicity's sake? Or is it safe to do that because France called itself "France" in 1866 anyway?

About Alsace:

For Alsace, we would say either:

Alsace (German Empire) for those born between 1871-1918
Alsace (France) for those born before 1871 or after 1918 to 1940

Rationale: the emphasis is where, in this case, Alsace. Then the parenthesis just helps to clarify which period it is.

That's how I see it -- we all have different preferences, eh? :)

* MEM
Mark E. Muir
Mark,

I want to minimize political issues as much as possible. Thus, I'd prefer "Poland" over "Congress Poland" and "Germany" over "German Empire". The only time I want to mention an empire is when a country that's free today was once part of a larger empire.

In truth, we have not been consistent: Ireland was part of the British Empire until 1921.

The main things I want to emphasize is:
1. The geographic place of birth
2. The territory as it was at the time of birth
3. The territory as it is now

We try to make that clear but be as simple as possible.

Also, while we want to have "long form" data with an explanation for the data files, when it comes to displaying someone in a list, the most-important issue to the viewer is to see a WORLDWIDE distribution, NOT get hung up on local issues.

In in case like Emile Fourcade, he was French and born in Algeria in 1884. In 1890, Algeria became "part of France" officially...but most viewers wouldn't make that connection. So, to so that he was born in "Algeria (France)" or "Algeria (French Empire)" works better. I do prefer the former, in part, because it's shorter and less political, instead emphasizing the geography...where he was actually born.
Senior Consultant for Gerontology, Guinness World Records (from Nov 23 2005)
Senior Claims Researcher, Gerontology Research Group (from June 1999-2012, 2014).
Senior Database Administrator, Gerontology Research Group (from Dec 2012)
Director, GRG Supercentenarian Research and Database Division (from Feb 12 2015)
Founder, World's Oldest People Group (from June 2002)
Co-Founder, GRG Supercentenarian Forum (from 2011)
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Robert D. Young
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
18 Oct 2013, 19:22
Dear GRG,
There are 3 things that must be corrected about Mr. Pajaczkowski-Dydynski.

1. The birthplace:
It should be "Poland (now Ukraine)".
Mr. Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński was of Polish nationality.
He was a Polish noble man.
He was neither Russian nor Ukrainian. There did not even existed Ukraine in 1894.
And there definitely should not be written Russian Empire, because in Lwów, where Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński was born there was never part of such state.
He was born in Poland! Those were Polish lands!
Lwów was the Polish city inhabited by Polish majority.
GRG, please acknowlegde the fact.
Before the three empires took by force Polish independence, those lands belonged to Poland for hundred of years!
It would be dishonour for Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński not to write the fact he was born in Poland.

This is not about nationalism.
You must differ nationality from nationalism.
Nationalism is something bad, that causes only war. I as Polish man and passionate of supercenenarians am far away from approving of nationalism, which caused the war that made so much suffering to people. That is why I vote for pro-european integration party.
Nationality, on the other hand, is the bond they share with their country, the language they speak.
It is something of great value in Poland, because of its hard history. The true identity.
And Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński's biography is the best example how important factor it is.
He was of Polish nobility and fought for Poland's freedom and independence.
Thanks to his attitude and those like him, I can now live, study and work in peaceful, independent, prospering country.

By listing Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński in GRG lists we make a great distinction and commemoration of his person.
For all the world and future generations to know about Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński.
I know my friends in Poland were dreaming for such commemoration for a long time.
I'm very very grateful to you for the fact. That is could finally became reality.

Nevertheless, currently the place where Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński was born is not Poland anymore, because in 1945, after the World War II and Jalta conference it was given to USSR and now there is Ukraine.

Therefore instead of "Ukraine (Russian Empire)" is should be "Poland (now Ukraine)"
Please acknowlegde the fact for the sake of Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński. I am sure he would be grateful of such credit if he could see it. Maybe he does...


2. The validators:
Why there is only me? I was not the only person who found and delievered the documents supporting the true age of Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński. The marriage certificate was ensured by Mr. Andrew Holmes, GRG-Great Britain Correspondent. He must be mentioned as validator too. The cooperation with him was for me the very first of the kind as GRG correspondent. And I can here citate of Antoine Demarais, the youngest GRG correspondent: "The cooperation between correspondents is something wonderful, don't you think?". That was the moment in which his concept became my concept too. It is the international cooperation. In this case between Poland and Great Britain. And working with Andrew on Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński's case was for me the great pleasure and honour.
Therefore my plea.


3. The name
Mr. Pajączkowski Dydyński was given two names at his baptism: Jerzy Kazimierz
That is why I please to mention them both. As Polish nobility, he always had his two names acknowledged. I know it is quite long name, but I remind French supercentenarian Mrs. Geneviève de Reviers de Mauny who was of nobility as well and also had quite a long name and she figures on the GRG list with her full name.
Thus I please to make the correction for: "Jerzy Kazimierz Pajaczkowski-Dydynski".

I'm kindly asking for your understanding.
Yours sincerely,

Wacław Jan Kroczek
Waclaw,

One of the points of the Table EE list is to allow for mistakes to be corrected before final validation status is achieved (the other is to indicate which cases are likely to be accepted as validated in the near future).

Second, what about someone such as John McEnroe: an American born in Germany? NATIONALITY DOES NOT MATTER, OK???

What matters is PLACE OF BIRTH.

So, I'll agree that we can make the listing for Mr. Jerzy even more confusing than it already is, but I find your comments about Ukraine to be out of line. Russian Poland was part of the Russian Empire in 1894, and so was Ukraine. But Ukrainians viewed themselves as Ukrainian, not Russian. What's the difference? Both Poland and Ukraine are today independent nations. The only difference is that Ukraine did not become free until 1991, whereas Poland achieved independence earlier.

And Ukraine's history is one similar to Poland's: wars and foreign domination. This 1922 photo says a lot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Children_affected_by_famine_in_Berdyansk,_Ukraine_-_1922.jpg

If our empathy for humanity ends at an artificial border, then we have some growing to do. There's a reason I'm a GLOBALIST. We are all human; we all age. We all age at roughly the same rate. The main concerns of the GRG list are the age of the individuals, and whether we have proof, not a "race" whereby one nation is competing against another. We do want to have greater expansion of documentation coverage, and we appreciate your efforts for that. But I'm not really sympathetic to your nationalistic viewpoints. I note you list ethnic Germans separate from Polish persons, even if they were born in what is today Poland. That to me is problematic. I'd prefer to emphasize geography here, not nationalism, so if Augusta Holtz were born in "Germany (now Poland)", I believe that indicates to the reader that Holtz was born in what was then Germany, and it's now land in Poland.

I'm somewhat optimistic that Europe's borders have mostly stopped changing since WWII (with Yugoslavia's breakup the major exception). But in dealing with people born 110+ years ago and relating their place of birth to what the modern reader knows the current map looks like we have a problem.

So, I agree that Jerzy P should be listed as born in "Poland (now Ukraine)" for the geographic place of birth. Problem solved.

The remaining issue: should we list those born in Poland (Russian Empire) as just "Poland"? What if they were ethnic Russian, and when they were born they considered themselves as born in Russia? I note that Lillian Joelson case is just such a conundrum.

We could list Jerzy P as born in "Poland (Russian Empire)/(now Ukraine)...but that doesn't fit well in the space provided and is becoming messy. Points to ponder. I'm open to discussing this...that's the point of the GRG Forum, a place for GRG supercentenarian researchers to share their work and work together to produce a better public product for the GRG readership.

Sincerely
Robert Young
Senior Consultant for Gerontology, Guinness World Records (from Nov 23 2005)
Senior Claims Researcher, Gerontology Research Group (from June 1999-2012, 2014).
Senior Database Administrator, Gerontology Research Group (from Dec 2012)
Director, GRG Supercentenarian Research and Database Division (from Feb 12 2015)
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Robert D. Young
19 Oct 2013, 16:35
Waclaw Jan Kroczek
18 Oct 2013, 19:22
Dear GRG,
There are 3 things that must be corrected about Mr. Pajaczkowski-Dydynski.

1. The birthplace:
It should be "Poland (now Ukraine)".
Mr. Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński was of Polish nationality.
He was a Polish noble man.
He was neither Russian nor Ukrainian. There did not even existed Ukraine in 1894.
And there definitely should not be written Russian Empire, because in Lwów, where Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński was born there was never part of such state.
He was born in Poland! Those were Polish lands!
Lwów was the Polish city inhabited by Polish majority.
GRG, please acknowlegde the fact.
Before the three empires took by force Polish independence, those lands belonged to Poland for hundred of years!
It would be dishonour for Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński not to write the fact he was born in Poland.

This is not about nationalism.
You must differ nationality from nationalism.
Nationalism is something bad, that causes only war. I as Polish man and passionate of supercenenarians am far away from approving of nationalism, which caused the war that made so much suffering to people. That is why I vote for pro-european integration party.
Nationality, on the other hand, is the bond they share with their country, the language they speak.
It is something of great value in Poland, because of its hard history. The true identity.
And Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński's biography is the best example how important factor it is.
He was of Polish nobility and fought for Poland's freedom and independence.
Thanks to his attitude and those like him, I can now live, study and work in peaceful, independent, prospering country.

By listing Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński in GRG lists we make a great distinction and commemoration of his person.
For all the world and future generations to know about Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński.
I know my friends in Poland were dreaming for such commemoration for a long time.
I'm very very grateful to you for the fact. That is could finally became reality.

Nevertheless, currently the place where Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński was born is not Poland anymore, because in 1945, after the World War II and Jalta conference it was given to USSR and now there is Ukraine.

Therefore instead of "Ukraine (Russian Empire)" is should be "Poland (now Ukraine)"
Please acknowlegde the fact for the sake of Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński. I am sure he would be grateful of such credit if he could see it. Maybe he does...


2. The validators:
Why there is only me? I was not the only person who found and delievered the documents supporting the true age of Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński. The marriage certificate was ensured by Mr. Andrew Holmes, GRG-Great Britain Correspondent. He must be mentioned as validator too. The cooperation with him was for me the very first of the kind as GRG correspondent. And I can here citate of Antoine Demarais, the youngest GRG correspondent: "The cooperation between correspondents is something wonderful, don't you think?". That was the moment in which his concept became my concept too. It is the international cooperation. In this case between Poland and Great Britain. And working with Andrew on Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński's case was for me the great pleasure and honour.
Therefore my plea.


3. The name
Mr. Pajączkowski Dydyński was given two names at his baptism: Jerzy Kazimierz
That is why I please to mention them both. As Polish nobility, he always had his two names acknowledged. I know it is quite long name, but I remind French supercentenarian Mrs. Geneviève de Reviers de Mauny who was of nobility as well and also had quite a long name and she figures on the GRG list with her full name.
Thus I please to make the correction for: "Jerzy Kazimierz Pajaczkowski-Dydynski".

I'm kindly asking for your understanding.
Yours sincerely,

Wacław Jan Kroczek
Waclaw,

One of the points of the Table EE list is to allow for mistakes to be corrected before final validation status is achieved (the other is to indicate which cases are likely to be accepted as validated in the near future).

Second, what about someone such as John McEnroe: an American born in Germany? NATIONALITY DOES NOT MATTER, OK???

What matters is PLACE OF BIRTH.

So, I'll agree that we can make the listing for Mr. Jerzy even more confusing than it already is, but I find your comments about Ukraine to be out of line. Russian Poland was part of the Russian Empire in 1894, and so was Ukraine. But Ukrainians viewed themselves as Ukrainian, not Russian. What's the difference? Both Poland and Ukraine are today independent nations. The only difference is that Ukraine did not become free until 1991, whereas Poland achieved independence earlier.

And Ukraine's history is one similar to Poland's: wars and foreign domination. This 1922 photo says a lot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Children_affected_by_famine_in_Berdyansk,_Ukraine_-_1922.jpg

If our empathy for humanity ends at an artificial border, then we have some growing to do. There's a reason I'm a GLOBALIST. We are all human; we all age. We all age at roughly the same rate. The main concerns of the GRG list are the age of the individuals, and whether we have proof, not a "race" whereby one nation is competing against another. We do want to have greater expansion of documentation coverage, and we appreciate your efforts for that. But I'm not really sympathetic to your nationalistic viewpoints. I note you list ethnic Germans separate from Polish persons, even if they were born in what is today Poland. That to me is problematic. I'd prefer to emphasize geography here, not nationalism, so if Augusta Holtz were born in "Germany (now Poland)", I believe that indicates to the reader that Holtz was born in what was then Germany, and it's now land in Poland.

I'm somewhat optimistic that Europe's borders have mostly stopped changing since WWII (with Yugoslavia's breakup the major exception). But in dealing with people born 110+ years ago and relating their place of birth to what the modern reader knows the current map looks like we have a problem.

So, I agree that Jerzy P should be listed as born in "Poland (now Ukraine)" for the geographic place of birth. Problem solved.

The remaining issue: should we list those born in Poland (Russian Empire) as just "Poland"? What if they were ethnic Russian, and when they were born they considered themselves as born in Russia? I note that Lillian Joelson case is just such a conundrum.

We could list Jerzy P as born in "Poland (Russian Empire)/(now Ukraine)...but that doesn't fit well in the space provided and is becoming messy. Points to ponder. I'm open to discussing this...that's the point of the GRG Forum, a place for GRG supercentenarian researchers to share their work and work together to produce a better public product for the GRG readership.

Sincerely
Robert Young
Thank you Mr. Young for understanding of the matter.

The place of birth of Mr. Pajaczkowski-Dydynski there was not administered by Russian Empire but by Austria-Hungary at this time. This complicates the matter too much therefore I agree with your statement.
The political borders does not count. They tend to change. It is the geographical place of birth that counts. So I agree that condidering this it would be best if there is "Poland (now Ukraine)". It is the most simple way, and easy to understand by the wider public, which does not has to be familiar with the detailed political history of the region. And the history is complicated.

I did distinguish ethnic German supercentenarians who were born in Poland not for the national, political or competitive reason but for the social reason. I did that for the people. Because I know, that other people, who read the list on wikipedia would mind if I didn't do that. Not everybody is globalist. Maybe if there were more of the kind, there would be more peace in the world.

In Central Europe, the borders did change in XXth century. I approve of the idea of emphasizing geography. And so like Augusta Holtz was born in what was then Germany and now it's land in Poland it should be "Germany (now Poland)" and the same goes for Mr. Pajaczkowski-Dydynski - Poland (now Ukraine).

The peace we currently see in most part of Europe is thanks to the international cooperation on political, economical and social platform. It is of great importance. That is why the European Union won the Nobel Prize in 2012.

If the people born in Poland were ethnic Russian, I will know about this because it is my duty as GRG Correspondent to get to know the people and their background while gathering documents. For instance, to distinguish ethnic Russian in metrics is simple. Their birth record e.g. does not contain Polish spelling of names. Ethnic Russians were rather seen in bigger cities. But the province was all Polish. So if those people considered themselves as Russians and were born in Poland at those times, then I would only for their cases write "Poland (Russian Empire)".

By the case of Mr. Pajaczkowski-Dydynski, considering his strong bonds with Poland on patriotic and geographical platform and taking in mind the fact that the geographically his birthplace is now part of Ukraine, the best solution for his case is: "Poland (now Ukraine)"

And, please, be sure to:
1. add Andrew Holmes as validator too.
2. add both baptism names: Jerzy Kazimierz
3. change place of death: England (UK)

Thank you very much,

Yours sincerely,

Wacław Jan Kroczek
GRG Administrative Assistant for Case Validation Summaries (from Aug. 15, 2015)
GRG Correspondent for Poland (from Sept. 13, 2013)
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Everything fine now :)
Thank you, GRG
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Stefan Jamin
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I don't have a problem with nameing the place of birth "Poland", but my problem with your argumentation for listing the place of birth as "Poland" an not "Russian Empire (Poland)" that we have problems with a clear line and to use the name of the nation when the are born is a clear criteria - but I must confess that I'm a historican and there for I greater focus for correcht histirical terms.

To give you some examples:
1. Some german SCs where born in region which had a long tradition of german influence and where long a part of "Germany" (German Empire, German Confederation and Holy Roman Empire) but now a part of Poland or Russia. So it wouldn't be correct to say that they where born in Poland, for example. But also some of the germans live(d) in Poland after 1945 and had children there, so there children where born in Poland and so it would be correct to list there place of birth as "Poland" even if there families moved to germany maybe in 1947...
2. Or look to cases like Elizabeth Stefan: When she was born her birth place was part of hungary, but changed after WW I to Romania. But still ther eplace of birth is listed as "hungary" - also the GRG before they renamed it after a long discussion "Austria-Hungary", for exampel. That's better, but I also think that "Austria-Hungary (Hungary)" btw. ;)
3. Look at Bessarabia or Slovenia, that more complicated. ;)

Btw.: Is was for "Russian Empire (Congress Poland)" because only listing "Russia" would lead to a wrong impression.
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Stefan Jamin
20 Oct 2013, 15:12
1. Some german SCs where born in region which had a long tradition of german influence and where long a part of "Germany" (German Empire, German Confederation and Holy Roman Empire) but now a part of Poland or Russia. So it wouldn't be correct to say that they where born in Poland, for example. But also some of the germans live(d) in Poland after 1945 and had children there, so there children where born in Poland and so it would be correct to list there place of birth as "Poland" even if there families moved to germany maybe in 1947...
In this case, I see the solution as follows:

1. Germany(now Poland) for those cases, who...
- 1.1 ...were born in II German Reich (1871-1918) in what now is Greater Poland, Silesia and Pomerania.
- 1.2 ...were born in Weimar Republic (1918-1933) in what now is Silesia(western part), Oppelnland, Lower Silesia, Lebusland, West Pomerania, Pomerania(western part), Greater Poland(western part) and Warmia-Masuria
- 1.3 ...were born in III German Reich (1933-1945) in the same regions as for Weimar Republic.
and migrated to Germany or stayed in Poland.

I'm futurist here, because eventually we will have Sc's born after World War First.

2. Germany(now Russia) for those cases, who were born in Eastern Prussia (northern part) before 1945, which currently is part of Russia.

3. Germany(now Lithuania) for those cases, who were born in Eastern Prussia (northernmost part) before 1918, which currently is part of Lithuania. The Klaipeda region. I wonder if we will ever have such a case?

4. Poland for those cases who were born in Silesia, Greater Poland, Pomerania and Free City of Gdańsk after 1918 and migrated to Germany later. Then they should be considered as German supercentenarians, though the birthplace still remains Poland. There are not many such cases, but yes, there were! Especially in southern part of Pomerania and the city Gdańsk (german: Danzig)

Posted Image

As you see on the map above there is a lot of territorial changes in Central Europe in XXth century.
The Alsace-Lorraine issue already cased some trouble.... And now look at the East ;).

That is why I begun my work with supercentenarians from making a historical background.
For the reason, that the supercentenarians are the living history among us, as the description on The 110 Club logo mentions.

Here I tried to explain the Polish-German issue: http://z3.invisionfree.com/The_110_Club/index.php?showtopic=8151&st=0
It is far from an ideal description but I hope that it just might give some light on the historical background.
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Robert D. Young
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Mark E. Muir
19 Oct 2013, 01:09
Remember I am not speaking for Robert, but I'm sure he will review here and make changes as needed.

About Mr. Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński:

1.) birth place: from what everything shows, it looks like we need to change to "Poland (now Ukraine)".

2.) Yes, Andrew Holmes should be a second validator for this case due to getting the marriage record.

3.) If "he always had his two names acknowledged", then yes we would have no problem making his name "Jerzy Kazimierz Pajączkowski-Dydyński" regardless if it's long, that's fine.

We overlook some things, and make some mistakes. I did not notice those mistakes when I posted the new Table EE for Robert. We will fix them as we evaluate the details.

Cheers,

* MEM
Mark E. Muir
Genevieve de Reviers de Mauny is a case where there are two last names (de Reviers and De Mauny), I believe.

Please explain: are you saying that Kazimierz is a "first" and not middle name?

Edited by Robert D. Young, 20 Oct 2013, 19:05.
Senior Consultant for Gerontology, Guinness World Records (from Nov 23 2005)
Senior Claims Researcher, Gerontology Research Group (from June 1999-2012, 2014).
Senior Database Administrator, Gerontology Research Group (from Dec 2012)
Director, GRG Supercentenarian Research and Database Division (from Feb 12 2015)
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Robert D. Young
20 Oct 2013, 18:42
Genevieve de Reviers de Mauny is a case where there are two last names (de Reviers and De Mauny), I believe.

Please explain: are you saying that Kazimierz is a "first" and not middle name?

Yes, Waclaw is saying that "Jerzy Kazimierz" are the two given first names that he was always addressed with.

I'm sure Waclaw can explain why he is sure that both first names are necessary -- it may be the same with some European cases where Maria <2nd name> are both considered part of the first name.

* MEM
Mark E. Muir
Gerontology Research Group (GRG) Correspondent, North America, (2011 - present) and Senior Administrator (2014 - present)
Co-Founder of GRG Supercentenarian Forum (12-Dec-2011 to present)
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Mark E. Muir
20 Oct 2013, 20:11
Robert D. Young
20 Oct 2013, 18:42
Genevieve de Reviers de Mauny is a case where there are two last names (de Reviers and De Mauny), I believe.

Please explain: are you saying that Kazimierz is a "first" and not middle name?

Yes, Waclaw is saying that "Jerzy Kazimierz" are the two given first names that he was always addressed with.

I'm sure Waclaw can explain why he is sure that both first names are necessary -- it may be the same with some European cases where Maria <2nd name> are both considered part of the first name.

* MEM
Mark E. Muir
Yes, Mr Young.
"Jerzy Kazimierz" are the two given names, Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński received at His baptism in 1894. In Poland it was common for the nobility to possess two given names and thus the fact. And Mr. Pajączkowski-Dydyński came from Polish nobility, His father was M.D. And headmaster of hospital in Sanok. At that Times, such a position was destinated rather only for the nobility class in those lands.

However, some People, who were not from the nobility, but lived in Town, not in a village, and had the aspirations for middle-upper class, would also give the child two names e.g. Józefa Stanisława Szyda.

Others, who were born to peasant farmers parents were traditionally given Just one name e.g. Marianna Misiewicz, Julianna Garbacz, Józefa Karczewska. They all were born in small villages.

Greetings,
Wacław Jan
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Stefan Jamin
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I know the changes of german Borders and I also looking in the future when we will have a lot of cases born after WWI...

In my person list I have a column for historical region and one for the today region. And we have some SC-clamis for other regions: One where born in a region know belonging to Russia, for example.
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Stefan Jamin
21 Oct 2013, 21:30
I know the changes of german Borders and I also looking in the future when we will have a lot of cases born after WWI...

In my person list I have a column for historical region and one for the today region. And we have some SC-clamis for other regions: One where born in a region know belonging to Russia, for example.
Stefan, I know. ;)

btw, was the person born in what is now Kaliningrad Oblast?
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
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Mr. Young, Mr. Muir

Let me ask one question.
Shouldn't be Stefan's name added as the second validating person for the case of Mrs. Aleksandra Dranka? Thanks to Stefan we got the very interesting document, which I could present to the family as well.

Greetings,
WJK
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Stefan Jamin
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Waclaw Jan Kroczek
22 Oct 2013, 12:18
Stefan Jamin
21 Oct 2013, 21:30
btw, was the person born in what is now Kaliningrad Oblast?
Correct.
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