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| Twilight Princess | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 13 2006, 11:11 PM (1,376 Views) | |
| Grey | Dec 24 2006, 08:38 AM Post #101 |
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I <3 GA#42
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I haven't played TP, but I had to post. Rumour, I do the same thing (separate quality from how much I enjoy a game), which is why my favorite film or favorite game usually isn't what I consider to be the 'best' per se'. I feel like The Godfather and Citizen Kane are two of the best, most important films ever made yet Citizen Kane isn't even in my top ten favorites. The same applies to video games as well. My favorite game ever happens to be Kingdom Hearts, yet by no stretch of imagination do I think it is the 'best' game ever made. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 24 2006, 05:53 PM Post #102 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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Oh, no, I'm not saying that it's because I separate my enjoyment and my assessment of quality, I'm saying that the odd manner in which I separate the two is what makes me weird. |
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| Renegade | Dec 24 2006, 06:50 PM Post #103 |
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what
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I'm getting this game on Tuesday, can't wait. P.S: My first post on the Wii browser. |
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| Arche | Dec 24 2006, 07:24 PM Post #104 |
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Deliciously Demonish
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Same here. It really did feel like playing through OoT again, and most of the game felt dumbed down from that, even. It was very pretty, yes, but Wolf Link served extremely little purpose for the greater part of everything. Wolf Link felt very gimmicky in the end, and wasn't even close to being as interesting as the Dark World, the Masks, or even OoT's time travel turned out to be. It was a very bland and timid effort, and felt like a giant case of "we don't want to try new things or else we might lose our fanboys" rather than the awesome game that we were told to expect. I don't see myself playing through it again any time soon. And I really didn't like how random mini-games popped up every once in a while with no real purpose. I don't think that the game would have suffered at all from a lack of sumo wrestling or lack of snowboarding. They added nothing at all to the game. The biggest problem with the game that I had was how certain things felt very much like an annoying added chore rather than being fun. Like bug hunting when as Wolf Link for the first few areas. Or chasing the Skull Kid in the Sacred Grove. Right after that is how laughably easy the bosses are. Out of the entire game, I died a grand total of two times; one when I wasn't paying attention and the hawk managed to off me in Ordon Village at the start of the game while I was talking to someone on the phone; and once when I decided to tackle the Cavern of Ordeals without knowing what it was. What's annoying is that with some actually decent life-totals, the bosses would have been a far more enjoyable experience. Out of the non-Ganon/non-Zant boss battles, I think the longest in terms of needed damage was... Stallord? Maybe the Sky City boss, simply because hitting him to damage him involved waiting for the chance to open up. It would have been also nice if the weak point of the boss wasn't so damn blatant all the time. Utopian is spot on about it being pretty mediocre in the end. I'd probably give it a 6.5/10, or maybe a 7/10 at best, in the end. It was very lacklustre when compared with Okami or even Ruff Trigger. After playing it, the whole delay thing feels less like their "we want to make it perfect" line and a lot more, "we need something to fill a hole in the Wii launch lineup so this goes in." In a lot of ways, it's sort of a dark mirror of FF XII, where source material that went against what a lot of the series core fans liked (difficulty, FF XI battles, etc) was polished into something that was truly amazing, could appeal to a wider variety of people while still maintaining depth and fun, and the time put into it was almost palpable. TP, on the other hand, seemed like what was least objectionable to the core fans was just made prettier and expanded on, and the delay time felt strange. Honestly, I can't see TP needing all that time, and it just was not worth the wait at all. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 25 2006, 01:04 AM Post #105 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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I can certainly see why it took so long. There were a lot of details to the game, and they completely redid the Twilight Realm half-way through the development. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 26 2006, 10:43 AM Post #106 |
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Wizardry 9
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I hate playing in wolf form, it reminds me too much of Okami. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 26 2006, 12:02 PM Post #107 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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XD It becomes less important later in the game, and is mostly for puzzles than anything else. |
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| Renegade | Dec 26 2006, 12:37 PM Post #108 |
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what
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Hey, well, I'd have to disagree with Utops and Arche... I'm really enjoying this, and so far, I think it's better than any Zelda. The Wii version brings a whole new dimension to the game, just the controls alone make it seem like something I've never played before. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 26 2006, 12:43 PM Post #109 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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Eh, I like WW more, but that's purely because of the graphics and music. I can appreciate the largely ambient music in TP, but I just liked's Minegishi's work in WW more. I think that the dungeon design is a lot better in TP, though. TP feels kinda dead to me, though. Like, the world. The settlements don't feel like settlements, and even Hyrule Castle Town with all of its NPCs just feels like a city of robots... |
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| Renegade | Dec 26 2006, 12:49 PM Post #110 |
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what
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Heh, well maybe that was the atmosphere they were trying to convey, right off the start I noticed this was a much much more dark and depressing Zelda. One thing I don't like though, is the Midna jumping sequences. And you were right, I wish I could have some degree of camera control... but in the end I realize it's more for aesthetics than anything else. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 26 2006, 12:57 PM Post #111 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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Well, no, it's not even like it conveys a depressing, dying world; there are a lot of people, it's just that they're just there. It's not like in OoT or WW where they would do things, or where there were places in their settlement; it's like you just see a bunch of Zoras standing around. There isn't a Goron village, there's a hot springs with Gorons there. There isn't a Zora's Domain, there's a throne room with a bunch of Zora's standing around. The only settlement that feels like a settlement is Kakariko, and that manages to convey a sort of depressing, dying feeling. |
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| UtopiaNH | Dec 26 2006, 01:50 PM Post #112 |
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Cu Roi
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I truly fail to see how the controls alter the gameplay even slightly. The only place they really make a difference is the rather retarded and abhorrently frequent mini-games stuffed in. As a side note, the dungeon design improved beyond the abysmal state later in the game, and the last couple dungeons are a marked bit better, more creative and acceptable, but those two dungeons or so don't make up for an overall bad design and experience. I mean the final dungeon is neat with the wall climbing and open pitfalls, but it only about equals the tower of the gods in the Wind Waker in terms of overall design. I absolutely loathe how many minigames there are in this game. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 26 2006, 02:02 PM Post #113 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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I think that aiming is a lot simpler and smoother with the remote than with the analog stick, but apart from that it doesn't make that much of a difference. Apart from how you can sit in any position that you want with the Wii, but that's different. I mean, I guess swinging the remote is simpler and more intuitive than pressing a button, but it doesn't make that much of a difference. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 28 2006, 12:14 PM Post #114 |
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Wizardry 9
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I find the Wii controls more limiting since I'm unable to lie down in my bed and play due to the placement of my sensor bar and the height of my bed. Which really sucks since that's how I usually play consoles.
I fail to see how physically swinging the remote is simpler than pressing a button. So far, the only benefit the remote brings to the game is aiming with projectile weapons. Some "whole new dimension" eh? The game might have been new back in '98 when it was first released but for now, it's a huge upset for something that has been in development for so long. And yes, the minigames are annoying as hell. I'm at the Temple of Time by the way and yes, I'm playing the Wii version and it doesn't change a damn thing. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 28 2006, 12:22 PM Post #115 |
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Wizardry 9
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I'll say that Wii Sports is a definite simple and intuitive use of the remote. But in Zelda, they seemed to have just thrown in certain usages because they felt compelled to make use of it somehow. Swinging the remote to attack isn't any more fun or interesting than pressing a button, in fact, I'd categorize it as "needlessly tiring". |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 28 2006, 12:43 PM Post #116 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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That's unfortunate. I usually either lie on my couch or on the floor. Actually, that's weird, because the sensor bar is probably a good five feet above the controller when I'm on the floor and it's fine... Though I'm also a good eight feet away from the TV...
*shrug* I find it more intuitive. Given the shape of the controller and the type of action that you're doing, it feels better swinging your wrist a bit than to press a button.
Tiring? Are you... doing it right? I just finished playing for about three hours straight and my wrist feels fine. It's sensitive enough that you hardly have to move at all. I do agree that the sword functionality was tacked on (flip flop much, Miyamoto? At E3 he was all like, "We didn't make you swing because that makes you too tired," and then in September he's like, "It's more fun this way!"), but I'm looking forward to the next Zelda in the hopes that they'll do something with it. 1:1 (or at least more precisely mapped) swordplay could add a lot that couldn't be done with a regular controller; different swipes and such. (Of course, that could be done on a regular controller, but it would be needlessly restricted and complicated, I think.) It could also add a lot to the combat, with different enemies requiring different types of attacks. I'm actually looking really forward to the next one. If Miyamoto and Aonuma keep their promise, it could be really interesting. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 28 2006, 12:54 PM Post #117 |
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Wizardry 9
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I didn't mean that it's literally tiring, but it's just needless and "tacked on" as you say and all it really does is make your hands tired, which it doesn't, but if it does anything, it does that (which it doesn't). You catch my drift? |
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| Renegade | Dec 28 2006, 01:23 PM Post #118 |
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what
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To me it's just a lot more interesting to play with the Wii controls. I don't know, it's just more fun, like Miyamoto said. My friends seem to think so too. Some of them don't even like Zelda (casual gamers... "it's too boring!"), but they had a blast playing TP, especially the combat. I really can't go back to a 'regular controller Zelda' after this. And sounds like you need to position your sensor bar in a better place KK, because same as RM, I can pretty much lie down on the floor, on the couch, any distance and still play fine. And what mini-games?! They're only like, 1-2 minutes long and not THAT frequent. I actually thought most of them (so far) were fun and added something new to the game. However, I can already see some things that were in development but not fully implemented, which I expect to see in the next Zelda (physics, interactive environments, more open-ended structure, etc.). But honestly, I'm glad the Wii got me back into console games... I was afraid it wouldn't. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 28 2006, 01:27 PM Post #119 |
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Wizardry 9
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I can't place it on top of my TV because it's in a cabinet of sorts and the top of my TV it literally touching the bottom of the top of the cabinet. It fits on a shelf right below the TV but that shelf is directly in line with my bed (which doubles as my couch in my room). My bed is about 4 - 5 matresses tall, I'm going to fall off and kill myself oneday. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 28 2006, 01:33 PM Post #120 |
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Wizardry 9
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I'm sure they would at first and I'm sure they were wowed by the fact that when you swing the remote the sword moves too. But after playing the game for 5 hours and realizing that almost every battle can be won by holding down Z on the nunchuck and swinging your other hand until everything just dies I doubt they'd be as excited to battle. When I describe how Zelda works to my friends, they think it sounds amazing, but really, it's barely different than playing with a controller. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 28 2006, 01:34 PM Post #121 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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I absolutely HATE the snowboarding, the controls are floaty and horrible in general, but the sumo wrestling and flying are really fun, and I attribute that entirely to the Wii controller. I tried the flying without the pointer, and it's actually disorienting and it felt a lot less precise, and the sumo was only fun because I could slap the guy over and over... And as for your positioning problem, you could just tape the sensor bar to the cabinet that's right above your TV. The only thing that matters are the ends where it gives off the IR signal. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 28 2006, 01:41 PM Post #122 |
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Wizardry 9
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Come on, you can't attribute your like of Sumo-wrestling to the Wii controller. Is slightly moving your wrist to slap a guy that much more fun than pressing a button to slap a guy? I just don't get it. And I don't want to tape the sensor bar to the TV because until my friends actually manage to find a Wii, I bring mine over to their houses and to keep taping it would be a hassle. I'll find a permanent solution when I know it will remain here permanently. In case your wondering, when my parents asked me what I wanted for Christmas, I told them "nothing", which usually means I'll just end up getting money and clothes but they completely surprised me with a Wii. I'm kinda happy because now I have about 600$ spending money that I would have continued to build upon until I wanted to be a Wii or PS3 but now I can just save up for a PS3, and I'm practically already there. The sad thing is that after I beat Zelda, I won't end up touching the system for awhile (whenever SMG or MP3 comes out or some other game that looks interesting, I can't think of any others at the moment). |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 28 2006, 02:42 PM Post #123 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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That's the thing, I didn't just slightly move my wrist, I actually stood up and acted as if I was slapping someone. It was honestly SO much fun, and I would LOVE to see an entire game built around it. It's a shame that in TP it was as limited as it was.
You should rent a few games. My friend brought over Elebits the other day, and it's insanely fun, and Trauma Center is really addictive and super difficult, and Rayman is possibly the craziest game that I've ever played... |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 28 2006, 04:17 PM Post #124 |
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Wizardry 9
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I don't rent games. I have enough games that I own that I haven't beaten yet. And while I'm sure I'd enjoy playing Rayman or Elebits for a short while, they're definitely not something I would buy. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 28 2006, 07:48 PM Post #125 |
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Wizardry 9
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So you make your own fun. You could do the same thing with a GC controller. Stand up, and everytime you go to slap the guy, flick your wrists forward and hit A. Hell, you could even sidestep if you wanted to! The controls implemented for Zelda were just thrown on because they couldn't release the game without somehow taking advantage of the system's key features. The game wasn't designed with these features in mind, because they are pointless. I'm sick and tired of slashing my damn sword to attack, I think this is the worst damn feature they could have implemented. If it wasn't so damn comfy to have my seperate hands in any position that I want I would be better off reverting to the GC controller so I don't have to deal with this stupid gimmick. If you can't tell, I just came back from a combat-heavy playing session. |
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| Renegade | Dec 28 2006, 09:40 PM Post #126 |
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what
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I enjoy the combat... it actually feels like you're doing something instead of just pressing a button 5 times. |
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| Kimimi | Dec 28 2006, 09:51 PM Post #127 |
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Teikokukagekidan: Hanagumi official tea maker :)
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The thing is though, you aren't. Waving Wiimote about = pressing button. Until they start implementing 1:1 movement in Wii games, it's nothing more than smoke and mirrors. |
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| RiotGrrl | Dec 28 2006, 10:11 PM Post #128 |
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Errant Dreamer
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So, I'm about three hours into the game, and my main gripe with the controls is the fact that the B button is basically the only other functional button on the remote. You have to cycle everything through to the B button to actually use the other stuff. I understand why they did it - the D-pad is in a rather awkward position to actually use the items, but still, it ends up being rather awkward. The combat, I feel that it's fun, but it could have been better. I would have rather preferred a more refined combat engine. Even if it was WW's little reaction command system... of course, I'm still in the early stages of combat and all, so maybe things will get more complex, but for now.. We'll see. Wolf combat seems a bit awkward. But yeah, I'm definitely enjoying it nonetheless. The art direction and story have really captivated me though, and the mini-games come of as fun instead of annoying. I'm enjoying myself so far, though! |
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| Renegade | Dec 28 2006, 10:14 PM Post #129 |
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what
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You see, I just don't really mind if it's all fake even, because it's enjoyable. I can overlook the whole 'oh this is wrong technically' if the game I'm playing is fun. |
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| Justin | Dec 28 2006, 10:49 PM Post #130 |
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Teh RPG Master
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Not to further the argument but, I have to agree with KK. The sword stuff really does feel tacked on. I found I was far more comfortable with the standard GC controls. That really is the only thing in the Wii version that I found annoying. I mean ok fine you have the slapping bit with the Sumo mini game, you have semi-real action for fishing, ETC. These actions I don't mind. It's the sword nonsense that I feel could have been left out. It just felt like an odd choice, that's all. Now if the whole 1:1 ratio thing was present then sword fighting would have been a different story. I understand why Nintendo retro fitted TP for the Wii release but, they seriously should have mapped sword swinging to a button. As far as mini games are concerned I felt that the game had a good balance of them, most of them optional. I actually thought the Snowboarding one was a fun idea. It's not like it was hard and or got in the way either. It was just a nice little distraction, that's all. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 29 2006, 01:52 AM Post #131 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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You could, but talk about awkward...
Isn't it just so comfortable? But seriously, I don't get why it's such a big deal that you have to swing... I mean, it's unnecessary, yeah, but it's not any more difficult than pressing a button, at least not in my experience.
That's part of the whole Wii thing, though; the fact that often times doing an action is more fun and immersive than pressing a button to make the character do the action, even if the "action" is fake and doesn't translate properly. I mean, I certainly have more fun with "Rabbits Don't Know What To Do With Cows" by spinning the controller than I would with spinning an analog stick. In BDKWTDWC, Rayman doesn't spin at the same speed that you do, he simply spins faster the longer you spin; but that doesn't keep me from enjoying the actual spinning more.
That's actually what they did at E3, and everyone complained about how awkward it was having to hold the D-pad button to shoot the bow and whatnot. I actually like it, because it means I can have four items on at once and it's much less menu crawling.
A) It gets a lot more complex. It expands a lot on WW's reaction commands (they exist, but they're learned as you progress and they're fully manual, and there are a few of them) and they are used relatively often. Wolf combat is EXTREMELY awkward. I never used the swinging combat while I was a wolf; I just locked on and pressed A. The entire reason that the sword works for me is that it feels natural, but swinging to lunge... That's just weird.
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 29 2006, 12:35 PM Post #132 |
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Wizardry 9
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Attacking with the wolf is just the same as attacking with the sword. In both cases, you swing, shake, turn, or whatever to the remote and it performs the same action as pressing the attack button on the GC controller would. If Link actually swung the sword the same way you moved the remote, it would be different. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 29 2006, 01:27 PM Post #133 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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No, it's not the same thing. It feels a lot more natural to swing while I'm human Link because I'm swinging the controller while Link swings his sword. No, he isn't swinging it the same way that I am, but it's close enough that it feels natural. It doesn't, however, feel natural for me to perform a swinging action in order to jump forward and bite someone. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 29 2006, 01:47 PM Post #134 |
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Wizardry 9
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But it feels natural to swing your remote one way and have link swing his the other? Swinging the remote just replaced pushing a button. It's all in your head, if you want you could just swing the GC controller and push A at the same time because it's the exact same thing. Hell, since you literally get up to play sumo-wrestling and make the game fun by doing the actions, you could get up and jump towards the TV and pretend to bite the sensor bar everytime you attack with the wolf because it would still read the movement as the generic attack command. |
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| RiotGrrl | Dec 29 2006, 02:03 PM Post #135 |
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Errant Dreamer
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I think it's less about the swinging motion and more about how the Wolf-Link's lunge attack actually works. More often than not Link spazzes out and jumps erratically, making it more difficult to hit the enemy. This could have been a lot more refined, in my opinion. And I'm happy to hear that the combat does indeed get deeper. I'm about 3/4 of the way through the Forest Temple, and I must say that the entire thing feels very Zelda-like, but in a good way. The puzzles in this temple remind me a lot of the puzzles in a certain temple in Wind Waker, though... For some reason, the entire beginning of this game felt very... Kingdom Hearts II. That feeling's gone now that I'm tackling the first dungeon, but it was pretty odd. I think it's the slow pace of the opening (very similar to KHII in that type of structure), and the fact that the twilight world's enemies look a lot like Heartless. The whole twilight world reminds me of Tron as well - more KHII. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 29 2006, 02:25 PM Post #136 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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Mmhmm. I thought that, "No, he isn't swinging it the same way that I am, but it's close enough that it feels natural," was relatively clear.
I'm not a big fan of flying Wavebirds, thanks. The shape of the remote is what lends itself so readily to the sword swinging. You can't do this sort of thing with the Sixaxis because it makes so little sense in a physical sense.
"You could, but talk about awkward..." You're missing the point. I've said it a number of times pretty clearly, and I'm a bit tired of saying the same thing over and over. It feels natural. It's as simple as that. Swinging the GCN controller doesn't feel natural. I'm sorry if you don't get as much out of it as I do, but that's simply how I feel on the topic. *shrug* |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 29 2006, 02:36 PM Post #137 |
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Wizardry 9
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Well I'm glad it feels natural to you, but the movements themselves are not natural in the least. I am not arguing how they may feel to you, I'm arguing how they are. The sensor reads movement of the remote as an attack command, meaning you can move that remote however the hell you want, and Link is going to do the same attack. This is not natural. Unless the movments are 1:1 or close to it (like Wii Sports), they are just going to be a simple gimmick tacked on to make use of the sensor. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 29 2006, 02:39 PM Post #138 |
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Doing anything other than moving the remote from side to side, or at best forward, is just plain silly.
I never said otherwise. All I was saying was that it feels a lot more natural than while attacking as a wolf. I think it feels better because I'm holding a long implement, like Link, and to swing said implement and see Link swing the implement that he is holding feels a lot nicer than swinging the implement and seeing Link jump forward. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 29 2006, 02:54 PM Post #139 |
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Wizardry 9
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For me it feels better since the most comfortable movement for me is to flick my wrists forward. Regardless, I still think it would be a lot more comfortable and just as engrossing to press a button. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 29 2006, 02:59 PM Post #140 |
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I was playing WW the other day, and it actually felt weird pressing B to attack. Not bad or awkward, just weird. At any rate, I'm glad that they mapped the sword to the remote, because it would have been ten times more annoying to have the sword on B and have to hold D-pad directions to use items. |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 29 2006, 03:05 PM Post #141 |
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Wizardry 9
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Well it's definitely going to feel weird since you're used to using the remote to swing. And they could have maybe used C to have the same function as B now then put freelook to 1 and have B be attack. That could at least be an alternative control scheme option or something. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 29 2006, 03:12 PM Post #142 |
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The Transcendent Pig
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Ideally for me, holding C would have been camera control, tapping C would have been free-look, + would have been map, - would have been menu... |
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| Killer Kitty | Dec 29 2006, 03:18 PM Post #143 |
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Wizardry 9
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I was surprised that the lack of camera control didn't bother me. I'm the type of person who always moves the camera, especially in platformers like Jak and Rachet. |
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| RumourMaker18 | Dec 29 2006, 03:24 PM Post #144 |
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Yeah, the autocam is actually pretty well done. There are situations where it freaks out and where I would like to move it, but it doesn't take away that much. |
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| Renegade | Jan 2 2007, 01:18 AM Post #145 |
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what
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The lack of a two-handed sword is disturbing. But the Master Sword is huge, anyway, so it's okay. Also it's too bad Epona becomes (somewhat) useless around halfway through the game. On another note, what do the shiny Chu jellies give you? I couldn't scoop one up in time... and upon re-entering the cave it was just replaced by a Blue one. |
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| RiotGrrl | Jan 8 2007, 02:39 PM Post #146 |
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Errant Dreamer
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Didn't know where to put this, but I figured I'd put it here... it's the most beautiful medley I've ever heard of Zelda music on a piano. Gorgeous. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECEJkNP1tH8 |
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| Renegade | Jan 8 2007, 09:54 PM Post #147 |
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what
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Well I just beat the game and I gotta say that was a pretty impressive final boss sequence. And the ending was nice, too. What to do now... |
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| Killer Kitty | Jan 8 2007, 10:12 PM Post #148 |
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Wizardry 9
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Go play Ys Origin. |
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| Renegade | Jan 9 2007, 01:11 PM Post #149 |
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what
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I wish. My computer is busted. I think I'll go do the Cave of Ordeals. |
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Wolf combat is EXTREMELY awkward. I never used the swinging combat while I was a wolf; I just locked on and pressed A. The entire reason that the sword works for me is that it feels natural, but swinging to lunge... That's just weird.

1:25 PM Jul 11