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Founded - 30 April 2005
Population - 165 Nations
World Ranking - 61
Regional Power - High

Government of the Global Right Alliance


Speaker of the People's Assembly and World Assembly Delegate
Pidgeon Island

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TBA

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Angusp (aka Bodegraven)

High General of the GRADF
Joe Bobs
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Joe Bobs is back!
Topic Started: Aug 21 2009, 04:48 AM (1,623 Views)
fighter4u
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our land is fill with blood may our people know only love.....
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Dupitable
Oct 1 2009, 12:48 PM
F4U.

Just shut up.
How about you grow up first?

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fighter4u
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our land is fill with blood may our people know only love.....
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Joe Bobs
Oct 1 2009, 03:22 PM
f4u: What you said (re: Russia) suggests that the situation that exists now will always exist, without change. Because Russia is a certain way now, it won't always be that way. In around 50/60 years, the US, as an example, went from emerging industrial power with large areas of completely agrarian society to one of the world's leading powers. Germany went from near-collapse in 1923 to the biggest power in Europe (admittedly this is arguable) in 15 years. Nations change a lot.

Yeah, but in 15 years if their economy keeps on growing as it is, their GDP will match Portugal. That was from the Prime Minster of Russia himself. And the U.S and Germany both had wars to drive them to the top of the dog pile. In today world, Russia will never fight a large scale war. Its economy could not handle it. Once again all the wealth in Russia is held by a few, while many others must do with what they can. Russia power today is their diplomatic might and the sway they hold around their boarder countries. Sure, their natural gas is important. But it, like the Middle East will run out one day.

Those, I will admit that anything can happen and Russia could be the super power of tomorrow. Nobody can tell the future.

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Dupitable
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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fighter4u
Oct 1 2009, 08:39 PM
Dupitable
Oct 1 2009, 12:48 PM
F4U.

Just shut up.
How about you grow up first?

The Russian Economy is growing at 6-7% a year, it is the eighth biggest economy in the world. Exactly how will it regress to 37th in 15 years?
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Old Zertaxia
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The Ex-Speaker
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Joe Bobs
Oct 1 2009, 03:22 PM
Old Z: You can't say that the entire point of the healthcare system is just to keep insurance companies open. If they weren't there, they wouldn't be there! lol. Seriously though, obviously the transfer form one system to another would have teething problems. And I can understand that now, a time when jobs are scarce, may not be the best time to do it. However, a system which benefits tens, if not hundreds, of millions, should not be ignored to protect the jobs of a few thousand, not the profits of the few dozen owners of those companies.
I'm not really sure how anything I said stated that I think the healthcare system is there to keep insurance companies open, but I believe the only fair way for everyone to purchase the healthcare they want is where a competitive market exists for both healthcare and health insurance. I'm not trying to come at this from a "save big business/insurance companies" angle, more of a "I'm not paying for you to get healthcare" angle, especially if that healthcare is provided by a government option. If insurance companies ceased to exist, but I could still purchase the healthcare I desired, I wouldn't be upset...

And that malarky about the good of the many is just an excuse for oppressing individual rights.
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Dupitable
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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A family I know fosters children. One boy had only one tracable parent, who was a drug addict. This boy has never had chance to get health insurance, and I am unsure exactly why, when he was laying in hospital for several days (not able to pay insurance or tax), he should, under your system, have just been put on the street.

I am happy to pay for the healthcare of that child, and more crucially, I am happy to force everyone in this country to.
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Joe Bobs
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GRADF High General | FRA Arch Chancellor
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Firstly, Dup's statistics are correct, I don't know where you got yours from f4u.

Secondly, true, Russia could not fight a war with major powers (Western Europe, US, China) today. But that's thinking about conventional, traditional warfare. Cold wars are not so costly (yes the last cold war was costly because of arms race/space race, but this is not necessarily needed for a cold war) as you just support the wars of smaller states.

I don't think Russia's economic situation is sustainable - no industry based on ore and energy extraction is in the long run. Such economies normally evolve into industrial economies. This is not possible in Russia, where attempts at industrialised economy have already failed. I have already gone into detail over the basic geopolitical problem which Russia cannot possibly solve (Moscow is simply not in a good spot). In addition, its demographic problems spell doom. It's population is declining rapidly, as the rest of Europe's is, but it's economy cannot handle it in the same way as the service-based economy of Western Europe can.

f4u, I don't know what your point is. In your first post it sounded like you were saying you thought Russia would be powerful and in your second it sounds like you're saying the opposite.

And you can have a military based economy without being at war all the time - admittedly constant war makes it more plausible to the public regarding why defense contractors get huge subsidies. So long as defense is subsidised it can help an economy grow.

Old Z, I think you hit the nail on the head: "And that malarky about the good of the many is just an excuse for oppressing individual rights." A murky issue which I, and I'm sure many, have opinions on both sides of. But this is the underlying conflict of our argument. I don't imagine I can persuade you or that you can persuade me, and we probably both know the arguments on both sides anyway.
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Old Zertaxia
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The Ex-Speaker
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Dupitable
Oct 1 2009, 10:58 PM
A family I know fosters children. One boy had only one tracable parent, who was a drug addict. This boy has never had chance to get health insurance, and I am unsure exactly why, when he was laying in hospital for several days (not able to pay insurance or tax), he should, under your system, have just been put on the street.

I am happy to pay for the healthcare of that child, and more crucially, I am happy to force everyone in this country to.
That is a special case, and of course I wouldn't be against a fund for helping out children such as him. I'm not entirely heartless.

Needless to say, though, I'm not quite as happy-go-lucky as you are in spending others money, no matter how charitable the cause. Morality ends where the gun begins.
Edited by Old Zertaxia, Oct 1 2009, 11:14 PM.
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Old Zertaxia
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The Ex-Speaker
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Joe Bobs
Oct 1 2009, 11:05 PM
Old Z, I think you hit the nail on the head: "And that malarky about the good of the many is just an excuse for oppressing individual rights." A murky issue which I, and I'm sure many, have opinions on both sides of. But this is the underlying conflict of our argument. I don't imagine I can persuade you or that you can persuade me, and we probably both know the arguments on both sides anyway.
Yes.

I almost always go for the individual above the group.
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Northern Chittowa
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The Grand Old Duke
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On the note of Russia and F4U stating that its economy couldn't handle it, i just want to state that a wartime eonomy is completely different from that of peacetime...I wouldn't underestimate it if i was you...
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Dupitable
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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Old Zertaxia
Oct 1 2009, 11:11 PM
Dupitable
Oct 1 2009, 10:58 PM
A family I know fosters children. One boy had only one tracable parent, who was a drug addict. This boy has never had chance to get health insurance, and I am unsure exactly why, when he was laying in hospital for several days (not able to pay insurance or tax), he should, under your system, have just been put on the street.

I am happy to pay for the healthcare of that child, and more crucially, I am happy to force everyone in this country to.
That is a special case, and of course I wouldn't be against a fund for helping out children such as him. I'm not entirely heartless.

Needless to say, though, I'm not quite as happy-go-lucky as you are in spending others money, no matter how charitable the cause. Morality ends where the gun begins.
Morality comes from the barrel of a gun, or the tip of a spear.

Immoraility is simply the ethics of the conquered.
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The Ruescher Empire
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Buh
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Northern Chittowa
Oct 1 2009, 11:30 PM
On the note of Russia and F4U stating that its economy couldn't handle it, i just want to state that a wartime eonomy is completely different from that of peacetime...I wouldn't underestimate it if i was you...
That is true NC, but remember Russia in WW1? Ya I think we all remember what happened.
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Dupitable
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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Completely diferent nations and as such a completely irrelevant comparison.
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Blue Blessed Dolphins
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Professor
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JB, being around smokers your entire life changed it for me. And first beer I had....loved it. Along with first liqueur I had.....loved it. It was cognac though.............
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Joe Bobs
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GRADF High General | FRA Arch Chancellor
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Old Zertaxia
Oct 1 2009, 11:13 PM
Joe Bobs
Oct 1 2009, 11:05 PM
Old Z, I think you hit the nail on the head: "And that malarky about the good of the many is just an excuse for oppressing individual rights." A murky issue which I, and I'm sure many, have opinions on both sides of. But this is the underlying conflict of our argument. I don't imagine I can persuade you or that you can persuade me, and we probably both know the arguments on both sides anyway.
Yes.

I almost always go for the individual above the group.
Except when it comes to the Smoking Ban. :p

BBD: Wow, I guess maybe your taste buds matured early or something.

RE: Dup and Old Z's comments: I'm definately not getting into a debate on what the nature of morality is. We'll never get it finished!

You'll have noticed in the last few days my appetite for arguing has subsided massively; this is because I've started back at uni and started my new job. Suddenly I have to get up 4 hours earlier. lol.
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fighter4u
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our land is fill with blood may our people know only love.....
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Joe Bobs
Oct 1 2009, 11:05 PM
Firstly, Dup's statistics are correct, I don't know where you got yours from f4u.

Secondly, true, Russia could not fight a war with major powers (Western Europe, US, China) today. But that's thinking about conventional, traditional warfare. Cold wars are not so costly (yes the last cold war was costly because of arms race/space race, but this is not necessarily needed for a cold war) as you just support the wars of smaller states.

I don't think Russia's economic situation is sustainable - no industry based on ore and energy extraction is in the long run. Such economies normally evolve into industrial economies. This is not possible in Russia, where attempts at industrialised economy have already failed. I have already gone into detail over the basic geopolitical problem which Russia cannot possibly solve (Moscow is simply not in a good spot). In addition, its demographic problems spell doom. It's population is declining rapidly, as the rest of Europe's is, but it's economy cannot handle it in the same way as the service-based economy of Western Europe can.

f4u, I don't know what your point is. In your first post it sounded like you were saying you thought Russia would be powerful and in your second it sounds like you're saying the opposite.

And you can have a military based economy without being at war all the time - admittedly constant war makes it more plausible to the public regarding why defense contractors get huge subsidies. So long as defense is subsidised it can help an economy grow.


I got it from a magazine(which I can't remember the name of right now) from where I get my hair cut. Anyway, they did a article featuring Russia, where they got to talk with the Prime Minster Putin. Maybe it a few years out of date.

Yeah, my point is Russia was only a military power in the Second World War and once the cold war started they had no chance.



And NC, you do have a point. But can you really see a war happening in the future between Russia and who ever?
Edited by fighter4u, Oct 3 2009, 03:23 AM.
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Northern Chittowa
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The Grand Old Duke
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Yes it is perfectly possible. I admit it may not be too likely, but it is more than possible that one day we could see it, or at least another cold war.
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Joe Bobs
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GRADF High General | FRA Arch Chancellor
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I think another cold war is fairly likely.

f4u, the easiest way to find a stat is look on wikipedia and then go to their source website and check it out there. Most stuff like this is taken form the UN's website (or IMF or World Bank).

Another fantastic source is the CIA factbook! Really brilliant.
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Dupitable
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How do you like THAT side boob?
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Quote:
 
Yeah, my point is Russia was only a military power in the Second World War and once the cold war started they had no chance.


Please, please, please research things before you say them.

What you are saying is simply wrong.
Edited by Dupitable, Oct 3 2009, 05:30 PM.
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The Ruescher Empire
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Buh
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I agree with Dup on that comment....thats just a wrong comment.....
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fighter4u
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our land is fill with blood may our people know only love.....
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The Ruescher Empire
Oct 7 2009, 07:20 PM
I agree with Dup on that comment....thats just a wrong comment.....
Yeah, but think about it. (And this is all I'm going to say now) could Russia really hold onto whatever they took once they rolled past West Germany? And this time they wouldn't be able to starve Britain out. But whatever you guys are the experts.. :Truce:

Also it was the Reader Digest. Anal rape me.
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