Speaker of the People's Assembly and World Assembly Delegate Pidgeon Island Members of the Committee TBA World Assembly Delegate Angusp (aka Bodegraven) High General of the GRADF Joe Bobs |
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| Topic Started: Aug 21 2009, 04:48 AM (1,624 Views) | |
| Old Zertaxia | Sep 30 2009, 01:51 AM Post #221 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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Yes, I thought you might say something like that, because she is a human being. This is where we fundamentally don't agree. I think existence, the state of being (a human, even), does not entitle you to anything. The faith in the country and the paying are all a result of the existence of the NHS. You are quite right, nationalized health care is never free. Its paid for with money the government steals from its citizens. I wouldn't equate healthcare with the right to live, at least not in the sense that you are above. This is where it is rather frustrating, because I want to say "If you don't save your money for food, the government won't give you food at the taxpayers expense," but the government does in fact do this, and it makes me angry. The government should not be your safety net, at least not for those who are capable of getting by without it, even if they do waste their opportunity to get the means to survival on their own. If you screw up, you get screwed. That last part is not as clear as I wanted it to be....sigh.... |
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| Old Zertaxia | Sep 30 2009, 01:51 AM Post #222 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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You're smarter than you look. Edited by Old Zertaxia, Sep 30 2009, 11:05 AM.
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| Blue Blessed Dolphins | Sep 30 2009, 04:28 AM Post #223 |
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Professor
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Being a smoker, and not a legal one, I don't care if I'm not allowed to smoke in some places. If I need my fix I simply step outside for a few minutes, then come back in. Mind you, this is with the presence of friends. I don't go out alone.
I have to smell good for the ladies out there....
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| Old Zertaxia | Sep 30 2009, 11:07 AM Post #224 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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I am now suffering from a cornicopia of emotions, ranging from pity to mild disdain to outright disgust to amusement. |
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| Lower Bowmania | Sep 30 2009, 02:03 PM Post #225 |
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Simply ravishing...
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I can only assume that, being a non-legal smoker, you are underaged...so you must be relatively young. So I wonder, how long have you been smoking? More appropriately, since you may have had to conceal the habit, how long have you been smoking in public? I ask because I think it's important to understand the basis for other people's opinions. In your case, it is completely realistic to assume that you probably haven't been smoking in restaurants, clubs, etc. for a very long time...so to suddenly be told that you have to go outside isn't a drastic change. For a public smoker of a good bit of time now, It's a little different for me. See, I'd been smoking in restaurants and bars for years when the smoking bans started to roll out. In my case, something that I had always had the right (or privilege, or opportunity, or whatever you please) to enjoy was taken away from me through no fault of my own. I realize, of course, that this isn't much of an argument in terms of smoking bans, effects of second-hand smoke, or sin taxes. But I think its something worth keeping in mind, just to understand the "other side of the fence." |
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| Northern Chittowa | Sep 30 2009, 02:13 PM Post #226 |
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The Grand Old Duke
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I see where your coming from, but suffice to say i dont agree ![]() Its quite hard to accept where you are coming from, and vice versa, because you have always dealt with a private system of healthcare whereas i have always dealt with a free one... |
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| Joe Bobs | Sep 30 2009, 05:17 PM Post #227 |
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GRADF High General | FRA Arch Chancellor
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Wow, a lot to respond to. BBD: LB is right. Being a new-smoker (under a year, 18 months or so) is very different, because you don't really need cigs the same way. For example, if all my friends had quit smoking during my first year of smoking, I'd have probably quit (anyone who says peer pressure and trying to look cool doesn't play a part in why you started is lying). Now, if all my friends quit, I'd keep smoking. (Although, I do plan to quit after I finish uni, just 'cos I've always said I would, and if I make excuses then I will do forever.) NC, I agree with everything you said. My response to the NHS argument basically just seconds what NC said. I have a couple of points to add: 1) when Old Z said he thought we said the NHS is perfect, no, not at all. Every week in a British tabloid there is a complaint about queues or something (although I have never encountered such queues and I slightly believe it is made up or exaggerated by the right wing press (most media in the UK is right wing, only two major left wing newspapers - I'm sure even the tories here will agree with that)). The NHS provides BASIC healthcare for everyone. If you want a private room, better food, faster, more personalised service, you go private. That is why the government doesn't run the private sector out of business (that is my response to the above quote). TRE, stop flip-flopping! It seems to me the answer to both the smoking and the NHS debate is that you CAN have the best of both worlds. All you have to do is keep the two systems separate. Smoking and non-smoking pubs - everyone's happy. Or, smoking and non-smoking sections that, say, must be divided by a wall and corridor so smoke doesn't drift. Everyone should pay National Insurance for the NHS (which is only a very small tax, really) and the brunt can be suffered by smokers. |
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| The Ruescher Empire | Sep 30 2009, 07:53 PM Post #228 |
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Buh
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Flip Flopping? I prefer Old Z's way but lets face it, it will never happen....sigh.... |
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| Blue Blessed Dolphins | Sep 30 2009, 11:25 PM Post #229 |
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Professor
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I started when I was fifteen, so about a year and a half. And I started to relax because high school is hard, and the flavor. But I would only smoke my dad and bro's butts and only in the backyard of my house. So I doubt that being cool had anything to do with it, maybe subconsciously. And JB and LB you are right, being how I've not been smoking in many public places it doesn't bother me as much as it would for yall. But I thought I'd put in my two cents anyways. |
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| Dupitable | Oct 1 2009, 12:47 AM Post #230 |
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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I'm still waiting for a reply from Uropa. |
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| Old Zertaxia | Oct 1 2009, 01:30 AM Post #231 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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Well, my remark about you think the NHS was perfect was not really made in with the conviction that that was your actual belief. I totally get that you don't think its perfect... I still maintain that public options will put the insurance industry (at least a great part of it) out of business. The market for insurance coverage will be affected by the basic coverage provided by government. In order to make it feasible, the government will want the highest possible customers, and thus will lower their prices (they don't have to operate on a for-profit basis, because they're the government) and other companies that have to operate for profit (i.e. to pay their workers) and provide basic coverage will be eliminated. The only private companies that would survive are those that provide high-priced care, and there will be market oversaturation due to many companies that once were able to provide many levels of coverage have to focus on only high-end care, because basic care is no longer profitable. Competitive and healthy private insurance industries cannot exist with a public option, no matter how basic. I think it is patently unfair to steal more money from one group (smokers) to pay for anything, especially operations that don't fall inside the scope of what government ought to be doing... |
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| Old Zertaxia | Oct 1 2009, 01:31 AM Post #232 |
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The Ex-Speaker
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You started smoking because high school is hard? |
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| Blue Blessed Dolphins | Oct 1 2009, 02:47 AM Post #233 |
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Professor
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It relaxes me..... |
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| fighter4u | Oct 1 2009, 02:53 AM Post #234 |
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our land is fill with blood may our people know only love.....
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Where I live, many musicians make a living out of playing in bars as its a good way to get their name out their and earn money. Bar workers (students trying to pay the rent and so on) should not be forced in such a unhealthy work condition. You have the choice if you want to smoke or not. But those who have to earn a living at the bars do not. Also in my home province of Newfoundland, businesses in bars has gone up after the smoking ban. The reason for this is because more people are able to enjoy the bars without the smoke clogging the air. Smokers are a dying breed (pardon the pun) anyway and its becoming less and less socially acceptable. Its a dirty habit and you shouldn't be allowed to poison others just because its inconvenience you. As for Russia. It said by 2015 Russia GDP will match Portugal (the EU poorest country) if it keeps growing at the rate it is now. In other worlds Russia is what it always has been. A giant country with a huge population, but lagging behind the rest of the world in terms of industrial might. Their army is simply not as great of a threat as it used to be. Russia will never have the ability to invade Western Europe and then hold on to what it has taken. It's armed forced simply doesn't match up to the rest of the world super powers anymore. Another worrying trend about Russia is the lack of respect for free press. But thats another topic for another day. |
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| Dupitable | Oct 1 2009, 12:48 PM Post #235 |
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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F4U. Just shut up. |
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| Ixzara | Oct 1 2009, 01:17 PM Post #236 |
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Ixzaran posting is now outsourced to Scientology
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As a casual smoker I don't really have a problem with going outside to smoke when I go to the pub. But then again I have expensive taste in bars and all the ones I go to regularly have heaters outside and decent, covered, smoking areas. More of my friends attend the pub regularly knowing they won't be surrounded by smoke the whole time. However, not having smoking in clubs and music venues has definitely put me off them a lot more (music venues at least). Instead of the places smelling of smoke they have the smell of sweat hanging in the air. But if you made exceptions for them in the law you'd create huge loopholes and reverse the whole thing anyway. |
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| Lower Bowmania | Oct 1 2009, 01:29 PM Post #237 |
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Simply ravishing...
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No. |
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| The Ruescher Empire | Oct 1 2009, 01:36 PM Post #238 |
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Buh
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Zing again |
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| Dupitable | Oct 1 2009, 02:13 PM Post #239 |
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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Wasn't the last time you said zing in reference to my comment, which I later justified with an essay. So, excuse me if I am not especially happy with your post of appreciation. Edited by Dupitable, Oct 1 2009, 02:14 PM.
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| Joe Bobs | Oct 1 2009, 03:22 PM Post #240 |
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GRADF High General | FRA Arch Chancellor
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Sorry, but I don't believe that. No one likes the taste of cigs first time. Now, yes I love the taste. It's like beer, now I love it. When Iwas 14, I thought it was disgusting. Acquired tastes. And ewww smoking other people's butts! That definately didn't taste good. f4u: What you said (re: Russia) suggests that the situation that exists now will always exist, without change. Because Russia is a certain way now, it won't always be that way. In around 50/60 years, the US, as an example, went from emerging industrial power with large areas of completely agrarian society to one of the world's leading powers. Germany went from near-collapse in 1923 to the biggest power in Europe (admittedly this is arguable) in 15 years. Nations change a lot. lxzara reminds me of a good point. Going to gigs has been transformed for me since the smoking ban. I either miss loads of it ('cos I'm drinking too, and I like to smoke with drinks) or I get annoyed because I want a cig. Obviously, my comfort is not an argument for or against the ban, it's just a point. Old Z: You can't say that the entire point of the healthcare system is just to keep insurance companies open. If they weren't there, they wouldn't be there! lol. Seriously though, obviously the transfer form one system to another would have teething problems. And I can understand that now, a time when jobs are scarce, may not be the best time to do it. However, a system which benefits tens, if not hundreds, of millions, should not be ignored to protect the jobs of a few thousand, not the profits of the few dozen owners of those companies. |
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