Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
 photo zd03tOG_zps1j3t5qcs.png
Add Reply
Generation and Diablerie
Topic Started: Jan 28 2015, 06:26 AM (609 Views)
Cyrus
The walls have text.
Last night a couple of us were talking about how diablerie should be handled in GBN. It didn't go too far before everyone had to check out for the night, so it'd probably be a good idea to continue that talk somewhere more permanent. It's kind of a big deal and handling it in a pseudo-freeform environment isn't quite the same as tabletop with an ST arbitrating.

How do you lot think that should be handled?

Spoiler: Aforementioned Discussion


The above is the log of that talk. Remember to read from the bottom up because of how the cbox records messages.
Notable Traits: Enchanting Voice
Character Bio | Character Sheet | Advancement Thread
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mouse
Member Avatar
O.G. Nos
I think it would be simplest to adapt it to Gehenna by Night's style with the intent to remain close to the established cannon. I'll present it as a point by point conversion of the rules.

I've referenced each benefit and drawback of diablerie as per page 294 and 295 of V20 and scaled them based upon one of three conditions that the diablerie occurs in.

Condition 1 - Diablerie that takes place as part of a player's post and serves the purpose of fun. For example, if Hinata diablerized a random NPC because that's just what she does on friday nights to cut loose.

Condition 2 - Diablerie takes place as part of a thread with an ST and develops naturally as part of the story. For example, if Amadu decided to diablerize Bruce the Chainsaw in Opening Salvo.

Condition 3 - Diablerie takes place during a plot line where an actual Elder of low generation is present. If Sera diablerized Tete or Katerina, for example.

1. Generation Increase

Condition 1 - Does not grant a generation increase. It's assumed that the victim is of equal or lower generation.

Condition 2 - A generation increase is granted up to a limit of 8th generation.

Condition 3 - The character may advance more than one generation and may exceed the 8th generation limit as per the storyteller's discretion.

2. Disciplines

Condition 1 - The character does not receive an increase to their disciplines.

Condition 2 - The character receives 2 discipline dots that last for the remainder of the scene. The character may learn an appropriate out of clan discipline as per the normal rules. (Exchange the drama of being tutored by a teacher for the drama of the diablerie itself)

Condition 3 - The character receives 4 discipline dots that last for the remainder of the scene and receives an immediate permanent discipline dot.

3. Stained Auras

Conditions 1 - The stained aura last until the end of the month when xp is distributed? Seems appropriate for something that otherwise has no benefits.

Condition 2 and 3 remain the same as per the rules. A Permanent drawback for a permanent benefit.

4. Diablerists 'taint'

Condition 1 - The taint lasts for the remainder of the scene

Condition 2 and 3 - As per the rules, for the same reasons as the blackened aura.

5. The Soul Manifest

Condition 1 - The soul of the victim does not manifest in the diablerists for these diableries.

Condition 2 - If the diablerist has less willpower than the victim, he soul of the victim manifests in the form of the diablerist gaining slight mannerisms upon losing a resisted willpower test at the time of the diablerie. The mannerisms last until the end of the month xp distribution and their specific nature is subject to the ST.

Condition 3 - Upon losing a resisted willpower roll with the victim, the diablerists gains an appropriate flaw (haunted, for example) or possibly a mental / social flaw that the victim had. Giving thr diablerist the nature or demeanor of the victim may also be appropriate. This side effect is mostly permanent and should take great effort to shake off.

6. Humanity Loss

Conditions 1, 2, and 3 are the same as the rules in V20.

Benefits

Perils


Condition 1 Summary
Condition 2 Summary
Condition 3 Summary


And feedback? Terrible idea? Good, but need adjustments?
Edited by Mouse, Jan 28 2015, 08:38 PM.
Posted Image
Bearing of Menace, Black Veins in Aura - Inoffensive to animals, Amputated Forearm

Character Sheet - Character Bio

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sera Andreas
Member Avatar
T'is only a flesh wound!
That looks good to me. I particularly like the idea of splitting up diablerie for the sake of it, and for a more plot driven angle. Has my thumbs up.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cyrus
The walls have text.
I like the idea of splitting up the topic pending how it shows up. I think that'll end up to be a lot easier than trying to make rules that span a ton of different situations and just end up making things more complicated than they need to be. oWoD is pretty bad for that as is, no need to make it worse.

But I kind of don't like condition 1 at all, that much I will say right now.

I briefly talked about that with Mouse earlier in the cbox, it might still be up if anyone cares to see that. The point I was trying to make is that I don't particularly think it's good to have the soul-nomming be something thrown around casually. While some characters DO it casually, which is cool the same way that some are or aren't casually manipulative or whatnot, the act isn't quite so mundane. Personally, I think it'd kind of detract from the story if that stuff is tossed around a lot.

To render my concern down to the most basic point, I feel like diablerie should be a plot point that says a lot about the character, and not something that's written up once and then never referenced again. Kindred are typically connected, and their society is jealous and suspicious. How many could really go missing without anyone noticing, and how would society at large react? I'm not saying don't do it for fun, but I think it should always have some manner of risk and reward. That is, after all, a pretty big facet of the Jyhad and the unlives Kindred live.

In my mind that sounds a lot like 'I don't trust other people to RP maturely', and I really don't mean it like that if that's how it comes across to anyone. Mouse brought that up earlier too, I don't mean that anyone should be forced to smite the sinners or anything. That's not cool and goes against the spirit of the forum, which I happen to like a lot compared to some stuffy places.

I like that diablerie can seriously underline how desperate the Kindred of LA are for any edge they can get, as the three way power struggle drags on. Polite society breaks down, predators get nervous, bad things happen. In any other cammy city that shit would have you on the chopping block ASAP, here, things aren't so black and white. I kind of feel that it shouldn't really be cheapened, there's a lot of good storyline potential here to be explored. This isn't like hunting down an evening meal at the projects, this is apex predator against apex predator - with real gains and real risks at stake.

Conditions 2 and 3 look fine to me, and if everyone else wants to keep the first, I might recommend bumping the bleed off period to 3 or so months. Otherwise you could eat some sucker at the end of the month and be gone with the black streaks in a week or so.

Edit: I forgot to mention as well, I tossed around the idea in the cbox initially of needing to buy the generation dots at the month's end the same way that you do rituals. Did that idea get down voted?
Edited by Cyrus, Jan 29 2015, 10:40 AM.
Notable Traits: Enchanting Voice
Character Bio | Character Sheet | Advancement Thread
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sera Andreas
Member Avatar
T'is only a flesh wound!
I think condition 1 is taking Hinata into consideration, and potentially future characters that diablerie may be a theme with them. Although you're right in that it trivializes diablerie in some ways, on the flip side it also prevents a power creep. I think the two guiding questions for Condition 1 were as follows...

1) Do we want characters who do commit diablerie more than just a couple times have significant advantages? The answer was no.

2) If we are not going to give them advantages, should we penalize them then? The answer was also no.


Looking at the Condition 1 summary, perhaps we can revise the aura rules. After all, if a character is willing to commit wanton diablerie, I doubt they are concerned about their aura. At least in Hinata's case, the taint and soul aspect of it are also already roleplayed out.


As for spending experience on generation, I'd lean against it, as it is a background, and I like the idea of backgrounds as being things to gain or lose as accomplishment or failures. Then again, it's partially because there's already so many things competing for experience, background dots would add just one more thing.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cyrus
The walls have text.
Being new here I'm not super familiar with said character, and I haven't got around to reading that new thread yet. So that being said, I won't speak on what I don't know if everyone else thinks that's a good arrangement for the community. As long as it's RP'd out I'm cool with pretty much anything, I just don't want it to become a throw away shock factor deal.

As far as spending XP goes, I'm cool with not having that. I mentioned it initially due to the power creep issue, people who get involved in more plots have more chances to do it and raise in power exponentially with little real risk. Whereas trying to stake out domains or assume control of financial assets have much more tangible issues associated. Namely, having to keep other parties from snapping them up from you the same way you got them, and the fact that they'll probably be the result of an extended scene or series of scenes.

Whereas, in almost any plot, you'll probably have the chance to kill and eat more vampires and get that sweet boost just as a side bonus - if your character is willing to commit it that is.

So I'm saying I feel like it's easier to get than the equivalent background dots in, say, domain or influence. Outside of dying, you can't really lose it, and the effects are much more permanent and tangible. That's what my idea of paying for it was borne of.
Edited by Cyrus, Jan 29 2015, 11:33 AM.
Notable Traits: Enchanting Voice
Character Bio | Character Sheet | Advancement Thread
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hinata
Member Avatar

Hinata diableries all the time. For multiple reasons, but mainly because she doesn't know its wrong, and thinks she's doing her victims a favour.

I basically feel that actual generation increases should be hard, or at least expensive to get or at least generations lower than 8, access to new disciplines, not as much.
Notable traits: Enchanting Voice, Inoffensive to Animals, Short, Child, Beacon of the Unholy. Appearance 5; Unforgettable face, Graceful.
Sheet link here
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mouse
Member Avatar
O.G. Nos
Sera picked up my reasoning pretty well. I also want to add that I don't feel like it's fair to force players to explore every option that's available in VTM.

With Mouse, for example, I didn't want to touch on the struggle with humanity at all. It's a very common theme for the setting, but I wanted a character who was confident and comfortable with who he is and the monster he has become. I have no interest in exploring that side of the game with that particular character whatsoever.

In the same light, if a player doesn't want their character's diablerie to be a focal point for their writing, I don't think they should be pressured to at all. It's just not what everyone wants to write about, and that's okay. That's why players can make as many characters as they want to; It gives us the chance to play with different themes and writing styles. Personally, I would be super frustrated if I had to write something I wasn't comfortable with.

Aside from that, I'm not even sure how we would enforce it. Unless anyone else has any ideas, the best thing I can think of is use game mechanics to encourage it, and I don't really like that idea because it feels artificial. Again, if I'm playing a character who is down to suck, why shouldn't my character be able to disregard good behavior, or make the decision that the risk is worth it? I just don't think that diablerie is viewed so universally and completely as taboo that it should be important to everyone.

My solution would allow players to approach it from any angle they feel like. They could emphasize it as something socially dangerous and RP the paranoia of being discovered. They could treat it as necessary to attain power, or grapple with it emotionally. In Hinata's case, they could use it to emphasize how alien and abnormal their character is. Or, lest we forgot our Noddists like in Sibyl's case, it could be treated as a logical activity to better explore their potential and master the Curse.

Concerning generation dots being easier to attain than, say, domain or status, I agree. They are easier to get. It's perfectly reasonable to get generation dots from a random opportunity in a thread and still be justified as plausible, whereas getting a dot of status from the outcome of a single scene could seem realistic.

But I'm okay with that. I think it's fair because generation is the only background dot that can come with a tangible drawback or risk. It might be argued that many dots in domain make the character a lucrative target for their enemies, but generation dots are also attractive to diablerists. The difference is that a character doesn't immediately risk anything upon attaining domain dots, whereas generation through diablerie has distinct drawbacks right out of the box.

I proposed that condition 1 diableries only impose the aura for 1 month because I wanted to stay inline with the 'no benefits, no penalties' concept, but I think it wouldn't be a big deal to extend that. As Sera said, Mouse definitely wouldn't give a shit about people knowing he will eat them. XD

Posted Image
Bearing of Menace, Black Veins in Aura - Inoffensive to animals, Amputated Forearm

Character Sheet - Character Bio

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cyrus
The walls have text.
I'm not against doing it, again, I just don't particularly think it should be a throw away type deal. Having said alien outlooks is as big of a part of the setting as trying to maintain humanity in the face of horror and undeath, especially when it comes to the Sabbat and their paths. And there's a lot of cool potential there, too. I definitely see the point you're making in letting people handle it the way they want and put their own spin on it.

On the other hand, I can't help but think cheapening it is still artificial in the same vein that enforcing mechanical limitations is. Think about it like this: Is that something that'd actually go unnoticed and without being act on? Kind of like repeat arson, in that, I think that it'd test suspension of disbelief to have it going on en masse and never becoming an issue. Whether or not the character cares, it's a statement made to the world at large - at least those with auspex 2 or above. This is one of the reasons I don't like the Sabbat's place in the setting for similar reasons, their zany antics don't really feel like they get an appropriate response from the world at large. Does what I'm saying here make sense?

But I see your side of things. I'll concede that point, no need to be paranoid when nothing's warranted it. Only thing I'm trying to stress here is that I'm worried the world won't appropriately bend to how the player's act. I've seen that happen in a lot of games and I don't really care for it. You know? It's an easy line to cross and I shit up a couple of my PnP games like that before.

Concerning the actual dots: More dots in generation don't make you a target the same was as domain does because it isn't able to be read, I believe, outside of that Path of Blood power. Taste of Blood lets you tell that doesn't it? Off hand I can't think of any other ways but I imagine there's a few. I seem to recall diablerists being allowed to be eaten themselves if found out, so maybe it'll all even out.

All I'm saying on that is there's a lot of potential for power creep in that.
Notable Traits: Enchanting Voice
Character Bio | Character Sheet | Advancement Thread
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mouse
Member Avatar
O.G. Nos
Quote:
 
On the other hand, I can't help but think cheapening it is still artificial in the same vein that enforcing mechanical limitations is. Think about it like this: Is that something that'd actually go unnoticed and without being act on? Kind of like repeat arson, in that, I think that it'd test suspension of disbelief to have it going on en masse and never becoming an issue. Whether or not the character cares, it's a statement made to the world at large - at least those with auspex 2 or above. This is one of the reasons I don't like the Sabbat's place in the setting for similar reasons, their zany antics don't really feel like they get an appropriate response from the world at large. Does what I'm saying here make sense?

But I see your side of things. I'll concede that point, no need to be paranoid when nothing's warranted it. Only thing I'm trying to stress here is that I'm worried the world won't appropriately bend to how the player's act. I've seen that happen in a lot of games and I don't really care for it. You know? It's an easy line to cross and I shit up a couple of my PnP games like that before.


I understand what you're saying, although I think the source of that disconnect you feel doesn't inherently stem from the Sabbat (or in this case, the diablerist), but in the way that the world reacts to it. Something that is, traditionally, the purview of the storyteller, and it is just as possible to make similar statements about the world at large with any other sect or action. It just depends on how it is executed.

Being that a play by post forum is as much about collaborate creative writing as it is about role-playing, I'm not sure what should be done on a forum level. We're free to make any statement we want about the world we create together, and you seemed to agree that it isn't fair to tell players what kind of contributions they should make about the world, so do you have any suggestions as to how we can alleviate that concern without also ignoring the other? The best thing I can personally think of is just 'play with people who's style you like', but I'm not sure that is sufficient.

Quote:
 
Concerning the actual dots: More dots in generation don't make you a target the same was as domain does because it isn't able to be read, I believe, outside of that Path of Blood power. Taste of Blood lets you tell that doesn't it? Off hand I can't think of any other ways but I imagine there's a few. I seem to recall diablerists being allowed to be eaten themselves if found out, so maybe it'll all even out.

All I'm saying on that is there's a lot of potential for power creep in that.


I agree is not the same kind of visibility, but I don't think it's necessary to know exactly what generation a character is to come to the conclusion that they are higher in generation. That can be inferred from a lot of circumstances; a position of power, their personal abilities, the way the world react to them. For example, in Straight A Students, Sera was able to quickly determine that both Tete and Katerina are higher in generation without be explicitly told, and Sera didn't even have the OOC benefit of a character sheet to look at. But that's really not my entire point; there are still the other drawbacks I didn't feel necessary to state; The aura, the soul manifesting, etc.

I feel like the potential for power creep is the same. I can think of many instances in which it's just as easy to gain other background dots. I could run a single scene story, Mouse breaking into a VIP's home and blood bonding, bribing, or intimidating (probably that lol) them for an influence dot. Perhaps he takes over a local gang and gains allies. It all depends on how we present the world.

That being said, do you have any suggestions to curb the potential power creep? Ideas to balance generation in your mind are also helpful for us to talk about it.
Posted Image
Bearing of Menace, Black Veins in Aura - Inoffensive to animals, Amputated Forearm

Character Sheet - Character Bio

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cyrus
The walls have text.
Quote blocking is a good idea, I'll use this.

Quote:
 
I understand what you're saying, although I think the source of that disconnect you feel doesn't inherently stem from the Sabbat (or in this case, the diablerist), but in the way that the world reacts to it. Something that is, traditionally, the purview of the storyteller, and it is just as possible to make similar statements about the world at large with any other sect or action. It just depends on how it is executed.


Yeah definitely, it isn't just a soul-nomming thing, it's just the first issue for it that really sprang to mind because it's the most common to happen and doesn't really follow the 'vampires can run interference and keep it off the news' deal that the aforementioned arson does - being it is a wholly Vampiric concept. I guess we could say it'd also be the equivalent of dealing with demons. There should probably be some kind of backlash against it, that's the price of doing it, both out of game (for benefits) and in (for IC purposes). Or breaching masquerade, or anything really.

Just that Sabbat related deals tend to be more common due to how they operate. And I'm all for that, I just don't want there to never be a reaction for it. Making waves stops being so fun when nothing comes as a result. I don't think it should be cripplingly punishing or anything unfair like that, but it can be fun to crawl out of unexpected downward spirals, as well as ride the good times. Living worlds are great stuff, after all.

Quote:
 
Being that a play by post forum is as much about collaborate creative writing as it is about role-playing, I'm not sure what should be done on a forum level. We're free to make any statement we want about the world we create together, and you seemed to agree that it isn't fair to tell players what kind of contributions they should make about the world, so do you have any suggestions as to how we can alleviate that concern without also ignoring the other? The best thing I can personally think of is just 'play with people who's style you like', but I'm not sure that is sufficient.


Cliquishness is typically what makes play by posts die, so I'd hope that doesn't happen. My proposed solution is just a self moderation thing. Keep it tasteful and not overdone so as to stretch believability. Mechanics should usually be used to encourage that, but not force it. In this instance I don't think that'd be needed since this isn't a gigantic forum full of That Guys. Just need to set what the acceptable middle ground is.

Quote:
 
I feel like the potential for power creep is the same. I can think of many instances in which it's just as easy to gain other background dots. I could run a single scene story, Mouse breaking into a VIP's home and blood bonding, bribing, or intimidating (probably that lol) them for an influence dot. Perhaps he takes over a local gang and gains allies. It all depends on how we present the world.


I think that'd be kind of cool, actually. But I also think that social and mental encounters are a lot more challenging by and large than combat ones are, and should definitely come with rewards when handled right. Terse negotiations, in my mind, require a lot more planning and careful thought than gunfights do. There's a reason shovelheads exist, and not shovelsalesmen. Also the fact I mentioned prior wherein you're basically guaranteed to be able to find vamps to eat along the way for any other quest you do. All your examples ARE the focus of a quest, hell, you might get to eat the vampire leading of a gang and get the best of both worlds - wouldn't be beyond belief.

Going along with that, the rewards gained in those examples aren't very balanced in my mind. That vampire you ate can't heel face turn on you, or be counter bonded/bribed/intimidated by another clan later, or killed in combat and losing the dots anyway. Not excepting that soul fragments parts, which can be a pretty big deal I admit.

I know that's something I keep bringing up, and it isn't because I'm ignoring anything said about it. I just really want to stress that point, with more detail on what I mean below.

Quote:
 
That being said, do you have any suggestions to curb the potential power creep? Ideas to balance generation in your mind are also helpful for us to talk about it.


Only real idea I had to put on the table was having to pay for it. Have to remember that most of those background dots are transient, the rules say that themselves. Player actions can both gain you them or lose 'em. Generation's the exception. That's the big reason I was of the opinion that it should have some price attached.

It's the VtM version of buying gold. It's value is constant and raises as you get more of it, it's a safe investment in that you can't be shorn of it, and it makes your character all around better due to bp/b per turn and stats boosts. Best of all I wouldn't say it's super hard to get either, mentioned earlier, there'll always be vamps you want to fight around that you can nibble on.

What generation would you say most vampires tend to be, since PC's begin at 13th? Long as it's kept realistic (I hate using that in reference to a setting with vampires, but stick with me) and everyone you eat can't bump you up a generation, I think that'd be okay. If having to find, hunt down, and then eat progressively higher generation vampires is an actual extended chore, then I'm much more amicable to the idea. Same as finding a gang, and coercing them to help you. In fact that might be kind of cool for a character goal.

The opening proposal had me kind of worried that we'd play gen and diablerie loose and fast, and that's where my concern for creep opened up.
Notable Traits: Enchanting Voice
Character Bio | Character Sheet | Advancement Thread
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Amadu Abubakar Ibrahim
Member Avatar

I think I have a good idea where you're coming from and that we just disagree on some points, so I think we should start bracketing for solutions we can both get on board with, if that's okay. I don't mind discussing the other points, but I feel like hashing that out isn't necessary to refine the proposed system and I'd like to prioritize that first.

Quote:
 
Cliquishness is typically what makes play by posts die, so I'd hope that doesn't happen. My proposed solution is just a self moderation thing. Keep it tasteful and not overdone so as to stretch believability. Mechanics should usually be used to encourage that, but not force it. In this instance I don't think that'd be needed since this isn't a gigantic forum full of That Guys. Just need to set what the acceptable middle ground is.


I think this is totally fair for the state of the forum, right now. How does it sound if we post a general thread about collaborative world building and finding a consensus with it? One of the talking points could be typical expectations of appropriate reactions to characters, and diablerie could be an example of it.

Quote:
 
What generation would you say most vampires tend to be, since PC's begin at 13th? Long as it's kept realistic (I hate using that in reference to a setting with vampires, but stick with me) and everyone you eat can't bump you up a generation, I think that'd be okay. If having to find, hunt down, and then eat progressively higher generation vampires is an actual extended chore, then I'm much more amicable to the idea.


I would imagine NPCs with 5 dots of generation are as common as those with 5 dots of any other background, and NPCs with 0 dots of generation are as common as those with 0 dots in any other background. :)

How do you feel about keeping this line of condition 2:

A generation increase is granted up to a limit of 8th generation. ,

but changing this line from condition 3, specifically the part about ST's discretion:

The character may advance more than one generation and may exceed the 8th generation limit as per the storyteller's discretion.

In this way,

1. generation (or backgrounds in general) isn't easily gained from solo threads and meets the story reward criteria already established

2. most Generation decreases from diablerie opportunities is valued the same as in character creation (it is and limited to 5 dots without very special circumstances, of which the specifics are to be decided.
Posted Image
Appearance 4: Dignified
Character Sheet - Ritual Sheet - Character Bio
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cyrus
The walls have text.
Quote:
 
I think I have a good idea where you're coming from and that we just disagree on some points, so I think we should start bracketing for solutions we can both get on board with, if that's okay. I don't mind discussing the other points, but I feel like hashing that out isn't necessary to refine the proposed system and I'd like to prioritize that first.


Sounds like a good plan.

Quote:
 
I think this is totally fair for the state of the forum, right now. How does it sound if we post a general thread about collaborative world building and finding a consensus with it? One of the talking points could be typical expectations of appropriate reactions to characters, and diablerie could be an example of it.


I certainly wouldn't mind a world building thread. Particularly because then a couple of useful specifics could be hashed out for making and advancing other plots. IE, what regions are owned by what Sects, that's something I've been seriously pondering on.

Quote:
 
I would imagine NPCs with 5 dots of generation are as common as those with 5 dots of any other background, and NPCs with 0 dots of generation are as common as those with 0 dots in any other background.


I see.

As well, I agree with your proposed amendment to the initial condition breakout. That sounds pretty good to me.
Notable Traits: Enchanting Voice
Character Bio | Character Sheet | Advancement Thread
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
Learn More · Register for Free
« Previous Topic · Questions & Feedback · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Toggle Chatbox
Top RP SitesRPGfixNo Books of Men: A Mage University RP