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| Continuation from 'General OOC' | ||
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| Topic Started: 21st April 2014 - 06:25 PM (454 Views) | ||
| CGJ | 21st April 2014 - 06:25 PM Post #1 | |
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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Time to continue on from the end of this topic.
I have to disagree with this point. While we dominated the slave trade, we were also one of the leading countries behind its abolition (post-Wlberforce). The slave trade was banned in 1807 and all slavery (perhaps aside from India, which was under the control of the EIC and not the British government) was banned in the Empire by the mid-1830s. As for concentration camps, the word 'invented' is perhaps misused here. The reasoning behind the establishment of he camps in the Boer War were completely separate and are almost indistinguishable to Nazi Concentration Camps. Yes, it was wrong, as was many of the things British soldiers did during the two Boer wars, but the problems with the concentration camps mainly arose due to mismanagement. As for stealing half the world's wealth? There's not much fun in having an Empire if you're not going to loot the place, is there? No Greece, you can't have your marbles back Edited by CGJ, 24th April 2014 - 11:58 PM.
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| NordicPeoples | 21st April 2014 - 07:00 PM Post #2 | |
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The fact the two things were used for separate purposes does not change the fact that it was the British who first used the term and established their use, which inspired Heydrich. If you visit the Wansee conference venue outside Berlin you will see documents where Heydrich sites the Boer War as an example of how to deal with the Jews. The fact that the Germans took them to an ultimate conclusion doesn't dilute the fact that we inflicted great horror and suffering on people. You may say it was mismanagement , however people like Lizzie van Zyl didn't just suddenly become this malnourished. (For those unaware of Lizzie Van Zyl this is her picture just days before her death from starvation. Her father was a Boer who refused to surrender so Lizzie and her mother where placed in a concentration camp on the lowest form of rations (Estimated at around 600calories a day) despite being this malnourished she was then refused medical treatment for Typhus. As she failed to speak English she was labelled an "idiot and a nuisance" I've put the picture in a spoiler as for the more Squamish amongst us may not wish to see such an emaciated figure. WARNING:- IMAGE OF SEVERE MALNURISHED Spoiler: click to toggle That does not happen because of mismanagement, that was to do with a choice made to starve inmates to punish relatives fighting the British. Today we would call it a war crime just as they did in the Nuremberg Trials. Around 27,000 Boers and 15,000 Black South Africans died in those camps because of the methods used by the British. As for slavery William Wilberforce's roll has been much exaggerated over the years. The Sugar and cotton trade was no longer a big money spinner, India was producing more cotton than the Southern USA at the time, wars between England and France disrupted the Atlantic trade between the UK and the USA, and it was actually cheaper to simply buy sugar produced using non-slaves from places like Brazil. Politically speaking Wilberforce was merely the mouthpiece of the Clapham Sect, it was campaigners like Thomas Clarkson, Henrietta More, Granville Sharp etc that provided Wilberforce with the ammunition to take on Parliament. Despite saying we were a leading light behind ending it this doesn't wipe out the fact that we as a nation kidnapped an estimated 6-10million people and sold them each for a modern day equivalent of £65. Now in no way am I saying me as a Brit (or you....not sure if you are CGJ) should go round feeling sorry about this as clearly we didn't do it. But for the nation its a dark period of our history regardless of what comes after. |
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| NordicPeoples | 21st April 2014 - 07:01 PM Post #3 | |
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APologise, house mate using PC | |
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| DaveIronside | 21st April 2014 - 07:01 PM Post #4 | |
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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Sorry forgot to log the housemate Nord out before typing that. | |
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| Elpidia | 21st April 2014 - 07:26 PM Post #5 | |
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The Rt. Hon.
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What have you done CGJ? We already came to the conclusion that all nations have done good and bad stuff, now you're stirring it up. Tsk, tsk.
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The Rt. Hon. Marquess Elpidia - Factbook - NS Page - EBC - Vignettes - Characters | ||
| DaveIronside | 21st April 2014 - 07:32 PM Post #6 | |
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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Not disagreeing that Britain hasn't done great stuff, but the problem is we're slowly diluting down the bad stuff to create an image of glourious Britannia, saviour of the world, upholder of honour etc etc. When quiet clearly in the past we were massive scum bags, its the whole politicisation of History that annoys me. Frankly I think when you look at the great minds we've produced, such as Brunel, Turing , Hawking, Newton etc etc. | |
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| Arpeggi | 21st April 2014 - 07:47 PM Post #7 | |
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All nations have done bad and good things so don't talk sh*t BOOM debate settled ![]() However, I personally believe that the good does not outweigh the bad in any way. |
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| DaveIronside | 21st April 2014 - 07:57 PM Post #8 | |
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Bendix Landau (1880-1939)
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Historically speaking I agree with you Arpeggi. The problem comes with the sins of former generations being made to feel like the responsibility of another. I went on a really cool educational exchange last year to Berlin with the Holocaust Educational Trust, and it was one thing speaking to the German students that they mentioned. That people still say things like "you" carried out the Holocaust. Nations should be aware of their past evils but not made to keep carrying the burden. | |
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| CGJ | 21st April 2014 - 07:58 PM Post #9 | |
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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Of course, the term was coined by the British, my point was that it's unfair to say the British 'invented' the concentration camp – particularly when the word is closely related to Nazi Concentration Camps. As for Heydrich, it doesn't matter how inspired he was by camps during the Boer War, his intent and the British intent were very different. So no, while it doesn't dilute the suffering that was caused by the British, it does alleviate the blame that can be placed on the British government for 'inventing' concentration camps. As for Lizzie Van Zyl, her story is tragic and is (unfortunately) not unique. Both mismanagement and bad management on all levels played a role here, with the actions of Kitchener being absolutely devastating on the people living in the camps that were, at the time, more like refugee camps. Directly relating to the camps, and with LVZ, I would agree that what she and many others went through are worthy of war crimes. Actions such as the slaughtering of livestock, the burning of fields and poisoning of wells, to only then force the displaced peoples into the camps, were absolutely horrendous. With regards to Wilber, of course his actions have been exaggerated, but his specific role had nothing to do with his role; merely the time period he fought in it. The slave trade was awful, but regardless of the motives, we still pushed for its abolition. Let's just be flag the geopolitical reasoning behind it was beneficial to the cause – otherwise it may have taken a lot, lot longer. |
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| Arpeggi | 21st April 2014 - 08:16 PM Post #10 | |
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Newer generations shouldn't have to worry about it, but unfortunately it's placed on the younger generations by the old ones who did it :/. |
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| Conflagration | 24th April 2014 - 08:24 PM Post #11 | |
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No way you actually said this! Are you an actual sociopath or have you just become so jaded that it's easier to pretend other people are of no consequence? |
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| CGJ | 25th April 2014 - 12:01 AM Post #12 | |
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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The last comment was said in jest, as looting their colonies is generally what empires do. |
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| Conflagration | 25th April 2014 - 11:05 PM Post #13 | |
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Listen up, Russell Crowe: you might be a fancy-pants act-or, with your hat and your facial hair, but the glib "it's ironic cuz that shit's actually bad" actually normalizes that kind of behavior :-( i'll get off the soapbox now, seeing as you need the wood for your ark. |
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| CGJ | 25th April 2014 - 11:47 PM Post #14 | |
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Franz Kaufmann (1886-1944)
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At least it would do, if it were still ongoing (let's avoid getting too deeply involved with the Crimean situation) - but colonialism, in the traditional sense, is dead. |
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| Ivan I | 26th April 2014 - 10:17 PM Post #15 | |
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Lets please stay away from Crimea, people on this site and at my university ask me every single day | |
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^ 2:31 PM Jul 11
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May the force be with you.















