Speaker of the People's Assembly and World Assembly Delegate Pidgeon Island Members of the Committee TBA World Assembly Delegate Angusp (aka Bodegraven) High General of the GRADF Joe Bobs |
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| Alexander Litvinenko RIP | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 24 2006, 11:46 PM (421 Views) | |
| Love and Honour | Nov 24 2006, 11:46 PM Post #1 |
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Yes Sir; No Sir: 3 Bags Full Sir
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Is Putin responsible for this, most awful death? |
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| Comrade Martin | Nov 30 2006, 04:38 AM Post #41 |
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Make-Believe Man
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Lower Bowmania,
I, too, have done reasearch. If you had done as much research as you claim, you'd have a lot more factual information here to back yourself up. I'm not trying to demean you, your education, or your educators. I am, however, not going to tolerate this attitude that you're correct without any need of factual citation for your claims.
PI cited no rates... In fact, PI probably doesn't even know HOW to cite something, let alone has he done so at any point in this entire debate. No one here, except me (and someone else citing a Robert Conquest book) has cited any of their "facts."
The Kulak class was not a "cultural" element. Culture, while influenced by classes to particular degrees, are not constructions of them. They are not a superstructure upon the base. Nothing in my arguement was weakened involving the Kulaks. Their employment of wage-slaves at miniscule pay in a neo-Feudalist fashion and their hoarding of much needed food resources and their extortionate demands of the state made their liquidation nothing but an absolute necessity. I disagree that forced collectivization was required, and I've made that disagreement known. A fair number of farmers were voluntarily agreeing to collectivzation projects before it was ever needed to be forced, and the state caused problems when it did this - not that I believe millions starved to death as a direct result, but mass suffering was an undeniable problem. I believe that Kulak-style farming (and the Kulak class itself) should have been absolutely illegal (I don't even think the Bolsheviks should have let them set up shop at the onset, personally), but again, forced collectivization was too radical a policy shift and economic change to be pulled off without some kind of drawback. Old Zertaxia,
There were lots of East German and Soviet students who were considered experts on Western society when they returned to their country from foreign research too, and I doubt their credibility as much as I doubt your own professor's. I've met professors with the same credentials as your own in the U.S. who would express the opposite of your own professor (if your professor is making the same claims as Lower Bowmania or Pidgeon Island). Let's not duel with professors, as its silly. Stick to the facts.
Okay, why was he bad? How many did he kill? Can you prove the claims made in answering those questions? I don't think Stalin was good - anyone who remembers the generic Communism debate from before will not that I remarked very negatively of Stalin around the year forward. I think Stalin was a terrible evil tyrant whose criminal actions serve only as a black mark on the name of Communism everywhere. But I will not blame Stalin for things that are not true. I blame him for legitamite wrongs, and proven wrongdoings. I will not oppose him because of propaganda - which is exactly what this is. How do I know? Because I have statistical information and facts to prove otherwise! Don't simplify history, study it. I'm not condescending here - you're all asking me to act patronizing because this is getting silly. I've been going on and on about how you have no facts; when will you figure out that I'm only asking for proof?
Who is biased here? The one who has citations for his arguements, or the people who don't here, and make baseless claims? If you have facts that say I am wrong, I'm open to them, but until that very moment, I will not adopt anything just because you said its a good idea.
If I was so wrong, the Russian and Ukrainian Communist Parties wouldn't get upwards of 20% of the vote in elections. If I was so wrong, the Communist Party of Moldova wouldn't have been re-elected to power. If I was so wrong, Transinistria would never have sought independence as a Socialist republic before the MCP came back to power (with a large percentage of the vote) in Moldova. If I was so wrong, Alexander Lukashenko would not be President of Belarus, and its economy growing thanks to the strong Socialist economic policies keeping over 80% of the economy under state management. If I was so wrong, the People's Communist Party of Kazakhstan wouldn't be the 4th biggest party in the nation. Communists are still widely popular in many of these nations, and increasingly so. Even though many of those people hated the Soviet Union, for VERY good reason, a large number are coming to realize that indeed, Capitalism was not the solution. What was needed was more democracy, not more Capitalism. Ironically for Turkmen, Kazakhs, and Russians, they are even losing any political that they believed they would have with the restoration of Capitalism! What is needed is an understanding of mistakes in constructing Socialism in the U.S.S.R. and how we can correct them. To make up reasons to hate the U.S.S.R. complicates the process of understanding the real problems and solving the real problems.
Do you guys all read the same books? Oh, wait, I forgot about the bookclub... lol, I like how you didn't read my posts, though, props for that. Try my last one. Conquest is completely without any credit whatsoever, both because of his person and the clear factual blunders made throughout all of his work. I even gave several examples. Dupitable,
lol... That doesn't do anything but rienforce my point, because that's even LESS than I said, which makes the claim that Soviet population would hit 300,000,000 so quickly even MORE absurd. 20 million people don't just disappear, and its effects on Soviet growth would have been MUCH more devastating.
You misunderstand. The population of the U.S.S.R. before WWII was 168,500,000 (that INCLUDES the populations of Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Byelorussia, Ukraine, Moldavia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrghizstan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, and part of Poland - all the land you claim they "stole"). Subtracting 40 million (WWII casualties plus supposed political persecution victims). In the end, the Soviet Union would have had: 168,500,000 (That's the ENTIRE Soviet Union) In reality, they actually had: And by 1991, they had: 293 million exactly. However, the RSFSR (Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic) had a population of 148,164,000 in 1991! Yet Russia, today, in 2006, has only close to what you said (I trust CIA numbers more than yours), 143,420,309. Where did 4,743,691 people go? Not only does census information say those people that died under Stalin (20 million victims) never died, BUT, we have yet another interesting question in the Russia issue of where almost 5 million people went! The massive outbreaks of AIDS and polio - diseases kept under control and eliminated, respectively, under Soviet medicine, revived when Socialist healthcare in the U.S.S.R. collapsed and was privatized - plus the many many enslavement cartels for the international enslavement and prostition of women and children established along with Capitalism in Russia, are probably very much responsible for what has happened to those people. And these are deaths we can PROVE, unlike yours about the Ukraine or execution. The LA Times, among other reputable sources, cites Russia's high disease rates and accompanying low live birth rates, as I do. If Stalin was bad, all evidence says Capitalism is worse. |
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| Old Zertaxia | Nov 30 2006, 04:57 AM Post #42 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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I don't see the point in wasting one minute of my life on your propaganda. If you care, as a rule, assume that I don't read the majority (or any) of your post(s). |
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| Lower Bowmania | Nov 30 2006, 05:22 AM Post #43 |
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Simply ravishing...
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| Comrade Martin | Nov 30 2006, 06:33 AM Post #44 |
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Make-Believe Man
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Well, the irony's certainly razor sharp here! I read all of your posts, you read none of mine, and yet it is you who claims to be correct, and I to be biased and wrong. One of us is certainly blind to the truth, and I'd take a guess that its literally he who blinds himself to information challenging his viewpoint on the basis that it is "propaganda." The major failing of all who have opposed me here so far seems to be one critical element: a lack of skepticism and objective reasoning skills. You're blindly believe what you have been told, as not one of you has given me a credible citation for your information. This tells me that the entire membership of this forum who has visited this thread is incapable of challenging me on a logical level. And I'll persist in this thread until you've shown me you're able to do more than you all have. |
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| Comrade Martin | Nov 30 2006, 06:58 AM Post #45 |
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Make-Believe Man
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| Pidgeon Island | Nov 30 2006, 06:38 PM Post #46 |
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Not so stale.
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Oh the irony.
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| Old Zertaxia | Nov 30 2006, 06:43 PM Post #47 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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You're right Comrade Martin. All of us are wrong. Stalin was a nice grandfatherly figure. Nobody killed anybody in the Soviet Union. Communism never killed a soul. Let's all delcare communist revolutions in our countries and enjoy the perfection that communism is. Where is that quote about rainbows shooting out of communist bunnies' asses and such? Oh yes... "The USSR was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles." How blind and ignorant of us to ever think that you're wrong, Comrade Martin, even though everyone we've ever come into contact with (except you) taught us that millions were starved and purged. They're obviously completely wrong. You're the only one who is right. Gumdrop smiles, everyone..... Excuse me if I scoff and am slightly sarcastic when you say things that are propaganda, bordering on outright lying, dear Commie Martin.... |
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| Athiestica | Nov 30 2006, 07:58 PM Post #48 |
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Citizen
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The idea of communism is great but it was done for the benefit of the leaders and not of the workers. |
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| Lower Bowmania | Nov 30 2006, 09:47 PM Post #49 |
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Simply ravishing...
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To be fair, there's little (if any) truth here Ath. The logic, reasoning, and motive behind the movement towards communism was admirable enough...it certainly wasn't developed out of a desire to benefit a corrupt class of dictatorial rulers. You'd be hard pressed to show that Lenin, Trotsky, and Plekhanov were looking to grab power and wield it to serve their own purposes. The corruption and misuse of the system came later...but it certainly did come in force. |
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| Pidgeon Island | Nov 30 2006, 10:02 PM Post #50 |
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Not so stale.
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Communism is unfair anyway. Meritocratic capitalism is the only fair way. |
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| Arov | Nov 30 2006, 10:37 PM Post #51 |
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Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
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Never liked the idea of forced altruism, tbh. But a socialist ethic isn't a bad thing. |
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| Pidgeon Island | Nov 30 2006, 10:47 PM Post #52 |
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Not so stale.
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So you say that someone who works about 10 hours a day and is really intelligent should get the same as someone who doesn't work at all and is stupider than a fly. That really makes sense. |
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| Arov | Nov 30 2006, 11:52 PM Post #53 |
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Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
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No, I was only thinking in terms of taking responsibility for your actions as they affect the whole of society; as well as being aware of the disparities among human beings and working to change them. |
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| Love and Honour | Dec 1 2006, 12:00 AM Post #54 |
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Yes Sir; No Sir: 3 Bags Full Sir
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Question: And please consider carefully what you type before you type! If someone, through no fault of their own, is unable to pay their way in this world, would you consign them to the scrapheap of society without assistance? |
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| Pidgeon Island | Dec 1 2006, 12:04 AM Post #55 |
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Not so stale.
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It depends what you mean by through no fault of their own. Give me details, because apart from health issues, I can't see any reason why people wouldn't be able to work. |
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| Arov | Dec 1 2006, 12:08 AM Post #56 |
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Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
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The job market is another reason why. So is expediency on the part of CEO's. So are family needs, and also fears of crime. And also bias towards certain personalities and sometimes even ethnicities on the part of hirers. Any more questions? |
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| Pidgeon Island | Dec 1 2006, 12:16 AM Post #57 |
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Not so stale.
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People with the strong enough will can overcome those things, it's just people that are too lazy, don't have the correct attitude to work and give up far too easily that use things like those as excuses. One good example is Condoleeza Rice, she grew up in segregated Alabama and become the most powerful woman in the work after the German Chancellor. She got a masters degree at the age of 19. It's just lazy people that don't try who don't suceed, the only excuse for not working in my opinion is medical problems, and there are jobs that disabled people can carry out, and they have been shown to be more beneficial to the person than government handouts. There is more than one employer as well you know, if you have one boss who is a shithead, you could just go and find a better job and then the business that you left will fail because they made a mistake in employing the bad manager. That's called justice, your ideas of "social justice" are actually quite unjust. |
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| Arov | Dec 1 2006, 12:25 AM Post #58 |
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Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
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And there are some areas that pay poorly while others pay higher wages. The capability to carry out a job is not always in question when you get payed lower than someone else who does the same job elsewhere. And no, you can't always just "find another boss" if you live in a poor inner-city area that you're afraid to walk out of your house and where no businesses want to set up shop unless its some shitty fast-food restaurant that only hires three or four workers. |
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| Arov | Dec 1 2006, 12:27 AM Post #59 |
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Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
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How many CEO's are there compared to the number of workers, PI? |
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| Love and Honour | Dec 1 2006, 12:46 AM Post #60 |
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Yes Sir; No Sir: 3 Bags Full Sir
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Your answer is sufficient! |
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