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| chrono trigger sucks; help get me in the critical mindset guys | |
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| Topic Started: Mar 10 2009, 05:32 PM (2,588 Views) | |
| sharc | Mar 10 2009, 05:32 PM Post #1 |
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wandering slacker
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so i've been participating in this little game discussion deal run by an academic blogger i used to read. for the most part the other users are all from the same mindset and i felt compelled to join for the sake of people who view games more as, y'know, games. the next one up is chrono trigger, which is just, fuck. i don't think it's a bad game; i like production values and a lack of bugs or "where do i go now" moments, but the game passes through me like water without imparting any nutritional content. it's almost like a template to me, in that it feels less like a specific game and more like pacing, systems and mechanics that should have become the bare minimum, established practice for the traditional jrpg; stuff like all encounters playing out on the map, uneven or broken ranks in most fights, and at least providing an illusion of things happening and stuff going on to place over a menu-driven turn-based system. so yeah, i can think of almost nothing interesting to talk about with this game, despite playing to some four or five times. i don't want to go stealing anyone's ideas, but maybe tapping the abyss collective will yield some angles to approach this thing from. |
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| Exalted | Mar 10 2009, 06:37 PM Post #2 |
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Ziggy had a ray gun.
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As a child I was in absolute awe of Chrono Trigger. The fact that almost every boss required a specific strategy (following a simple pattern) was enough for me to believe that it was tactically engaging. The music relied on repetitive beats built around a few key sections, which made it incredible at the time. All of the areas were well detailed and the plot was built around simplistic dialog, juvenile humor, and themes that were as inoffensive as they were common. Chrono Trigger is basically a saturday morning cartoon. In reality it is perfectly safe, and the repetitions in style in gameplay and style are what re-enforce it in the child's mind. So for me it basically worked on two levels. The first level is best compared to most songs that make it into the top 40, integration into the consumer's mind by repetition of simple yet pleasing beats. As a child I was far too bombastic to analyse a video game to find out why it affected me in the ways that it did. It's simple yet visually pleasing combat managed to present the occasional image of depth by offering a number of options in combat, mots specifically over many "distinctive" party members and a wide variety of techs. The choice was something of an illusion since the developers made sure that every combination of characters would be more than enough to take on any fight in the game. The simplicity in the strategies felt memorable to me; how blatantly they were presented made them seem logical. In a way it fed off of my ego. Due to my lack of insight as a child, every pattern to a boss fight felt like a genuine discovery. I felt as if I had outsmarted the game designers. Everyone I know likes to think of themselves as tactically brilliant. Acknowledging the combat system for what it was would have been denying what at the time seemed a strong compliment towards my intelligence. Looking back at Chrono Trigger is similar to reflecting on memories centered in pop culture. There is certainly nostalgia. I can't help but smile, but I cannot help but feel ashamed for being so easily manipulated. It is meant to be simple, enjoyable, and easy to finish. It is meant to be consumed. |
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| UtopiaNH | Mar 10 2009, 08:39 PM Post #3 |
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Cu Roi
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Mik, shut up. Thank you. Anyway, CT is CT, well polished and decent; and it is in no ways deserving of the massive amount of praise it receives, but few things are. I wouldn't stress about trying to figure out why other people like it, the answer is, there's very little blatantly wrong with it. |
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| Arche | Mar 10 2009, 10:35 PM Post #4 |
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Deliciously Demonish
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I don't hate CT, but I do not like the reactions it garners that equate polish with quality. Being accessible to the masses doesn't make a game bad, but it doesn't make it great on its own either. I agree with Utops that CT gets fan spooge because there's nothing blatantly wrong with it, so there's nothing to really pick at. There's no World of Ruin to alienate those who like their hands held; there's no ham-handedly somber and emo main to alienate those who don't feel like having their story be about a kid who shops at Hot Topic; there's not even glaring localization errors. All in all, a good product that deserves respect, even if it is essentially meant for kids and young teens in terms of depth and all that. |
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| Johnnygo | Mar 10 2009, 10:36 PM Post #5 |
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Myopic Islander fan. Thread Killer. Empty Glimmer.
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Chrono Trigger is cheese pizza... It's alright, but it's nothing special. Things I don't like about it: Akira Toriyama character designs. All scripted battles. Causality? ATB. It's fanboys. Whether or not that makes it a bad game? I'm not so sure. |
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| Kimimi | Mar 10 2009, 11:03 PM Post #6 |
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Teikokukagekidan: Hanagumi official tea maker :)
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I remember importing the US PS1 version with great excitment many years ago (hey, if I'd have waited for a UK release I would have only played it last month on DS), and being completely underwhelmed. I'm thinking about it now, and the posts by Arche and UtopiaNH are very true - it's a pretty vanilla experience that will not offend anyone in particular but doesn't do much to excite either. Thinking about it like that, I'd rather play a "worse" game that at least stirs up some form of emotion one way or the other over a game that comes and goes without a flicker of anything. |
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| Darkstalker | Mar 11 2009, 06:48 AM Post #7 |
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~ The QUEEN ~
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About the most interesting thing about the game was the whole time theme and more specifically, how you have (limited) freedom in when you want to initiate the final battle, and the endings reflected this to a degree. Besides that, it's alright. Not particularly good, not particularly bad either. |
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| sharc | Mar 11 2009, 10:41 AM Post #8 |
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wandering slacker
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yeah, i don't think anyone here has reason to hate chrono trigger - only its fans. which is hardly the game's fault. the more i think about it, the more solid the template comparison becomes. i like the pacing and the structure of the game's plot, but not the plot itself. the battle system is instantly appealing and more natural-feeling than the standard ff engine, but the actual mechanics are weak and shallow. i'm not really trying to figure out what other people like about it, utopia; the problem for me is that from a critical standpoint this game is elusive prey. its status makes chrono trigger generally immune to scrutiny, as there's not many people who are willing to buck public opinion. the ones that do generally either hate the game for superficial reasons or don't really have the chops to critique it. like arche, i feel like chrono trigger succeeds mostly by virtue of executing the jrpg formula without any mistakes than by doing anything particularly spectacular or outstanding within that framework. i think the saturday morning cartoon analogy is probably the most apt here. and y'know, i don't think there's anything wrong with that; i believe the team set out to make a simple, fun game that players could enjoy, because if there was any desire to make it serious or hard to play sakaguchi and hori would have probably found a way to do it. if you believe that chrono trigger, or any other sacred cow, is completely above criticism, then that pretty much means games have gotten as good as they ever will be; everything else is just going downhill, and the best we can hope for is something that lives up to an already published work. i think that's a pretty bleak way to look at things, and instead believe that by disassembling a game, not out of mean-spiritedness but out of a genuine interest to learn, that we can walk away from the experience with a better understanding of games and of ourselves. perhaps you don't think lobbing criticisms at a well-established classic is productive. perhaps you are also aware that the url bar in your browser is in fact a gateway - one that can lead you to many other wondrous places, where you may find entire communities of people with an outlook similar to your own? it's amazing, but true!! |
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| sharc | Mar 11 2009, 12:10 PM Post #9 |
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wandering slacker
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dude. this is a private board. nobody is doing anything for the sheer sake of provocation here. nobody here has some dire urge to find faults. i see what i consider faults and feel compelled to talk about them here, because i can't really do it anywhere else. the mere thought of taking a critical axe to this particular tree would be shouted down on just about every form on the internet without any actual consideration. the fact that the game is so widely acclaimed makes it an even more valid target for the critical eye because it's never really gotten any serious dressing-down. what i don't understand is why you're coming into an attempt at a serious discussion to mock the participants with a cliched one-liner. does it seriously bother you so much that a handful of people with no influence over either game journalism or production are gathering in a single thread at a secret, invite-only board to talk about what they didn't like in a game? you may have noticed that's a big part of what goes on here, and it's not because we want to piss people off, it's because this is really the only venue for holding such a discussion without it being instantly derailed. so for fuck's sake, stop getting so knee-jerk defensive. nobody's out to destroy the MASTERPIECES OF GAMING. |
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| sharc | Mar 11 2009, 12:40 PM Post #10 |
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wandering slacker
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i'm not making any attempt at professionalism, because this is not a professional environment. i'm only trying to get some discussion going among a group of casual friends. the only times people outright bash games around here it's for the sake of blowing off steam or amusing ourselves. i would expect any serious claims of faults to be backed up by in-depth discussion beyond "this sucks lol." there's a general attitude on the internet that i am dead fucking sick of: if you try to critique or analyze a game then it means you're just pretentious or you're taking games too seriously or you must be doing it to anger others and not because you actually find the task interesting. there's a difference between baseless slander and attempts at serious criticism. don't call one the other, man; we're not in the market for the former around these parts. i can't stand aimless hating on popular games either, because it deadens the impact of anything with actual thought put into it. |
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| Deleted User | Mar 11 2009, 01:22 PM Post #11 |
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Deleted User
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Well you know what, I apologize for my petty and useless comment. I've been angry at crap passed as gaming critique lately and it just kinda bled over into here. If a mod could please delete all my dumb posts before this so the topic can get back on track. If I see anything I agree with I'll even join in the chat. Sorry again to everyone in this topic that I may have ticked off with my annoyed remark. |
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| sharc | Mar 11 2009, 03:14 PM Post #12 |
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wandering slacker
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being angry at what passes for game criticism is a good sign, because the state of it is pretty damned awful. and nobody's saying you can't speak up in defense of a game you like, man; i'll probably always be compelled to say a good word for the sake of xenogears. just, y'know, this isn't neogaf. if you want to chime in, for whatever reason, then just take some time to think about what you want to say. nobody's trying to start fights here. |
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| Darkstalker | Mar 11 2009, 07:53 PM Post #13 |
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~ The QUEEN ~
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I thought you were my friend. Anyway, CT also had New Game +, which is something I forgot it had. One of the earliest to have it, maybe? I dunno. |
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| TEJ | Mar 11 2009, 08:06 PM Post #14 |
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Tales of Symphonia Fangirl
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The one thing I hate most about neogaf is the hivemind where you cannot critisize certain games or franchises...a god damned mod made a topic about how dragon quest was not archaiac and dismissed any opinions on how it might be. I think I just go to neogaf for the up to date news and photoshops. |
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| sharc | Mar 11 2009, 10:56 PM Post #15 |
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wandering slacker
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neogaf and similar hivemind forums are the goddamned death of reason. that kind of atmosphere, where everyone's favorites list looks exactly the fucking same and people are actually intimidated by the thought of raising a viewpoint that goes against others, is pretty much my nightmare. i used to get news from the destructoid/kotaku/joystiq family until i realized i was more often enraged than informed. the less contact i have with the general gaming community, the lower my blood pressure is! |
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