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| Democratic People's Republic of (North) Korea; Understanding the DPRK | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 16 2006, 07:31 AM (125 Views) | |
| Comrade Martin | Jul 16 2006, 07:31 AM Post #1 |
Make-Believe Man
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I originally made this as part of a MySpace commentary on the DPRK in a Democrat group. Difficulties in posting made me give up on the issue for the time being. However, given to the discussion on the DPRK in the Israel thread, I figured actually making a topic for it would be a good idea. With some modifications, I've made this presentable to you all here. All statements can be backed up as they are pointed out. I didn't feel like harvesting links tonight. ----- DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF (NORTH) KOREA Alright, before I begin, I'd like to make a few informative statements. First of all, I am a Communist. Whatever connotation you have to that political ideology you might have to cast off, because I can almost definently tell you its probably wrong, especially if your sources are schools or the media. Secondly, I am a member of the Korean Friendship Association (KFA), an organization based in the Democratic People's Republic of (North) Korea, or DPRK for short, dedicated to international solidarity with the DPRK in its struggle against Imperialism and for a united Korea. Does that invalidate everything I have to say here? As reasonable people, I hope you don't think so. With that introduction down, I'll now share my comments on the Korean nuclear missle affair as well as the entire Korean situation in general. I'll lay down some general facts first. NORTH KOREA IS AN OPPRESSIVE POLICE STATE. False. North Korea has a broad range of civil rights garunteed in their Constitution. Simply because CNN and FOX say it doesn't make it true. Yes, they do have a large military, but then again so does Russia and the United States. The people of North Korea firmly believe that the military is important to their freedom, as a history of bad relations with the United States (which has thousands of soldiers on the southern side of the border between North and South) would seem to justify. Koreans have been known to say to American journalists that they've seen what happened in Iraq, and they won't let America torture, rape, and murder them in the same fashion (roughly 100,000 Iraqis have died simply due to lack of medicine, food, and clean water alone since the first Gulf War not including civilian deaths due to combat, and the Koreans are fully aware of this). They will fight to defend themselvees, and denying them the right to self-defense in the face of the world's (proven) greatest aggressor, the United States of America, which they are not on good terms with (and for good reason), is a basic affront to the rights of people everywhere to self-determination and defense. NORTH KOREA STARVES IT PEOPLE. False. North Korea, since Korea was divided, has had the raw end of the deal in terms of arable land. Being highly mountainous, there are very few areas that any food can be grown in, with hillsides being forced to be cultivized as part of the Korean FIve Year Plans to feed the people. The DPRK has successfully tested a number of important breakthroughs in the field of agricultural technology as part of their Centrally Planned Economy's desire to help the people. If the government wanted to starve them all, it wouldn't put so much money towards agriculture and new methods of food production. Starving people only hurts the economy, angers the people, and thus is an all around negative for everybody. It's really common sense. On the other hand, the South was always the breadbasket of the Choson Empire which was invaded by Japan, colonized, and then liberated by Soviet troops and an agreement with Japan to release all claim to the peninsula. The North became the Soviets' allies, fellow allies of which also had food problems (being mostly tundra and historically prone to poor weather, excepting East Germany, Poland, and the Ukrainian part of the U.S.S.R.) and thus couldn't expect much assistance in that form. China, under the leadership of Mao Zedong, solved their historic food problems by the 1970's and became an important ally for Korean food importation afterwards, but lack of monetary resources have been a constant problem for the North and thus have disabled them from buying enough, having to rely strongly on their own domestic production resources with only a 3 month growing season (compared to double and sometimes triple that in the U.S. by comparison). Luckily, a surge in crop production (largely thanks to scientific research enabling numerous new techniques for food production) satisfied the nation's food needs and the next estimate shows more increases. This, not to mention abuse of political influence, led to the shutoff of the "aid" organizations you might have heard about sometime last year which were using their influence as providers of food to bribe and manipulate Korean officials. NORTH KOREA WANTS TO NUKE US. False. Kim Jong Il has made it plainly clear that Korea desires good relations both with the South and even the United States, but simply wants an equal footing. As it stands, the United States could nuke the DPRK hundreds of thousands of times, and they could do nothing to stop us. We have enough nukes to destroy the world three times over. They just want at least one. With the actions of the U.S. in the world in recent years militarily (I.E. Iraq, Afghanistan), not to mention adding them to the "outposts of terror" list, as well as the "axis of terror" list, and the cancellation of all agreements made with the DPRK under the Clinton administration, North Korea can't possibly expect us to really want to work with them on an equal footing unless they prove to us they can have an equal footing. To expect them not to want such an adequate self-defense is an insult to them, and common sense. BUT NORTH KOREA IS A DICTATORSHIP, HOW CAN WE TRUST THEM? North Korea is not a dictatorship. The Korean Workers' Party is the leading party in North Korea (40% of the population of the DPRK is a member of the KWP, and it is not the only legal party, I might add, with several smaller parties in existance including some religious ones [also dispelling the rumor that religion is illegal there]), and has a system of internal democracy in addition to its participation in the democratic traditions of the DPRK via the Supreme People's Assembly (the equivalent of our Congress). All legislation and executive decisions go through a series of democratic bodies such as the aforementioned Supreme People's Assembly (which is their top legislative body). Kim Jong Il was elected after his father's death in 1998 by the KWP to be something similar to Vice-President. His father was seen as a brilliant man by the Korean people, who had successfully moved away from the Soviet bloc as well as the Chinese bloc and of course maintained a firm stance against the world's Imperialists (U.S.A., U.K., etc.) and built a very strong and free nation. So much so, in fact, that he was declared Eternal President soon before his death, although that position has been stripped of all actual power (sensibly, of course, considering his death) with the line of succession going to Kim Jong Il, effectively holding a position similar to Vice-President. There was a very public display of thousands of Koreans in P'yongyang when he died, and I've even seen the KCNA broadcast of that event (and can actually link you to it if you want). He was a beloved man, and his son is seen as following in his footsteps. It is a great insult to speak poorly of Kim Jong Il in the DPRK (affectionately known as the "Dear Leader"), but by no means is it illegal as you might have been told (although mass propaganda campaigns [like polluting streets with hundreds of leaflets] are punishable usually by fines [for pollution and vandalism], I believe). IF NORTH KOREA IS SO GREAT, WHY CAN'T ITS PEOPLE LEAVE? Actually, it is possible to leave, but the process is complicated. One cannot legally move to the South or China due to restrictions *from* both countries, but filing paperwork with both the North Korean government (since the state owns all property, you must file what you are taking with you if anything with the remainder being resold by the government and whatnot) and Chinese or South Korean government is necessary. Most of the "refugees" you hear about are actually just people who left without filing paperwork, which is illegal but extraditions are usually not called for, meaning they don't care if you do it but if you do, don't expect to be welcomed back with open arms. Most North Koreans see emigration as an insult to their nation, and would not leave given the choice. Most people who leave do so because of their disrespect for their own nation, and thus their accounts are usually extremely biased and usually nonsense (a famous dissident made tons of money by going around South Korea making up obvious nonsense, such as that there were 50,000 North Korean spies working in the South - a claim that ended his popularity among the idiot savants that paid attention to him and people like him). DOESN'T NORTH KOREA HAVE A GIANT GULAG SYSTEM? No. In fact, of all the claims made before the advent of satellite photography, not one shred of evidence ever existed to the effect of such a system. Indeed, satellites have proven these rumors to be false. There are not nor have been any massive GULAG systems of any kind, and if anyone has any proof of such a thing that satellite technology has missed, feel free to share. Executions, similarly, all occur judicially. Extra-judicial executions are highly illegal in North Korea, and severely punishable for obvious reasons. IF THE SOUTH THINKS NORTH KOREANS ARE CRAZY, WHY SHOULD WE THINK ANY DIFFERENTLY? Some weeks ago, a poll was taken in the South regarding what nation they saw as the greatest threat to their own. The United States came in first with 39%, and North Korea with 36%. While even though South Koreans are told daily by their government and by the United States to hate and fear the North, more of them fear the U.S. itself. This could be accreditable to the construction of the Korean wall, which is longer than the one in Berlin, constructed by the U.S. military, and forcibly dividing their people, which has symbolized U.S. oppression in the South for decades. Furthermore, it can be accreditable to the frequent charges of rape that U.S. soldiers have been receiving, and the recent case of a group of schoolgirls being run down by an American APB. I will note, however, that this was before the missile tests by the North, and South Koreans may now be scared thanks to the media hype. BUT DIDN'T NORTH KOREA INVADE SOUTH KOREA FOR NO REASON IN THE KOREAN WAR? Historical evidence actually shows that the military dictatorship in the South at that time was actually trying to scare the North in to believing an invasion was imminent, with troops and other armed officers often purposely crossing the border. This terrorist effort to provoke a war succeeded. Kim Il Sung, President of the DPRK, wrote in letters to Chairman Mao Tse Tung of China and General Secretary Joseph Stalin about his fears of a Southern Korean and U.S. invasion (which spy reports said was potentially imminent). The official decision of President Kim Il Sung was to invade pre-emptively. The Soviet Union refused to assist either side, most probably because General Secretary Stalin did not believe that both sides were in the wrong for what they did or were doing. Although logistical support from the U.S.S.R. was present. Korea was nearly unified before the U.S. sent in marines (as opposed to the army which had been failing poorly) and attempted to overtake the North as well. Chairman Mao called for volunteer soldiers to assist an organized defense of the DPRK, and this wave of soldiers from the People's Republic of China restored peace for the time being, establishing a new border and a de-militarized zone between the two nations, North and South Korea. CONCLUSION I think I've responded to most of the usual arguements I hear commonly about the DPRK. I can only ask, at this stage, that you ask yourself each time you hear one of these silly sounding stories about the DPRK (or even watch the stupid documentaries like the one I saw on CNN a couple days ago [see my blog entriesfor more information]), "does this claim even make a shred of sense?" I've never heard a travelogue from all of the people I've talked to who tried to be objective about it that confirmed a single outrageous claim made by our media, and I challenge all of you to perhaps request membership in the KFA as a means of learning more and getting involved or seeing about special permission to go with a KFA delegation and see things for yourself. Granted, I haven't been there (I simply don't have the money) but I do intend to go as soon as possible. It would be funny if you ALL went, just because of the irony of CNN's and FOX's "secret state" nonsense, where they pretend its impossible to go there. Any questions, comments, or further claims you've heard that you'd like me to clarify or dispel can be made here or directed to me via a private message, E-Mail at Marx2Martin@aol.com, or contact via any messaging service. Peace! |
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| U-ropa | Jul 16 2006, 08:48 AM Post #2 |
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Unregistered
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Christ, you are perhaps completely bonkers. What's worse you are an apologist for a dictatorship... Just because North Korea pays lip service to democracy does not make it a democracy. Are you suggesting that if one of these fringe democratic parties were to stand in an election and had a viable chance of winning, the existing state apparatus wouldn't purge them quicker then you can say - "we appointed a dead man supreme leader of our country 'cos we're completely mental"...? And oh my, what advances they've made in agriculture...perhaps, if they were so concerned in feeding their people, they could divert the huge resources the state is investing in the production of fissile material and ballistic missiles into more successful food programs. That is unless the state doesn’t benefit from holding the population hostage by famine whilst it preserves its longevity by de-stabilising the region. :rolleyes2: What’s more, pray tell; why is it that North Koreans illegally migrate every year? I'm sure as a self-proclaimed Marxist you have some tenuous grasp of economics, if this is so lets us just pause on the role incentives play in their migration - I mean it couldn't possibly be that people don't want to live in a starvation racked, police state - could it? And what is the rate of emigration into North Korea? I'll let you google that one. |
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| Comrade Martin | Jul 16 2006, 09:21 AM Post #3 |
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Make-Believe Man
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U-ropa,
That is highly subject to opinion. I've been legally sane for quite some time now.
If you have any evidence that the DPRK is a dictatorship you are welcome to present it.
Of course not. Actions speak far louder than words.
And what do you suppose would happen if a fringe Socialist party were to do the same in the United States? Allende in Chile saw firsthand what democracy means when it doesn't go the CIA's way. And in any event, Eternal President Kim Il Sung's position is entirely formal by their Constitution, since it obviously would be senseless to have the leadership of the country under his authority... lol. But seriously speaking, Kim Jong Il serves as the de facto head of state as Kim Il Sung is permanently incapacitated. Unless of course he rises from the dead, but given to reality no one will need to worry about that.
The same might be said for a variety of nations trying to hold a self-defense budget while trying also to meet domestic needs. Dan Rather even commented on CNN one night that nearly every person he met genuinely believed that their military was essential to their survival. Indeed, their status as technically at war with the United States and the recent Imperialistic actions by the U.S. and co. serve only to strengthen the resolve of the militarist wing of the Supreme People's Assembly. I agree with you completely that the budget is extravagant and really needs to be cutback, which is why I am very glad to see an adequate self-defense measure being constructed, as the Taepodong's will allow the DPRK to make its defense budget smaller by relying on the missile's value as a deterrent. Operating on the Mutually Assured Destruction scenario, even if it wouldn't be a TOTAL annihilation of the U.S., but it is enough to make the U.S. think twice before harming the Korean people.
Historically, lack of food has served as an impetus for overthrow, not as a means of control. If anything, the DPRK's goal is to MAXIMIZE food production in order to make citizens contented and unwilling to take up arms. A majority of the people of the DPRK actively support their government, and I find it hard to believe that they feel as if they are at the mercy of their government, in which they are very actively participating.
Or it could be simply that they feel that there are better opportunities elseware, perhaps so they can also send money back to help their families and - by virtue of using that money for further exchange - their nation. More people emigrate from Mexico in to the U.S. every year than from the DPRK to China, even though its illegal in both nations (and in fact, the CIA World Factbook lists North Korean emigration at 0%, as such instances of actual emigration are indeed rare, although they do occur, while Mexico's is roughly 4 emigrants per 1000 people). Is Mexico a starvation racked police state? Not by any means. And in fact, most emigrants from Mexico to the U.S. seek exactly what I said at the beginning of this paragraph, " they feel that there are better opportunities elseware, perhaps so they can also send money back to help their families and - by virtue of using that money for further exchange - the nation." I even saw on one of CNN's documentaries on North Korea that a former citizen of the DPRK now living in China said that was exactly what she was doing, and how surprised she was to see beggars in the outside world. She's done her best to hold a number of jobs just to get the money together in China that - while little in China - can be more in the DPRK, where some basic essential things tend to be devalued for more people to have access to them that in China can run much more expensively, given to the Chinese economy being very much profit oriented now rather than people oriented. |
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| Kozh Heol | Jul 16 2006, 10:09 AM Post #4 |
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Unregistered
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I'm going to have to agree with Uropa here. You cannot defend such a dictatorship just because their "idealogy" fits in with yours which is communism. Take one look at North Korea and you will not see communism being put into effect. It is a way of controlling the masses "sacrifice yourself for the state" malarky. The people are starving, no one is allowed out the country and more money is spent on weapons then food for the population. There is such a iron grip on the population you could possibly compare it to your "oh so great" Stalin. Summing up- North Korea is not a communist state although it claims to be one so don't jump on the band wagon just because there is a red flag flying and workers shouting "people of the state we are going to the gulag for the good of the state". |
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| Comrade Martin | Jul 16 2006, 11:33 AM Post #5 |
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Make-Believe Man
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Kozh Heol,
If you read my introduction, I make it clear that I do not support the DPRK based on my political beliefs whatsoever, and do not use my political beliefs as justification for the realities of the DPRK. The purpose of this document was to dispel mistruths, and I encourage you to read it. And again, if anyone has any evidence that Kim Jong Il somehow became leader undemocratically, I am open to it.
Did I claim otherwise?
But there are reasons why they are having food difficulties (starvation is a stretch, but undernourishment is a problem), and there are reasons why they have a high defense budget. And very legitamite and understandable ones.
Most Russians today see Stalin as the greatest leader in their history. Does that absolve him of his crimes? No. Almost every citizen of the DPRK truly believes in Kim Jong Il, and does that absolve him of his crimes? No. But we must criticize them and oppose them on the particular issues surrounding them, and not invent reasons to disapprove of them. All lies must be shattered, and we must oppose them for their actual mistakes and malicious actions.
And just because they claim to be a Communist state doesn't invalidate every achievement or make them directly accreditable to the problems they are having. We must explore the reasons and the reality, and set the record straight accordingly. Wanton criticism without base in reality only leads to problematic conclusions. If we must disapprove of them, let it be for the right reasons. Red Factions II in the RLA once told me about his experiences in the DPRK. Yes, there is a large cult of personality around Kim Jong Il, but that doesn't make him undemocratic or tyrannical. It's a problem, but it does not immediately make irrelevent the achievements of their nation and people. He explained how many "facts" about the DPRK as portrayed by the West are very obviously wrong as soon as you get there. I say, let's look at the facts, let's review accounts and experiences, and get to the bottom of what is really going on. And what the hell, let's go there! There are many opportunities for travel to the DPRK, especially through the KFA. I encourage EVERYONE to go at least once and see things for yourself. Don't accept what you are told by a bunch of big whig media personnel and journalists. Accept what makes sense and what is realistic, and most particularly, logical and objectively deduced. Remember that for political, economic, and especially class reasons, much of what you hear is inherently tuned in a biased manner. Why we accept it is part of the sheeplike groupthink of the world today. It must be broken, and we must liberate our minds to higher planes. |
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| The Ruescher Empire | Jul 16 2006, 02:30 PM Post #6 |
Buh
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I must say this reminds me of the West's view of the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Making it seem far worse then it ever was. But though i do not agree with the political ideology of North Korea, i do find they are doing the best they can for their people. And CM i must say that was an interesting read. |
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| Comrade Martin | Jul 16 2006, 02:41 PM Post #7 |
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Make-Believe Man
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The Ruescher Empire,
My sentiments exactly.
Thank you. I've put a lot of effort and research in to the issue, working with doctors in various fields of economic and social science as well as consulting numerous organizations, news agencies, and sometimes even the government of the DPRK itself. I am dedicated to accuracy in such matters, and to as unbiased a report as possible. |
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| Old Zertaxia | Jul 16 2006, 02:52 PM Post #8 |
The Ex-Speaker
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Comrade Martin, That is indeed a very interesting editorial. I might even be inclined to believe some of it, if you had experience in North Korea yourself. But, the thing is, how are your sources any better than the rest of us little people? What I mean is, none of us here have first-hand experience of living conditions and political climates in North Korea, right? So we are stuck with second-hand (or worse) sources. We are in no position to invalidate (any) sources ourselves, not having that all important first-hand knowledge, so I think its rather rash of you to discount one second hand source and give us another one that is 'right'-er because you say so. |
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| Comrade Martin | Jul 16 2006, 03:26 PM Post #9 |
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Make-Believe Man
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Old Zertaxia,
See my last post. I've worked with Dr. Timothy Beal of New Zealand (authoring several books on the DPRK and publishing the regular P'yongyang Report), numerous members of the Korean Friendship Association (many of whom have been to the DPRK and some information from them is available on the KFA website's forums which you may read without joining), I've read a number of first-hand accounts on blogspots and travelogues, I've watched numerous documentaries and listened to many reporters from all the big media outlets, and spoken with Red Factions II in the RLA, who has also been to the DPRK himself. Purportedly, Cassi, the leader of Eurasia, has also been there, and she actually provided a lot of information that I had no idea about but that she proved was true to me at the time, so I'm not sure if you'd want to consult her but you could do that as well. Believe me, I wouldn't just parade around making stuff up. If half of the stuff about the DPRK I've heard about were true I'd have NEVER sought to defend it for ANY reason. Take Saddam Hussein. There was UNDOUBTABLE PROOF of his genuine evil, and nobody sought to defend that guy. But with the DPRK, we find ourself hearing the same stories but with very little to no evidence to corroborate any of it. If the media thinks that since they said it before and it was true that they can say it again and it doesn't matter if its true or not since people will blindly believe them, I say they've got another thing coming. |
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| Jonewest | Jul 16 2006, 10:55 PM Post #10 |
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I gave up on MySpace blogging, stupid thing would never work for me right :(. |
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| mesatecala1 | Jul 16 2006, 11:15 PM Post #11 |
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Green
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"Indeed, satellites have proven these rumors to be false. There are not nor have been any massive GULAG systems of any kind, and if anyone has any proof of such a thing that satellite technology has missed, feel free to share. Executions, similarly, all occur judicially. Extra-judicial executions are highly illegal in North Korea, and severely punishable for obvious reasons." This is totally false, as satellites have infacted proved the contrary. And I have provided images from an irrefutable source. If you dont think we don't have anything on this regime, you're dead wrong. If you think this regime is respecting human rights, you're dead wrong. If you think this regime is not similiar to Saddam Hussein's regime, you're dead wrong. Martin, we need to stop listening to this mindless dribble. There is evidence and accounts from defectors of the rampant abuses occurring in the DPRK. These are well documented, and backed up. "Forced Labor camps in North Korea came into being after World War II when Japanese colonial rule over the region ended. Japanese collaborators, landowners, and remaining families of those who fled to the South were among the first prisoners. It is reported that North Korea is running as many as six different political and forced labor camps. The North Korean government denies the existence of such camps, and little information about the prison camps can be found. What the world knows has been taken from accounts by former guards and prisoners who have defected. Satellite imagery of alleged prison locations show no distinctive markings. The camps are not surrounded by walls, but reportedly, the prison camps encompass areas as large as Washington DC. Condemned by the international human rights community, most of these camps are located in central North Korea far away from Russian and Chinese borders in rugged mountain terrain. There is speculation as to the exact numbers of prisoners being held in these facilities, but it is believed to number in the hundred thousands. Accounts from former prisoners and guards indicate forced laborers mine coal, make uniforms for the military, work in reprocessing factories, and farm. Reportedly, the prisoners themselves, are treated harshly. The prisoners are fed a diet of corn powder, cabbage leafs, and salt. Both defectors and human rights groups assert prisoners at North Korean camps are routinely beaten and used as a free economic tool by the regime." http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world...eryong-camp.htm Images: http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world...n-camps-map.gif Satellite Imagery: http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world...rk-camp22_2.jpg This same regime trafficks children. http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2004/33191.htm The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea (DPRK) is a source country for persons trafficked for the purposes of forced labor and sexual exploitation. The DPRK operates forced-labor prison camps to punish criminals and repatriated North Koreans. Thousands of North Korean men, women and children are forced to work and often perish under conditions of slavery. Many nations provide humanitarian assistance and food to the North Korean people, but deteriorating economic conditions continue to pressure thousands into fleeing to China, Russia and Mongolia. The North Koreans' illegal status in other nations increases their vulnerability to trafficking schemes and sexual and physical abuse. The Government of North Korea does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking and is not making efforts to do so. The Government does not recognize trafficking as a problem and imposes slave-like labor conditions on its prisoners. ---- So please before you defend this ghastly regime, you better have some evidence of its "goodness". :angry: |
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| Comrade Martin | Jul 21 2006, 07:28 AM Post #12 |
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Make-Believe Man
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mesatecala1,
LOL, where?! I've seen the DPRK with satellite imagery before. There's no prison camps and there never will be. Stop making up things!
Flaunt it if ya got it.
North Korea > Israel
It isn't. At all.
Okay. So let's see your evidence... I'll highlight important parts.
Okay, so first off, forced labor camps for prisoners were established after WWII. Perfectly acceptable. After almost every war, the succeeding nations put their war criminals in to prisons and oftentimes, especially back then, forced labor was the most acceptable manner of dealing with them. Essentially, they were productive prisons. I fully support forced labor for prisoners. Next, we have the fact that they may be running at least six such camps. Six? With a population of about 22 million, six forced labor prisons is a perfectly nominal number. That's one prison every 3.4 million people. Calling them political prisons is the scary way of saying state-operated (I.E. politically managed). There's no proof that they have even one political prisoner. And lastly, they can't even see any such prisons. They claim they exist with no walls... Wait a second, no walls? How do they keep them inside? Magic? I guess North Korea is so evil it uses sorcery to imprison people. Obviously, your source is not only biased but lacks evidence in the extreme.
That's a lot of prisoners for only six prisons all without walls. Or did they forget about that part in their analysis?
Making uniforms, mining, reprocessing, and farming? THAT is their great torturous camp? And given to food problems, those prisoners ought to stop their whiny Terracotta Pie complaining since at least they're GETTING food. And they're PRISONERS. Who cares how harshly they get treated? Most Arab countries chop limbs off or kill them. I'd say the DPRK does them a favor. I think out prison system, free food, bed, books, and T.V. all the time is horrible. We should be condemning the U.S. and other western nations of not being harsh ENOUGH.
lol, I can do that too: http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uscampsfd1.png HOLY Giant Caterpillars Batman, WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF CAMPS!
That just looks like a town to me, man. But then, I guess I could do that too: http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nyccampswo0.jpg As you can see, New York City is a tyrannical dictatorship with prison camps. Also a few child rape centers and killing fields, hidden within its forest of hotels. The proof is irrefutable, because I used satellite images and pointed out random structures and labeled them.
A publication of the U.S. government, which is inherently opposed to the DPRK. Wonderful objective source. One might note: A.) Baseless claims. B.) Lack of proof. C.) North Koreans in China or other nations cannot be helped by the North Korean government because it is outside their jurisdiction. I thought you said that North Korea was a closed off, isolated state? How do SEX traffickers get in there? You can't have it both ways on that. They're either an isolated state or one so open that sex traffickers have no difficulty travelling in and out. Make up yer mind! |
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| mesatecala1 | Jul 21 2006, 10:54 AM Post #13 |
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Green
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I can't argue with someone so ignorant as you. You know what? Don't contact me on AIM anymore. I'm blocking you for good. If you really think the DPRK has a better human rights record then Israel, you're just... out of this world. Insane. Wrong too. You completely disregard testimony by those who defect from his regime. You're just another crazy Stalinist apologist. You're a nut. |
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| Love and Honour | Jul 21 2006, 12:15 PM Post #14 |
Yes Sir; No Sir: 3 Bags Full Sir
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| Comrade Martin | Jul 22 2006, 02:47 PM Post #15 |
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Make-Believe Man
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You blocked me on AIM too?! Damn, you get serious about this whole "end debate" thing.  Most of the defectors I hear from are very light about their criticisms. I mean, you'd think they'd be pretty negative but they're pretty light on the whole negativity thing, especially for defectors! And you know, a lot of your (and the U.S. government's) criticisms are the same as they were for Albania. And you know what? It was a closed off state too. And when Hoxha died and they opened up, we found out a lot of that crap wasn't true. Well, I guess debates are over. I'll just sit here and play my deep jazz music, waiting for another opponent. 
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| mesatecala1 | Jul 22 2006, 06:47 PM Post #16 |
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Green
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Well you hear wrongly as they do testify about slave camps. They are not "pretty light" about being negative. :rolleyes: Stop changing the reality to fit yor own needs. I mean come on... you can't be right all the time (nor are you). A lot of what the US government said about the one late Romanian dictator were true. A lot of what the US government said about Saddam Hussein was true (about his human rights record). And in this regard, what is being said about North Korea is true (based on substantiated evidence such as satellite imagery and witness accounts). |
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| Comrade Martin | Jul 23 2006, 03:26 AM Post #17 |
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Make-Believe Man
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mesatecala1,
Show me one. I'll give you a counter one.
Yeah, and there was MOUNTAINS of proof for both. North Korea is similar to Albania (I.E. a closed state), not Romania and Iraq (I.E. very open by comparison).
All of my information is provided by doctors and journalists, as well as colleagues in the Korean Friendship Association. |
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| mesatecala1 | Jul 23 2006, 05:10 AM Post #18 |
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Green
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North Korea is not similiar to Albania. Two different systems, two different geopolitical considerations. I think Kim Jong Il is more closely related to Hussein and that one late Romanian dictator. I have overwhelming evidence for my position that collapses your beliefs, yet again. |
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| Comrade Martin | Jul 23 2006, 10:37 PM Post #19 |
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Make-Believe Man
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mesatecala1,
North Korea and Albania both have/had centralized planned economies (unlike Saddam Hussein) and very closed off societies (unlike Nicolae Ceuceau). In fact, North Korea is BETTER in many measures than Albania was believed to be (multiple political parties, religion is fully legal) yet Albania turned out to be better than it was said to be, and thus the DPRK is most probably similar to that situation. Let me try to imitate your closing remarks. Once again everything I said is undoubtedly true and yours are wrong, wrong, false, bad, and wrong. Additionally, you are wrong as I proved. Not to mention your incorrectness, which is opposed to my correctness. |
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| Love and Honour | Jul 29 2006, 10:39 PM Post #20 |
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Yes Sir; No Sir: 3 Bags Full Sir
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5:53 PM Jul 13