Speaker of the People's Assembly and World Assembly Delegate Pidgeon Island Members of the Committee TBA World Assembly Delegate Angusp (aka Bodegraven) High General of the GRADF Joe Bobs |
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| Alexander Litvinenko RIP | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 24 2006, 11:46 PM (422 Views) | |
| Love and Honour | Nov 24 2006, 11:46 PM Post #1 |
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Yes Sir; No Sir: 3 Bags Full Sir
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Is Putin responsible for this, most awful death? |
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| Northern Chittowa | Nov 26 2006, 10:25 PM Post #21 |
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The Grand Old Duke
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Always knew Willy Wonker was a commie |
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| Dupitable | Nov 26 2006, 10:29 PM Post #22 |
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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It's a Team America quote. |
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| Pidgeon Island | Nov 26 2006, 10:45 PM Post #23 |
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Not so stale.
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He always seemed like a paedophile to me... His name is suggestive enough, put him next to children, they just don't go together. What was Roald Dahl thinking? |
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| Arov | Nov 26 2006, 11:16 PM Post #24 |
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Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
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...let alone the Ukraine was the most fertile area in the USSR yet somehow suffered most from the famine. And I know people who lived in the Soviet Union, Martin. There was NOTHING to eat according to all of them! |
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| Dupitable | Nov 27 2006, 12:26 AM Post #25 |
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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Look they are quite obviously lying because they didn't like the government. If you look at these absolutely non biased statistics that were released by the ~Soviet government you will see there was more food per person than, say, those yankee-bastard Americans had. |
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| Comrade Martin | Nov 27 2006, 12:34 AM Post #26 |
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Make-Believe Man
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Athesitica,
John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He estimates that by 1987, over 6 million people, a third only after the first two world wars, have been killed in CIA covert operations in the third world. He is the highest-ranking CIA officer ever to leave the agency and go public. Stockwell also said other interesting things, such as in 1980, he said that "if the Soviet Union were to disappear off the face of the map, the United States would quickly seek out new enemies to justify its own military-industrial complex." Pidgeon Island,
Sure.
First, the "purges" were not executions. The purge of the CPSU was of CPSU members - expulsions. Purge meant to be expelled from the Party, not executed. Second, there is no evidence suggest any more than 900,000 people were actually executed by the Soviet government between the years of 1921 to 1940 (the Stalin years, Stalin dying in 1953 and mass executions ending in 1938) as demonstrated by this graph: ![]()
Prove that even 10 people died.
That same propaganda that was verified year after year by international census organizations, yeah. And yes, targets were exceeded in the first few Five Year Plans (and occasionally in future plans) although not always across the board, as some areas, such as agriculture, were never up to levels that they had desired, agronomy being the least predictable division of economics. Even modern post-Soviet sources of information in Eastern Europe and the ex-Soviet areas declare all of that "propaganda" to be true.
So, food shortages prior to that (which had been common throughout the history of the Russian Empire) were the fault of Feudalist serf-owners and, later, Capitalist farm owners, as well?
There were Ukrainian separatists, but not a large enough movement to starve the entire Republic - which was responsible for almost all Soviet agriculture. You don't starve your farmers. Who grows food then? But this is explained further in a moment.
Cities held the priority. Almost all cities had completely adequate food, while rural areas got less of the foodstocks, including the farmers in the Ukraine themselves. If cities are all considered "good little communist areas" then sure, they got special treatment.
A Kulak is a person who owns farmland and employs wage-laborers to work it. They existed even before the U.S.S.R. - Stalin didn't create them. I like it when people like you are my opponents, you have no credibility after the first few sentences! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulaks http://www.answers.com/topic/kulak http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclo...n/m0017046.html
Socialism has nothing to do with rewarding the lazy for others' labor - that's actually a more literal definition of Capitalism. Rewarding the lazy (Capitalists) for the labor of others (workers.) Ironically, Anti-Communists try to turn the table on that arguement, not noticing that this is a characteristic more common to their own alternative, Capitalism. As for Cuba, its the most democratic country probably on the planet at this point in time, given to the extremely democratic manner in which their entire government is constructed. For explanation, you ought to read the article I posted which you obviously couldn't get past the title of. Furthermore, that string of personal insults of yours is further evidence that I may be young in age, but you are young in the mind. Good luck in the future, my wandering yet delightfully harmless tomfool. Kikiman,
First of all, prove that it happened (you didn't even name the dam). Second, if it happened, it sounds like a fault of engineers, not Stalin himself or the government. Hundreds of people died in the making of the Hoover Dam, you know. Arov,
Like I said to PI, the Ukraine was mostly rural, priority was placed on feeding cities. Not a nice thing, but it happens in every country suffering from food problems. They always try to feed areas of higher concentration first, no matter where the food came from.
Hey, so do I! And you know, none of them were Communist Party members. I once even met an elderly Russian couple on a bus going from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh at random, and they were here visiting their family in America. They saw me reading State and Revolution by Lenin, and were proud to see someone reading Lenin in America, and talked about how things were for people back home. They were probably not very happy to see their friends go without their pensions anymore, and be denied job after job because they were too old to work, and be unable to afford their medication if they wanted to buy food. The choice between medicine and food is one no human beings should have to make, but yet Capitalism has made that nothing but commonplace in Russia. More people are starving in Russia today than before the collapse, and there are more homeless too! And more illiterates, and more poverty... And a LOT more AIDS. 'sup wid dat? Food was short, but not a prolongued famine. There's a huge difference, and the Soviet Union never would have reached 300 million people in population if there was just some gigantic famine. It would have been inconceivable. |
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| Athiestica | Nov 27 2006, 07:08 AM Post #27 |
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Citizen
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They have had the same person in power for almost half a century. That is not a democracy by any means. |
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| Dupitable | Nov 27 2006, 05:40 PM Post #28 |
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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I was allways under the impression that one party states were fairly undemocratic. And Martin, your graph misses out executions of "spys/traitors/deserters" during the war.
They sound like exactly the type of people who would criticise the soviet government... |
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| Old Zertaxia | Nov 27 2006, 06:50 PM Post #29 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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Harvest of Sorrows....... And I'm told thats a conservative estimate.... Comrade Martin, you strongly remind me of people who claim the Holocaust never happened.... ...deserving of only scorn and the label "conspiracy theorist"..... |
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| Dupitable | Nov 27 2006, 07:43 PM Post #30 |
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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Yes they would, they took half of Europe for Christs sake. |
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| Old Zertaxia | Nov 27 2006, 11:58 PM Post #31 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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Its Willy Wonka, not Wonker.....less like a pedophile.... Commie Martin, you are exactly like anyone who claims the Holocaust didn't happen. No one believes you and your claims are made and imaginary. I mean, come on. My history professor, an admitted socialist, who would have a soft spot in his heart for commies, says conservative estimates of deaths under Stalins reign are around 20 million. And he has degrees from colleges and junk. Sorry if I believe what he says over what YOU say. He might be a tad more qualified. |
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| Northern Chittowa | Nov 28 2006, 12:02 AM Post #32 |
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The Grand Old Duke
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:ph43r: Errm, i knew that |
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| Lower Bowmania | Nov 28 2006, 01:58 AM Post #33 |
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Simply ravishing...
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First let me establish this: I have a degree in history with a primary focus on the history of Soviet Russia. I may not be a researching doctor on the matter, but believe me...I'm educated enough that I know what I"m talking about. That said... Com Martin is full of crap. You say "purges" refered to a purging from the party? That's a nice little spin--but what do you suppose happened to the people that were purged from the party? And before you answer, do keep in mind that anyone who wasn't a member of the party was considered an "enemy of the state" and also don't forget that being an enemy of the state posed an inherent risk to the state and was punishable by death. Now...I'm not a mathematician, but I can sure put 2 and 2 together. Also, you claim that kulaks had existed long before Stalin? You're absolutely correct. In fact, the kulak class had been quite engrained in Russian rural culture for centuries (although not always called a kulak, the principle was there). But to assume this wasn't a construct easily manipulated to fit a regime's needs COMPLETELY ignorant of the Russian system of Manorialism and (in effect) the Obshchina culture that dominated the political landscape since nearly the very beginning of Russian history as well as its relationship (which was tenuous AT BEST) to the large-scale culture of fear that dominated the Stalinist era. Oh, and "prove that even 10 people died" WTF!?!?!? Pro-Soviet scholars AT THE TIME acknowledged widespread famine-related death in the Ukraine...how childish do you have to be to give a response like this? Perhaps I should call you a moron...or would you simply respond, "I know you are but what am I?" Look...the numbers you gave are eerily similar to those offered by late cold-war soviets and the post cold-war communist sympathists. That kind of bending, distortion, distillation and manipulation of fact does have a name: propaganda. Martin, you're simply trying to rationalize a regime's horrific history so that it fits the mold of the utopian ideal you've decided that it should be. Perhaps you should open your eyes to all of the information available and not filter out that which would alter your views. You've developed the conclusion long before you've considered the facts...at best that's silly, at worst it can be dangerous. And before you try to make the claim that my arguments are borne of anti-socialist thought, I assure you they aren't. I personally think that socialism is a great notion...I agree with the early post-czarist idea that Capitalism is a stepping stone in economic evolution leading towards communo-social ideals in the same way that serfdom and mannorialism lead to Capitalism. And, while American, I'm hardly pro-American by default and I certainly don't consider "communism" or "socialism" a dirty word the many did during and following the cold war (and, in many cases, still do). No, I don't use idealism or a personal belief system to arrive at a conclusion...I use historic evidence and fact. |
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| Comrade Martin | Nov 28 2006, 02:21 AM Post #34 |
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Make-Believe Man
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Athesitica,
Simply because the leadership has not changed does not imply that the nation in question is undemocratic. I, for one, oppose the idea of term limits. If a candidate (or candidates) are worthy of re-election, why must we bar the people from making that decision? Judging from the U.S. at least, term limits have not solved the problems of corruption or abuse of power. Fidel Castro has not always been President, being elected consistently six times. Castro was preceded by Osvaldo Dorticós Torrado, whom he replaced in 1976 (thus, he has not been President for "almost half a century.") Nonetheless, while I might agree that elections prior to 1988 may have been less than democratic due to the nature of a one-party state, proceeding from that date, essentially completing its reform in 1994, the Cuban government has gone from a one-party democracy, to a no-party democracy. The Cuban Communist Party (PCC) was banned from fielding candidates for the National Assembly (the highest legislative authority in Cuba), although candidates may claim to be members if they so choose, and presently, as per a recent election, only 67 members of the 601-member 5th legislature were actually officials of the PCC or the UJC (Union of Young Communists). With an over 90% voter turnout rate in a country that has voluntary voting, the Cuban people strongly reaffirm their system. There is a massive system for checks and balances, focusing strongly on grassroots power. For example, from the article I posted, police aren't even allowed to make arrests unless local neighborhood committees verify that the arrest is legal - cops can't bust you unless your neighbors give them the "okay" to. Dupitable,
They aren't undemocratic if that single party wields no political authority, my friend.
Actually, the Cheka/OGPU/GPU/NKVD (same bureau, different names) handled all executions. The only ones not accounted for would be independent executions by Soviet soldiers in the field, which, as common sense might tell us, wouldn't be a very significant number.
Almost all Russians are proud of their history, whether they agree/d with Soviet policies or not. These people simply weren't politicals. Old Zertaxia,
Robert Conquest (author of your delightful Harvest of Sorrows) worked for the disinformation services of the Information Research Department of the British secret service (IRD services are key for providing doctored information to journalists and public figures in British embassies worldwide). The London Guardian carried a fine article on Mr. Conquest by David Leigh in January of 1978, actually. At the suggestion of the IRD, Conquest wrote a book about the Soviet Union; one third of the edition was bought by Praeger, which regularly publishes and distributes books at the request of the CIA. In 1986, Conquest contributed significantly to Reagan's propaganda campaign for ordinary U.S. citizens about a possible occupation of the U.S. by the Red Army! Conquest's book, co-authored by Manchip White, was entitled, What To Do When the Russians Come: A Survivalist's Handbook. In his book, The Great Terror (1968, revised 1973), Conquest estimated the number of dead during the 1932-1933 collectivization at five to six million, half in Ukraine. During the Reagan years, anti-Communist hysteria apparently needed figures exceeding those of the six million Jews exterminated by the Nazis. So in 1983, Conquest thought it opportune to extend the famine conditions to 1937 and to revise his "estimates" to 14 million dead. No information was ever provided to substantiate his claims, aside from information created by the Ukrainian Waffen SS and occupying Nazi forces, who were obviously reliable sources for such information. In fact, his claim that Ukrainian nationalists opposed the Germans was even undermined by the stories he reported of battles that they had fought against them which turned out to be false! They claimed, for example, to have executed Victor Lutze, the Chief of Staff of the German SA. But, in fact, he was killed in an automobile accident near Berlin - he wasn't even THERE. His 1986 book Harvest of Sorrow is a pseudo-academic version of history, as presented by the Ukrainian far-right and Nazi occupation officials.
Holocaust deniers are based on conspiracy theories indeed, such as Jews conspiring together as a race. However, I base my "denial" of outlandish claims on the basis that there's no evidence. For the Holocaust, we have mass graves, we have concentration camps, we have photographs, we have tons of survivors, we have videotape, and we have Nazi paperwork saying it all happened. What do you have for the Soviets? All the paperwork says you're wrong, there are no pictures, no videotape, no "mass execution camp" survivors, no mass graves... And its not like the situations are uncomparable! After the Soviet collapse, much like when the Nazis were conquered, we had almost unlimited access to all information regarding these events, and journalists and explorers could scour the land. But have they found anything even closely resembling what you speak of? But I will concede, to be fair, that the Holocaust numbers are even sometimes questionable. While I of course don't deny it happened, there is a 2 million +/- figure for the 6 million Jews killed figure with some even very reputable sources. That's a big range for an event we have so much evidence for, and I wouldn't doubt they may have been inflated by Allied conquerers to make their enemies seem even more despicable, but given the evidence, its hardly worth contesting. Yes, that's right, I question EVERYTHING. If you can't prove something to me beyond a shadow of a doubt, much like any judicial authority, I will not accept it, under any circumstances. I do not agree at all with either the Soviet or Nazi governments, but I will not blame them for crimes they did not commit. Its wrong and immoral, no matter how you spin it. You might still ask, however, why do I think people repeat the 20 million figure if its obviously wrong. Most likely, much like any closed off nation, media analysts hyped things up based on rumors and stories. This happens a lot today, and public opinion can be permanently altered by false reporting to get better ratings. The Iraq War is a good contemporary example of this. Even though I believe that Iraq is in a state of civil war, I believe CNN is exaggerating the situation, and that FOX is underemphasizing it. Bias is everywhere, and to ascertain the truth, we need to be objective. Dupitable,
...What? The Eastern Bloc developed on its own as well, they didn't bring them in to the Union (and indeed, refused nations that wanted to join, such as Bulgaria in the 70's.) The length of Soviet land invaded is the same as the distance between Chicago and the Pacific Ocean, with retreating Nazi forces commonly engaging in scorched earth tactics (and engaging in massive ethnic cleansing as they approached Moscow, not to mention artillery shelling of Soviet cities during the invasion as well). The nation was decimated, with estimates saying about 23 million people died during WWII on the Soviet site (about 14% of the population.) According to all of you, the Soviets not only recovered the loss of 20 million war casualties, but also incurred 23 million people it killed ON ITS OWN, and that famine conditions existed (how those poor people in the city of Leningrad that the Nazis surrounded and cut off from all supplies survived if they were supposedly already starving is beyond me). And in case you're unaware, the U.S.S.R. only had 168,500,000 in 1939. So take that, subtract 20 million war casualties, and ANOTHER 20 million government death victims, you only have 145,500,000 people left! And in less than 50 years, they'll double that population in spite of frequent shortages of basic necessities that you also claim existed? Old Zertaxia,
My claims are based on facts, which I provide for you. Several people here have disagreed with me, but just like a fringe cult, your numbers mean nothing when your beliefs are without proof or at all rooted in reality.
Oh, right, you know, because a college degree automatically makes you correct. I don't care if GOD said it, if there's no proof I'm not going to believe it. You all call me a dupe or a conspiracy theorist, but have you one shred of evidence? You might as well be bathing in goat's blood and declaring yourself to be the immortal reincarnation of Shaka Zulu, and you'd have just as much of reality on your side as these claims about the U.S.S.R.! No proof, no belief. That's my stance, and you don't have to like it. |
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| Comrade Martin | Nov 28 2006, 02:30 AM Post #35 |
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Make-Believe Man
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Lower Bowmania,
Fantastic. Too abd your post doesn't reflect this supposed education (not to mention, just because you attend a college doesn't make either you, your professor, nor any of the information automatically true; a college student should have that much grasp of objectivity).
Depending on their reasons for being purges, many were reassigned to menial jobs or distant ones, and yes - a fair amount were executed. The point I was making was that it didn't automatically mean death (and the majority didn't die, but were in fact imprisoned.) And not only that, but historians often apply their own spin to make the "Great Purges" sound like purges of the POPULATION. Rather, they are purges of the Communist Party. Don't like commies? You ought to love Stalin. He killed a bunch and imprisoned even more.
Non-party members were all enemies of the state, eh? That's ludicrous. I'd like to see your proof of that! That's at least 150 million enemies of the state!!!
lol, where's Pidgeon Island?
I never said they weren't easily expendable... Don't put words in my mouth.
I'm not denying there was a famine, but I am saying there is little proof that millions died, or that the government was at fault (for something that Russia has had problems with [I.E. food production] for literally hundreds of years) Yes, starvation did occur, but did millions die? I do not think so, and there's no evidence to suggest that this is actually the case. Malnutrition was much more common than starvation.
Ironically, this is my very perscription for you. |
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| Lower Bowmania | Nov 28 2006, 03:00 AM Post #36 |
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Simply ravishing...
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1. I wasn't touting a degree to say "I have a degree...I must be smarter than you." I was simply pointing out that my opinions are based on actual research and, although still a matter of opinion, haven't been devised "on the spot" just so I could chime in. Also, my intention was never to debate where I studied or whom I studied under. In other words, I've thought about this A LOT, for a long time...I"m not coming up with things off the top of my head or looking something up on a website right before posting. 2. 150 million people against the state? Hmmm...combining the death rates cited by PI and others with those that survived the Gulags/work camps and those that fled the country as well as those living in fear of discovery....I'd say that sounds about right. 3. Yes, I certainly did acknowledge that you beat PI on one point--the legitimate existence of the Kulak class. But apparently your understanding of cause and effect is flawed. The very fact that the Kulak class existed along with its historical relationship to Russian/Soviet culture weakens your overarching arguement. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY 1. Sorry L&H...we bastards really have taken this way off topic. For my part, I blame Putin to a point...but only because he is the head of a system that has bred (presently and historically) this kind of culture. 2. I don't care if Willy Wonka was a pedophile...frankly, a night in that factory is any fat kids (read: my) dream come true. |
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| Old Zertaxia | Nov 28 2006, 07:45 AM Post #37 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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I already knew that and his responses above merely prove it even further. fyi, my history professor studied and did research for his doctorate in both Germany and the Former Soviet Union, so I think he's pretty well informed. Commie Martin: Look. This is pretty simple. Stalin was a bad dude. He killed people. Lots. The Soviet Union was a bad place. People got killed for nothing. Now, these two truths are believed by most of the people in the world. What train did you miss? Not to say they're true only because people believe them, but more like so many people believe them because they're true. Now, as willingly blind as you are, no one would ever call you daunted. So I'm sure all the mindless dribble that spews forth from your biased mouth will continue without cease. I just want to say how the rest of world (you know, the part that doesn't have the red-tinted glasses of communist propaganda that you seem so eager to slop up), for the most part, views what you have such a desire to deny... |
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| Old Zertaxia | Nov 28 2006, 07:55 AM Post #38 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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If you want proof.... Harvest of Sorrows, Robert Conquest Considered by the faculty of my university to be conservative in his estimate of 15 million deaths under Stalin, through his collectivization of agriculture.... |
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| Dupitable | Nov 28 2006, 05:57 PM Post #39 |
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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Erm, no you don't. 168,500,000 - 20million - 20 million = 128,500,000. And Russia's populatio now is 142,900,000 , suggesting, that as I stated, the Soviet Union reached 300 million by taking land. Unless 157,100,000 people have been killed by the evil Capitalists. |
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| Arov | Nov 30 2006, 12:36 AM Post #40 |
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Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
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