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Founded - 30 April 2005
Population - 165 Nations
World Ranking - 61
Regional Power - High

Government of the Global Right Alliance


Speaker of the People's Assembly and World Assembly Delegate
Pidgeon Island

Members of the Committee
TBA

World Assembly Delegate
Angusp (aka Bodegraven)

High General of the GRADF
Joe Bobs
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Alexander Litvinenko RIP
Topic Started: Nov 24 2006, 11:46 PM (420 Views)
Love and Honour
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Yes Sir; No Sir: 3 Bags Full Sir
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Quote:
 
"You may succeed in silencing me, but that silence comes at a price.

"You have shown yourself to be as barbaric and ruthless as your most hostile critics have claimed."

"The howl of protest from around the world will reverberate Mr Putin in your ears for the rest of your life," the statement added.



Is Putin responsible for this, most awful death?




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Comrade Martin
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Make-Believe Man
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Old Zertaxia,
Quote:
 
How blind and ignorant of us to ever think that you're wrong, Comrade Martin, even though everyone we've ever come into contact with (except you) taught us that millions were starved and purged. They're obviously completely wrong. You're the only one who is right.


Look, all your pointless sarcasm aside, why can't you just prove your statement that 20 million people died in political repression and famine? I've even said (and proved) the deaths of about 2 million people, through execution and prison conditions. What evidence have you provided that any more than that have died?

I said it before as well: I hate Stalin, I believe he was wrong and despicable, but I will never, under any circumstances, blame someone for things they did not do.

Athestica,
Quote:
 
The idea of communism is great but it was done for the benefit of the leaders and not of the workers.


This was not an execution of the ideal of Communism, but an excercize in an attempt to arrive there. It failed because the model was wrong, giving power to an elite of the workers who, by merit of being employed much as a different class altogether (similar to the labor aristocracy in Capitalism) and no longer as proletarians, became a new class (or more appropriately, a semi-class, sharing characteristics of both the Bourgeoisie and Proletariat) seeking reactionary ideals, which allowed them the ideas of slaughtering millions, repressing civil freedoms, etc. Only those working together (like a government) who would collectively support (a return to) Capitalism can support pointless mass murder, if history is any indication.

Cuba is a modern example of what happens if the elite Party catches the mistake before being corrupted by power, essentially. No longer does the PCC have the right to control the state. Now, the people do, and still work at their job between National Assembly and local committee sessions. Cuba is rich in civil freedoms, miles ahead of most of both nearby hemispheres and especially in the Cariebbean.

Lower Bowmania,
Quote:
 
To be fair, there's little (if any) truth here Ath.

The logic, reasoning, and motive behind the movement towards communism was admirable enough...it certainly wasn't developed out of a desire to benefit a corrupt class of dictatorial rulers. You'd be hard pressed to show that Lenin, Trotsky, and Plekhanov were looking to grab power and wield it to serve their own purposes.

The corruption and misuse of the system came later...but it certainly did come in force.


Ah, ha! You're on a VERY correct path here, sir, if I may say so. Read the reply to Athestica above. This might be worth debating.

Pidgeon Island,
Quote:
 
Communism is unfair anyway.

Meritocratic capitalism is the only fair way.


*Laughs.* By the way, do you happen to masturbate to an image of Ronald Reagan or Margaret Thatcher? Maybe on top of one another...?

Arov,
Quote:
 
Never liked the idea of forced altruism, tbh.


I don't think what was forced had anything to do with altruism...

Quote:
 
But a socialist ethic isn't a bad thing.


Certainly not.

Pidgeon Island,
Quote:
 
So you say that someone who works about 10 hours a day and is really intelligent should get the same as someone who doesn't work at all and is stupider than a fly.

That really makes sense.


No, do you? That has absolutely nothing to do with the Communist theory for Socialism.

Arov,
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No, I was only thinking in terms of taking responsibility for your actions as they affect the whole of society; as well as being aware of the disparities among human beings and working to change them.


Indeed.

Pidgeon Island,
Quote:
 
People with the strong enough will can overcome those things, it's just people that are too lazy, don't have the correct attitude to work and give up far too easily that use things like those as excuses.


You should go to Liberia, Zimbabwe, Nauru, Turkmenistan, the Cocos Islands, Zambia, East Timor, or Djibouti, where more than half of those nations' populations are unemployed. I'm sure they're all lazy. Or would you like to get even worse and claim its because they're not white?

Quote:
 
One good example is Condoleeza Rice, she grew up in segregated Alabama and become the most powerful woman in the work after the German Chancellor. She got a masters degree at the age of 19.


Its called luck. She got an education, met the right people... I know women more ambitious than Rice who have achieved nothing. Luck is the only thing determining success or failure in Capitalism.

Quote:
 
It's just lazy people that don't try who don't suceed, the only excuse for not working in my opinion is medical problems, and there are jobs that disabled people can carry out, and they have been shown to be more beneficial to the person than government handouts.


I'm all for giving disabled people jobs they are capable of doing. As it goes for Socialism, "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their deeds." Do what you can, get what you deserve. That's the motto. Only Capitalist economies are famous for "welfare state" models that give out many many unnecessary handouts.

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There is more than one employer as well you know, if you have one boss who is a shithead, you could just go and find a better job and then the business that you left will fail because they made a mistake in employing the bad manager. That's called justice, your ideas of "social justice" are actually quite unjust.


See what Arov had to say about your "well, find another job" nonsense.

Justice is called ensuring everyone has a future, that no one can fail absolutely and can learn from mistakes, that we all take responsibility for our lives and have opportunities to correct them. That no one must live their lives from wage-slaver to wage-slaver. That everyone is his own boss, and everyone else's boss. That everyone is free and equal before the law, and has an equal share of power and control in society as everyone else.

Not one of those things is possible while Capitalism exists, and not one of those things is possible without Socialism.
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Old Zertaxia
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The Ex-Speaker
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Comrade Martin, you are a very silly person.
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Dupitable
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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Quote:
 
I've even said (and proved) the deaths of about 2 million people, through execution and prison conditions. What evidence have you provided that any more than that have died?


Oh thank god. I was here thinking that the Soviets were murdering bastards. But by proving they murdered 2 million people you have proved me wrong. Thanks C_M.
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Comrade Martin
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Make-Believe Man
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Dupitable
Dec 1 2006, 11:29 AM
Oh thank god. I was here thinking that the Soviets were murdering bastards. But by proving they murdered 2 million people you have proved me wrong. Thanks C_M.

See, this is why you people need to READ what I said. I've never denied they were evil and despicable. They turned Socialism in to a slaughterous base for a coming return to Capitalism. But if we're going to analyze their faults, we need to have concrete faults to analyze! If we start glossing over or magnifying the facts, we'll have a great deal of problems in our approach analyzing any and all problems. And because my goal is analyzing what went wrong, that's of utmost importance.
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Old Zertaxia
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The Ex-Speaker
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Comrade Martin
Dec 1 2006, 10:31 PM
See, this is why you people need to READ what I said.

Nope.

Commie Martin = Propaganda

Old Zertaxia > Propaganda

Old Zertaxia > Commie Martin?

I knew I'd use math for something, someday...

:Laugh:

Oh, how I amuse myself...
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Dupitable
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So you are saying that you want to see what went wrong in the USSR, and see if it can be changed. You could look at the other, better, communist countries that didn't have persecutions such as

Cuba, no wait, forgot about the mass persecution of gays and the execution of thousands of prisoners

how about

China, no wait sorry, forgot about people being starved off their land during the cultural revolution

Ok, they were bad examples

North Korea, no damn it wait, forgot about the detention camps with mass torture and starvation.

Vietnam maybe, no wait forgot that while they like to cry about Mai Lai, they commited some pretty atrocious war crimes themselves, such as biological warfare and the torture and murder of war criminals. Not to mention the detention camps after the war.

Hmm, I am starting to spot a pattern with these communist countries.
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Comrade Martin
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Make-Believe Man
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Quote:
 
So you are saying that you want to see what went wrong in the USSR, and see if it can be changed. You could look at the other, better, communist countries that didn't have persecutions such as


Exactly.

Quote:
 
Cuba, no wait, forgot about the mass persecution of gays and the execution of thousands of prisoners


Cuba is rapidly becoming THE most liberal country towards gays in the Americas. Are you nuts? And here you go with nonsense claims about executions again! Ask yourself: If you can't prove it, WHY do you believe it?

Cuba is a perfect example of what I am talking about. They do not have a Vanguard class in power, and they are not repressing civil rights (although there were limited infringements on such things before the late 80's). Cuba is a very different place than it once was, and is now a very vibrant, open, democratic society. You should read about it, as I have been doing, extensively.

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China, no wait sorry, forgot about people being starved off their land during the cultural revolution


The cultural revolution had nothing to do with agriculture... But that's beside the point. Modern China is a Capitalist hellhole which oppresses over a billion people.

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North Korea, no damn it wait, forgot about the detention camps with mass torture and starvation.


I don't necessarily support the DPRK either, but the claims about camps, torture, and even starvation are nonexistant by merit of unprovenness (in the first two examples) and completely nonsense in the latter.

Quote:
 
Vietnam maybe, no wait forgot that while they like to cry about Mai Lai, they commited some pretty atrocious war crimes themselves, such as biological warfare and the torture and murder of war criminals. Not to mention the detention camps after the war.


Biological warfare? What exactly did the Vietnamese have to use? I doubt it was ANYTHING equivalent to Agent Orange or napalm. I don't blame them for killing war criminals or torture of them, but I don't support such actions either. Not that the U.S. was any better at all in that conflict. Had the U.S. won, I don't doubt there'd be even more such camps. We ran such camps in Germany after WWII, you know. The Soviets did none of it.

Quote:
 
Hmm, I am starting to spot a pattern with these communist countries.


Yeah, if you believe a bunch of unproven crap. lol, seriously, do you get your information from coloring books or something?
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Dupitable
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No, from the academic books on the reading list in my Making of the South course at university. And regarding the N Korean camps, I have seen footage of them which was smuggled to S Korea and Japan.
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Comrade Martin
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Make-Believe Man
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Quote:
 
No, from the academic books on the reading list in my Making of the South course at university.


Can you provide quote from these books that are even related to these topics? And where they are getting their informaiton?

Quote:
 
And regarding the N Korean camps, I have seen footage of them which was smuggled to S Korea and Japan.


Can I see this footage? I've seen plenty of movies on the subject of the DPRK, most of it crap (I even have one lengthy one critiques on my MySpace.) I have seen real ones, but they often blow situations out of proportion (like a train conductor shouting at a passenger who did not have a ticket) or add information that is unlikely or impossible to prove (people are sitting at a train station, so the narrator says that they've all waited for hours because of fuel shortages - patience obviously not being a virtue amongst Koreans.) Be critical, my friend, and stop accepting everything at face value.
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Dupitable
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I trust the japanese government more than I trust you.
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Love and Honour
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:wacko:

I think you missed CMs point...

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Dupitable
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No I understood he was saying one should 'read between the lines' and see if it could be interpreted as something else. But you can do that with anything, hell, you could do it with films of the holocaust.
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Old Zertaxia
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The Ex-Speaker
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Love and Honour
Dec 3 2006, 11:14 AM
:wacko:

I think you missed CMs point...

commie lover
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Love and Honour
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Old Z I thing you will be hard pushed to find a post where I agree with CM on this I am just pointing out that he missed the point.
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Dupitable
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Which I didn't.
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Love and Honour
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Sorry I just thought by your reply you had!
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Dupitable
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Did you read my second reply?
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Love and Honour
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I was referring to this reply

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I trust the japanese government more than I trust you.
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Dupitable
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Yes but I explained what I meant in the second reply, as I can see how that would seem to display a misunderstanding of the point on my behalf.
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Love and Honour
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:P Whatever
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